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Hard to say. For me it's not just about the players. Teams with a lot worse centre backs than us don't concede goals from set pieces or on the counter. Frank has to tighten up our approach, Kante back to his proper spot was a good start but you can't play two players behind the ball like we did yesterday and not get stung on the counter.

In terms of players, for me an organising centre back is probably the key thing but there aren't many available. Funnily enough, we could have used Gary Cahill this year I think. Thanks Sarri.

 

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9 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Hard to say. For me it's not just about the players. Teams with a lot worse centre backs than us don't concede goals from set pieces or on the counter. Frank has to tighten up our approach, Kante back to his proper spot was a good start but you can't play two players behind the ball like we did yesterday and not get stung on the counter.

In terms of players, for me an organising centre back is probably the key thing but there aren't many available. Funnily enough, we could have used Gary Cahill this year I think. Thanks Sarri.

 

You're right about Cahill, but at the time i was not to worried when he left.

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We are desperate, and i mean desperate for a proper leader back there. Right now, we have five individuals if you count Kepa running around like headless chicken on a weekly basis. There is no evidence of even a sign of any kind of leadership or organizational abilities. Rudiger was supposed to be that man but he’s massively failed on every level.

One can point fingers at the manager and claim he needs to set the defense up differently. But the fact of the matter is that large parts of the defensive organization happens on the field. Every good defense has a proper leader back that that organizes and leads the unit as one coherent unit.
That’s why Van Dijk transformed Liverpool’s defense from a poor one to a fantastic one. And that’s why Maguire is about to do the same at Manchester United. Even though he’s nowhere near Van Dijk’s level individually he is a leader and an organizer and his lifted their defense by many levels. And that’s what we are sorely lacking.

From the premiership I believe Soyuncu and Declan Rice have the potential to become that kind of leader for us. Now, they will both be expensive but all our rivals have spent a lot of money on CB’s lately and it would be naive to think we can get away with it without doing the same.

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I am willing to talk about changing personnel in our goal and d-line. Last night we looked like a comedy-tour back there. Our confidence is low as it can be defending corners for example... One game yes but you will never see Liverpool stage this stand-up special we did for the viewers. Embarrassing.

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Posted (edited)

However unrealistic a centre back partnership between Mancini and Soyuncu (or better yet, Laporte) would be a statement of intent but I seriously doubt we'll spend £100m+ on two centre backs.

I'm sure we'll score goals next season but without an established left sided centre back we risk falling further behind imho.

After last night I wouldn't be too disappointed if we sign Lovren. :hiding:

Edited by the special one
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1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

Hard to say. For me it's not just about the players. Teams with a lot worse centre backs than us don't concede goals from set pieces or on the counter. Frank has to tighten up our approach, Kante back to his proper spot was a good start but you can't play two players behind the ball like we did yesterday and not get stung on the counter.

In terms of players, for me an organising centre back is probably the key thing but there aren't many available. Funnily enough, we could have used Gary Cahill this year I think. Thanks Sarri.

 

What was Jody Morris' youth side's defensive record like? 

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There's plenty of centrebacks that can potentially improve our backline. I say 'potentially' because no one knows how well any given player will do in a new club.

Koulibaly (Napoli), Upamecano (RB Leipzig), Dias (Benfica), Milenkovic (Fiorentina), Luiz Felipe (Lazio), Soyuncu (Leicester), Demiral (Juventus), Jose Gimenez (Atletico) just to name a few.

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2 minutes ago, haviet1 said:

Put Rudi on the bench, give Zouma, Tomori, and Azpi sometimes in CB.

when we were shipping goals earlier in the season, alot of fans were saying rudiger coming back will fix things. 

Tomori made some bad errors aswell, luckily most werent punished.

Its always tbe case here, when a player is out of team for a while they become better. None of the 4 are particularly good defenders. All have pros and cons, it doesnt matter which 2 play, it will be largely thd same story, as Lamps has found this season, since he has tried all combinations, and all have had poor dodplays at some point.

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9 minutes ago, big blue said:

when we were shipping goals earlier in the season, alot of fans were saying rudiger coming back will fix things. 

Tomori made some bad errors aswell, luckily most werent punished.

Its always tbe case here, when a player is out of team for a while they become better. None of the 4 are particularly good defenders. All have pros and cons, it doesnt matter which 2 play, it will be largely thd same story, as Lamps has found this season, since he has tried all combinations, and all have had poor dodplays at some point.

 

i agreed completely. ppl also said when Kante, RLC, and CHO comes back form injuries, this team would be amazing. 

the perception is that the guys that are not playing are always better than the guys that are on the pitch.

but you have to ask yourself this question: how many CBs out there that are significantly better than what you have already? and how much $$$ would you have to pay for them?

the short solution really is to upgrade your coaching staff, while keeping an eye out and scout for that next VVD.

a properly coached unit is always better than any individual talents.

 

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Declan Rice rumors doing the rounds today. 

I think Tomori can do the job but the question is who plays with him. I've been on the Christensen bandwagon for years and I'm not ready to get off yet.

Rudi has always been a 3rd CB to me. Not good enough to play in a back 4 at the level we're aiming for. I think Zouma is the same. We've all see Zouma running down attackers and wiping them out but for some reason he is no where near as dominating defending crosses or in the box as he should be. 

Declan Rice would be the simplest answer. He's already friends with Mount and we know he isn't staying at West Ham much longer. The transition period would be essentially nil if we brought him in. Is he actually a CB is the question. 

It's hard to assume a player abroad will slide in and play at a high level unless they're a top player. Koulibaly has been at the top of the list for a few years but he'd likely be the most expensive defender signing in history. 

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Skriniar would be my first choice, but I can't see him leaving Inter. Maybe Ruben Dias?

We need to go all out on a top level defensive coach as well as our tactics are just awful. Getting rid of this zonal marking bullsh*t would be a good start

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39 minutes ago, PloKoon13 said:

Our questionable recent defensive record has a clear source - how are our centre backs supposed to know what to do without Jorginho's pointing?

Turns out he’s been pointing and laughing at how f**king sh*t they are all along. 

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Quite frankly last night was an absolute sh*t show and a few players need to be dropped for them to realise how bad that performance actually was. Both CB's need to be benched as its embarrassing that they literally lost every battle against Antonio in the 2nd half, the lad was incredible in winning all the hoiks towards him keeping in mind these were not fabregas esque passes coming towards him but just ugly hoiks from the back. 

If Tomori is not quite ready I would transition Azpi into Central defence and partner him with Zouma, having someone with a brain in Central Defence may actually work. 

Abraham may also need some time to reflect as he was terrible and Girouds presence at set pieces will be crucial if we drop both CB's. 

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I think the issue with the CB's run deeper than with them personally. While I fully accept they're not the best set of defenders in the world they haven't been dealt a good hand, remember even JT himself looked pretty pants in similar circumstances (AVB's highline).

Firstly Lampard keeps chopping and changing. We had a decent record in the Autumn with Zouma and Tomori and apart from set pieces we looked pretty solid, why did we mess with that so soon? Likewise before the break Zouma and Rudi were forming a solid partnership and we kept back to back clean sheets (pretty easily as well).

Pick Zouma with either Fik or Rudi (as they're the pairs that have worked) and stick with them.

Also there's Kepa's form this season and our wastefulness at the other end, again for all our defenses bad moments, how many times now have we dominated a game only to drop points due to one or sometimes both of those factors? It puts a lot of pressure on the defense knowing they can be good for all bar one moment of the match and that still not be enough far too many times.

If we can sort one or both of those issues out all of a sudden the problem isn't even half as bad. That said I do want upgrades on them at some point but I think better attack and Kepa upgrade will help improve things a lot quicker than buying new CBs. 

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Posted (edited)
14 hours ago, Argo said:

I think the issue with the CB's run deeper than with them personally. While I fully accept they're not the best set of defenders in the world they haven't been dealt a good hand, remember even JT himself looked pretty pants in similar circumstances (AVB's highline).

Firstly Lampard keeps chopping and changing. We had a decent record in the Autumn with Zouma and Tomori and apart from set pieces we looked pretty solid, why did we mess with that so soon? Likewise before the break Zouma and Rudi were forming a solid partnership and we kept back to back clean sheets (pretty easily as well).

Pick Zouma with either Fik or Rudi (as they're the pairs that have worked) and stick with them.

Also there's Kepa's form this season and our wastefulness at the other end, again for all our defenses bad moments, how many times now have we dominated a game only to drop points due to one or sometimes both of those factors? It puts a lot of pressure on the defense knowing they can be good for all bar one moment of the match and that still not be enough far too many times.

If we can sort one or both of those issues out all of a sudden the problem isn't even half as bad. That said I do want upgrades on them at some point but I think better attack and Kepa upgrade will help improve things a lot quicker than buying new CBs. 

Agree with a lot of that although the run we had with Zouma and tomori at centre back, wasnt much better than what we have seen before or since. We conceded 13 in 11 games. 

At the time, i can see how lamps was hoping Rudiger coming back would improve that, so i think it was more than reasonable for him to change things up, but as we have seen since, things have largely stayed the same. 

Just to add, Zouma and Rudiger are currently on 3 back to back clean sheets against 3 good sides in Liverpool, Everton, and Leicester. 

I think we might see that partnership again tomorrow.

Edited by big blue
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  • coco changed the title to New Center Backs?

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