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Timo Werner


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Tuchel has given him long enough to play his way back into form and its just not working. The team lacks attacking focus and needs a forward right now. We are entering the business end of the season and need to give Tammy or Giroud a chance. 

I wouldn't sell him just yet.

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I watched Werner maybe 10 times last season, and he was a different player. At leipzig he would pop up all across the front line, to get involved in the build up. Now he wasnt doing anything spectacular in this phase, pretty much just dropping the ball back into midfield and spinning off. Very rarely did he miscontrol the ball. Then he would generally just look for balls over the top and he would get on the end of them, and bring runners into play, win free kicks, or get a shot away. His touch wasnt perfect, occasionally he would take the ball in strange directions, and he missed chances aswell, but he always looked a threat, and he scored plenty of goals.

The Werner we are watching now looks completely lost, he either doesnt get involved in the build up, or when he does, he is trying beat players and play cute 1'2's, and ends up losing the ball. I know teams like to sit deep against us, but that is rarely the case for 90 minutes, and there are many occasions when Werner has space to run into, he is showing for the ball, (picture the offside goal vs Liverpool), but the ball doesnt come, or it the pass is terrible. He isnt the only one that suffers from this, Mount and Havertz found the same issues last night. 

We wont see the best of Werner, unless we have someone David Luiz or Fabregas who can spot and execute balls over the top to make use of his pace and movement. His confidence is shot, and i think that is a combination from his missing chances, and the way we play not really suiting his game. 

The next time he plays though, and we are playing the ball between the back 3 and centre midfielders, just watch the forward players, especially Werner, and count how many times, a ball couldve been played but didnt. 

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4 minutes ago, big blue said:

I watched Werner maybe 10 times last season, and he was a different player. At leipzig he would pop up all across the front line, to get involved in the build up. Now he wasnt doing anything spectacular in this phase, pretty much just dropping the ball back into midfield and spinning off. Very rarely did he miscontrol the ball. Then he would generally just look for balls over the top and he would get on the end of them, and bring runners into play, win free kicks, or get a shot away. His touch wasnt perfect, occasionally he would take the ball in strange directions, and he missed chances aswell, but he always looked a threat, and he scored plenty of goals.

The Werner we are watching now looks completely lost, he either doesnt get involved in the build up, or when he does, he is trying beat players and play cute 1'2's, and ends up losing the ball. I know teams like to sit deep against us, but that is rarely the case for 90 minutes, and there are many occasions when Werner has space to run into, he is showing for the ball, (picture the offside goal vs Liverpool), but the ball doesnt come, or it the pass is terrible. He isnt the only one that suffers from this, Mount and Havertz found the same issues last night. 

We wont see the best of Werner, unless we have someone David Luiz or Fabregas who can spot and execute balls over the top to make use of his pace and movement. His confidence is shot, and i think that is a combination from his missing chances, and the way we play not really suiting his game. 

The next time he plays though, and we are playing the ball between the back 3 and centre midfielders, just watch the forward players, especially Werner, and count how many times, a ball couldve been played but didnt. 

I agree - and have been banging on the same point for ages....but...

for balance, we also need to point out that when he is getting the ball played and chances, he is missing them or his control/first touch means the chance is gone.

look at mounts goal against WBA. Any striker should have buried it, instead Werner wasted the opportunity, and in the end a hopeful stab back to mount for him the assist. 

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About to give up on him. He's scored once since the first week of November and he's not getting any better in terms of general play either.

Confidence is clearly at bedrock and I don't see how that changes at this point unless he goes back to the Bundesliga.

 

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7 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

I agree - and have been banging on the same point for ages....but...

for balance, we also need to point out that when he is getting the ball played and chances, he is missing them or his control/first touch means the chance is gone.

look at mounts goal against WBA. Any striker should have buried it, instead Werner wasted the opportunity, and in the end a hopeful stab back to mount for him the assist. 

Totally his finishing needs to be better, and I think if he was getting 4 or 5 balls through over top per game, not necessarily 1 on 1 chances, but just balls for him the run onto, like Sheffield United away, I think he would get his groove back. It just seems at the moment he maybe gets 1 or 2 decent balls a game, sometimes he doesnt get any. It must be hard to find rytham. Its like playing Giroud and putting 1 or 2 crosses in all game, (which we have also done). 

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2 minutes ago, big blue said:

Totally his finishing needs to be better, and I think if he was getting 4 or 5 balls through over top per game, not necessarily 1 on 1 chances, but just balls for him the run onto, like Sheffield United away, I think he would get his groove back. It just seems at the moment he maybe gets 1 or 2 decent balls a game, sometimes he doesnt get any. It must be hard to find rytham. Its like playing Giroud and putting 1 or 2 crosses in all game, (which we have also done). 

Spot on. He's a volume shooter. You can't play slow build up football and expect him to convert the one chance he has. We knew this when we bought him. This is the thing I find so frustrating. Every mug punter and forum poster who watched a few games can see that he wasn't clinical. We spent millions on recruitment. How are the experts not seeing this?

My new line with players in Germany is if Bayern don't fight you for them, then maybe ask why that's the case.

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I'm not watching as much just recently though have seen him passing from goal scoring positions to give another player an assist.

When you have lost your goal scoring mentality that is not the worst attribute. 

I would expect him to leave this season.

 

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5 hours ago, ducavis said:

I do wonder if you got rid of both Kovacic & Jorginho, stuck a DM next to Kante we might see a change in our approach and get the best out of him. We need to move the ball upfield quickly and do away with the high possession stats, both Kovacic & Jorginho have high possession stats but don’t create enough on the ball. Liverpool are having the same issues with Thiago in the middle of the park.

Not that is happens as often as we would like but Jorgis through ball for Mounts goal was superb. Had that gone to Werner he would have either missed the ball or knocked it out for a goal kick.

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13 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Not that is happens as often as we would like but Jorgis through ball for Mounts goal was superb. Had that gone to Werner he would have either missed the ball or knocked it out for a goal kick.

Let’s not get carried away with the Jorginho pass. It was not a ‘through ball’ but a simple 10 yd unobstructed pass to the feet of Mount who had his back to goal. What Mount made from that pass was brilliant with the turn and shot. Now the big thing for me was that the pass was forward. 

Those passes are played all over the park as routine. 

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3 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

I'm not watching as much just recently though have seen him passing from goal scoring positions to give another player an assist.

When you have lost your goal scoring mentality that is not the worst attribute. 

I would expect him to leave this season.

 

Wouldn’t give up on him that easy, he reminds me of Suarez in his 1st season with Liverpool. Suarez scored like 11 goals in his 1st season and everything seemed to be hitting the bar, straight at the goalie or just missing by inches, like Werner he never stopped trying. In his 2nd season he hit 20+ league goals, and 30+ league goals in his final season with them.

We need to sort out our slow possession football, and the middle of the park for that to happen.

 

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7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

He hasn't been good enough, he doesn't even make runs anymore, at least Havertz comes deep and comes to the wing to help but all I see from Werner is missing a clear header after a good cross by Mount and just losing possession after a poor first touch or just after randomly going forward with the ball and getting stuck...

I thought with that chance was maybe he was expecting Havertz to go for it because he was in front of him, is about 10ft bigger than him and is supposedly good in the air but he didn’t even jump for it. Maybe he shouted for him to leave it though, I might just be making excuses for him at this point. 

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34 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Wouldn’t give up on him that easy, he reminds me of Suarez in his 1st season with Liverpool. Suarez scored like 11 goals in his 1st season and everything seemed to be hitting the bar, straight at the goalie or just missing by inches, like Werner he never stopped trying. In his 2nd season he hit 20+ league goals, and 30+ league goals in his final season with them.

We need to sort out our slow possession football, and the middle of the park for that to happen.

 

True but the actual difference in technical ability, (touch and ball control), between Suarez and Werner is massive. It is what bothers me most about Werner.

We have had technically inept centre forwards before. JFH was a prime example, but he was a natural born finisher and that masked a lot of his flaws. Werner has not looked like a natural finisher to me so far but I agree ducavis, it is still early days. I do think he needs a spell out of the side for a few games though.

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I wouldn't give up on him just yet. He puts in a shift every game, he tries (and fails) and is providing assists. He needs to be rested, I agree, but I still think that he can become a good striker for us. For me the concern is not him missing, but our midfield being so sluggish and creating zero chances, not being able to put passes through to Werner on a regular basis when he makes the move to run behind the defenders. He did carry danger against Liverpool because we played that way, and if it wasn't for a stupid VAR decision, he would have had a goal. He needs to get a rest but overall we need to start playing faster.

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5 minutes ago, RMH said:

I wouldn't give up on him just yet. He puts in a shift every game, he tries (and fails) and is providing assists. He needs to be rested, I agree, but I still think that he can become a good striker for us. For me the concern is not him missing, but our midfield being so sluggish and creating zero chances, not being able to put passes through to Werner on a regular basis when he makes the move to run behind the defenders. He did carry danger against Liverpool because we played that way, and if it wasn't for a stupid VAR decision, he would have had a goal. He needs to get a rest but overall we need to start playing faster.

Agree

For me it is decision time. We need to either adapt the teams style and tactics to suit the strength of the majority of our players (ie, faster, more progressive, less touches, more direct football), or sell those players , give Jorginho a new contract and buy new players that better fit the slow, tiki taka, Barca/sarriball/pep lite possession boreball that we play most of the time. 

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47 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Agree

For me it is decision time. We need to either adapt the teams style and tactics to suit the strength of the majority of our players (ie, faster, more progressive, less touches, more direct football), or sell those players , give Jorginho a new contract and buy new players that better fit the slow, tiki taka, Barca/sarriball/pep lite possession boreball that we play most of the time. 

Pep scrapped the possession style of football 2 seasons ago, and Barca have been more direct since last season. We are the only team that seem to be going down that route. 

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38 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Agree

For me it is decision time. We need to either adapt the teams style and tactics to suit the strength of the majority of our players (ie, faster, more progressive, less touches, more direct football), or sell those players , give Jorginho a new contract and buy new players that better fit the slow, tiki taka, Barca/sarriball/pep lite possession boreball that we play most of the time. 

Yes, I agree. But I think the problem lies in the board's culture of hire-sack-hire of coaches. That's why I was so against the sacking of Lampard and I would not want the Club to sack Tuchel before the end of next season (and even keep him a second complete season). If the board keeps changing coaches with different mentalities and styles, we end up with the present team, where we have a midfield that partly fits Sarri/Pep style and a new shiny forward line that fits better the more fluid, fast style Lampard wanted to play (or even Conte's). I think that Tuchel is trying so far to balance this obvious problem and I suppose he hopes he can get and sell players to fit his ideas in summer. I hope he goes for the more fluid, fast football, which would mean changing the midfielders or adapting them to a faster pace. But agree that it is time to decide how we want to play.

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If Werner was a youth team product I am sure he would have been dropped by now. By comparison look at how quickly the likes of CHO have been benched. I have to think Werner's price tag plays a big part in his continual starts. There is no doubt that he always gives 100%, but he looks about as likely to score right now as Robert Fleck did after 10-12 games of his Chelsea career. I am not ready to give up on him but equally I don't think he should be starting regularly at the moment.

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1 hour ago, RMH said:

I wouldn't give up on him just yet. He puts in a shift every game, he tries (and fails) and is providing assists. He needs to be rested, I agree, but I still think that he can become a good striker for us. For me the concern is not him missing, but our midfield being so sluggish and creating zero chances, not being able to put passes through to Werner on a regular basis when he makes the move to run behind the defenders. He did carry danger against Liverpool because we played that way, and if it wasn't for a stupid VAR decision, he would have had a goal. He needs to get a rest but overall we need to start playing faster.

The thing is, I don't even think he is a bad footballer, I actually think he is really good, but it all depends on the system, and our system doesn't suit him.

I'll say what I said the other day, unless we change our style of football, then I see no future for him here. He just doesn't suit slow possession football, it's not his game. If we're not going to change, then we may as well just sell him and bring somebody in who is more suited to our style of football. 

It's nice to be getting assists from Werner, but he was bought in to score goals. If he can't score the goals for us, then he will need to be replaced by somebody who can.

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50 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

The thing is, I don't even think he is a bad footballer, I actually think he is really good, but it all depends on the system, and our system doesn't suit him.

I'll say what I said the other day, unless we change our style of football, then I see no future for him here. He just doesn't suit slow possession football, it's not his game. If we're not going to change, then we may as well just sell him and bring somebody in who is more suited to our style of football. 

It's nice to be getting assists from Werner, but he was bought in to score goals. If he can't score the goals for us, then he will need to be replaced by somebody who can.

Spot on. This was a classic case of a square peg signed to fit a round hole. I imagine a direct result of the club's policy where the board sign players independently of the football team manager. We have had a growing number of misfit signings of this type in recent years.

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33 minutes ago, nonotnowjim said:

Agree

For me it is decision time. We need to either adapt the teams style and tactics to suit the strength of the majority of our players (ie, faster, more progressive, less touches, more direct football), or sell those players , give Jorginho a new contract and buy new players that better fit the slow, tiki taka, Barca/sarriball/pep lite possession boreball that we play most of the time. 

 

4 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

There is actually a song about him, madness... the pain...

 

FFS why is this f**king guy still starting?  German favoritism?  The dude has the yips and needs to sit.

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2 hours ago, nonotnowjim said:

Agree

For me it is decision time. We need to either adapt the teams style and tactics to suit the strength of the majority of our players (ie, faster, more progressive, less touches, more direct football), or sell those players , give Jorginho a new contract and buy new players that better fit the slow, tiki taka, Barca/sarriball/pep lite possession boreball that we play most of the time. 

It's TOO LATE for that, our player e.g. Mount, Havertz, James, CHO, Pulisic are fast players full of youth and energy and so is Chilwell, Kovacic, Kante and even Werner himself, so to buy players around Jorginho isn't an option.

The logical way is to buy a world class CB, play with the 4 at the backline and wingers and build the team around Mount and Havertz as they are our future world class players along with CHO and Pulisic.

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27 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It's TOO LATE for that, our player e.g. Mount, Havertz, James, CHO, Pulisic are fast players full of youth and energy and so is Chilwell, Kovacic, Kante and even Werner himself, so to buy players around Jorginho isn't an option.

The logical way is to buy a world class CB, play with the 4 at the backline and wingers and build the team around Mount and Havertz as they are our future world class players along with CHO and Pulisic.

I agree - but we need to slap into the team the requirement to play it forward quickly and stop the pointless tippy tappy crap.

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