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Players to sell (evergreen "deadwood" thread)


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3 hours ago, Valerie said:

I would guess they will get more time at a mid-table club where they have a contract for at least 3 years, than at Chelsea or during a 1 season loan, where the manager isn't much interested in playing a youngster (think Ampadu at Leipzig). If you doubt they will get decent playing time at a mid-table club, then you can count of them getting even less time at Chelsea.

Well, Ampadu got quite a lot of game time at Sheffield while on loan, it was just unfortunate that Sheffield did not play very well last season. I expect Gilmour to get plenty of game time at Norwich, again he's gone on loan. I'm not saying whether these academy players should stay at Chelsea or not, as in some cases it will be the Club that does not see a future for them, and it is totally up to them to choose their professional path. But at 18 years you can't expect to go to a Premier League team and walk straight into the starting 11, whether it is Chelsea, Leeds or Brighton, and a little patience could work out as well as it did for Mount, James or (hopefully) Gilmour in the next couple of seasons. But I have no idea what's going on behind the scenes and it may be the Club who is looking at getting some money from the Academy in consultation with the coach team.

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8 hours ago, Valerie said:

 Youngsters leaving us now are impatient to the extent that they want to play. A professional football career last about 15 years, they're not going to be fringe players or go from one loan after another for a quarter of that time. They know how it works at Chelsea: the club will always try and get the best players at every position. If there's a player better than you and suited to the system being used, you're not playing. Better go elsewhere, to a mid-rable club and play every week.

I think for me why i am sad and more with the club on this one is because.. the club has shown this lot the loyalty by investing in them giving them exposure/world class coaching. I think Tino was our player of the year.. unless the club was forcing them to do a 5 year contract i am sure .. there is a pathway for our player of the year that gets talked about. obviously at this point it is conjecture and personally for me since academy grads excite me more a bit of disappointment. But surely our academy boys would have a dream to play for the first team but moving on at 18 just seems to me that they have not even given it a proper shot..

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We've released/sold plenty of academy graduates who all had their fan champions over the years ...

Not an exhaustive list, but 5 minutes on Google and I came up with this lot :

Carlton Cole, Ben Sahar, Michael Woods, Scott Sinclair, Franco di Santo, Josh McEachran, Nathaniel Chalobah, Ryan Bertrand, Michael Mancienne, Miroslav Stoch, Jacob Mellis, Patrick Van Aanholt, Jeffrey Bruma, Gael Kakuta, Fabio Borini, Jacopo Sala, John Swift, George Savile, Nathan Ake, Luca Piazon, Tomas Kalas. Kasey Palmer, Charlie Colkett, Izzy Brown, Ola Aina, Kyle Scott, Marcin Bulka, Fikayo Tomori, Tariq Lamptey, Declan Rice, and Marc Guehi.

None of these guys were considered the right stuff for the Chelsea first team, and very very few have gone on to prove that original decision wrong (I'd argue Ryan Bertrand has had a decent career at top level, Declan Rice at West Ham/England, probably also include Scott Sinclair, although a lot of it was in Scotland, and Nathan Ake, albeit now warming the Man City bench rather than playing). Tomori, Lamptey and possibly Guehi would be a good bet to make the grade .. we shall see over the next few seasons.

The bar is very high to break into the first team at a club like Chelsea, and rightly so.

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5 hours ago, RMH said:

But, are they going to get regular playing time right now in the clubs they are going to or will they be used sparingly as rotation options for one game here and there?

The only thing that assures you game time is performance (or an injury cover selection) - if you are serious about playing for a CL winning club , you gotta be good, so go on loan and make sure your performance doesn’t give the manager any other option than to play you 

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3 hours ago, JM7 said:

Emerson has apparently put a transfer request in. Napoli have offered ‚ā¨10m but we want ‚ā¨20m. Suspect he will be off as well.¬†

I imagine we will get them up to 12-14mill euros and he will be gone.

 

Also:

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumours-news/2021/7/21/22586616/brighton-hove-albion-closing-in-on-deal-for-chelsea-youngster-valentino-livramento-report

Disappointing fee for Bate if true. Was expecting at least 5mill for him, 5mill for Tino and 2 for MPH.

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1 hour ago, Jangz said:

 

I think for me why i am sad and more with the club on this one is because.. the club has shown this lot the loyalty by investing in them giving them exposure/world class coaching. I think Tino was our player of the year.. unless the club was forcing them to do a 5 year contract i am sure .. there is a pathway for our player of the year that gets talked about. obviously at this point it is conjecture and personally for me since academy grads excite me more a bit of disappointment. But surely our academy boys would have a dream to play for the first team but moving on at 18 just seems to me that they have not even given it a proper shot..

The chances of making it to the first team and getting a start regularly are very slim. Those young boys know how it works. This is not about what you think is a proper shot at first team football at Chelsea, this is about what they think is the best way for them to forge a career. And it's not about showing loyalty to the club. At whatever age they come to the academy (and by the way, kids from over the world are recruited into the academy, not all of them are London boys), they're being trained to become a footballer, and already at a very young age they can be released. I don't know the numbers, but you can be certain not all the 8 year olds are still at the club 10 years later. So talking about loyalty is silly, as this is a deal between club and kids: the club teaches and coaches, the kids get a shot at a career with decent or even extremely decent wages, no guarantees though. In return, the club gets either a player and don't have to spend millions of pounds, or they make a few million selling the player.

All this moaning about academy players leaving is incomprehensible. This is how it's always been and nobody batted an eyelid before. So far we haven't sold our own little world class player and come to regret it bitterly. Just look at the recent names @Sexyfootball posted. 

What also puts things in perspective, are the Young POTY winners of the past year (yes, I had to google :wink:)

2020 no award

2019 CHO. Still at the club, struggling to become a regular, not helped by injuries.

2018: Andreas Christensen. Still at the club, 1st team regular

2017 no award says my friend Google

2016 RLC. Still at the club, loads of opportunities in the 1st team, downhill after a dreadful injury.

2015 Kurt Zouma. Still at the club, 1st team regular.

2014 Lewis Baker. Officially still under contract, but on loan since 2015, a different club every season.

2013 Nathan Ake. After 3 loans finally left for Bournemouth, where he carved out an excellent career, and was even signed by City. Not a regular there however. Remember how he was hauled back from his loan at Bournemouth, only to sit on the bench?

2012 Lucas Piazon. I think he obediently showed up every pre-season, to be sent out on loan (7 clubs). Now sold to Braga.

2011 Josh McEachran. He's already 28! Loaned to 5 clubs, didn't impress, at least not consistently. Now at MK Dons. A decent-ish career, but always mentioned in discussions about wasted talent.

2010 entire under 18 team

2009 Michael Mancienne. Oh how we dreamed of his glorious future. Two longish loans, then a bit of a wanderer. Just came back from an American adventure and signed for Burton Albion.

Well, you can look up the list if you're interested in the rest of the lot. There's JT for instance, but also Sam Dalla Bona. But you may catch my drift: the club got it pretty much spot on in their decisions who to keep, who to sell, and who to release. If they really think the next lad threatening to leave is our Ronaldo, then I'm sure they will move heaven and earth to keep him.

Edited by Valerie
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11 hours ago, Valerie said:

The chances of making it to the first team and getting a start regularly are very slim. Those young boys know how it works. This is not about what you think is a proper shot at first team football at Chelsea, this is about what they think is the best way for them to forge a career. And it's not about showing loyalty to the club. At whatever age they come to the academy (and by the way, kids from over the world are recruited into the academy, not all of them are London boys), they're being trained to become a footballer, and already at a very young age they can be released. I don't know the numbers, but you can be certain not all the 8 year olds are still at the club 10 years later. So talking about loyalty is silly, as this is a deal between club and kids: the club teaches and coaches, the kids get a shot at a career with decent or even extremely decent wages, no guarantees though. In return, the club gets either a player and don't have to spend millions of pounds, or they make a few million selling the player.

All this moaning about academy players leaving is incomprehensible. This is how it's always been and nobody batted an eyelid before. So far we haven't sold our own little world class player and come to regret it bitterly. Just look at the recent names @Sexyfootball posted. 

 

Well, you can look up the list if you're interested in the rest of the lot. There's JT for instance, but also Sam Dalla Bona. But you may catch my drift: the club got it pretty much spot on in their decisions who to keep, who to sell, and who to release. If they really think the next lad threatening to leave is our Ronaldo, then I'm sure they will move heaven and earth to keep him.

1) if you have noticed it is not one but 4 highly rated academy players that are leaving. No one bats an eyelid when its a one off case not when 4 decided to not renew, especially when we barely managed to secure CHO a couple of years back

2) You can not compare our academy to what it used to be. The investments we have made/ the scouting networks we have built are only starting to bear fruit in the last 4-5 years. I am not talking about world class players but players who are good enough to be first team players - RLC, Mount, Tammy, Reece, CHO,Ake, Muisala, Boga, Chalobah, etc.. to name a few. Why will a supporter not worry that we have left the next Sancho/ Rice leave.

3) I dont think it is as simple as a club teaches and footballers learn as per a contract. The investment that the club makes over the years in a young player are significant and usually there is an unwritten rule that most players who are showing signs of playing for the first team would stick around to find out if it happens especially since it is quite impossible for most players to figure what the ceiling is at 18. Football is not just a business it is an emotional sport  - supporters give and demand loyalty (most). So they will expect the youngsters who they follow keenly for years in various age groups to give it "this shot"

4) Lastly there is no way to know weather the club tried to move heaven and earth to keep them - and the lads rejected. This is not a knock on the club but an acknowledgement that probably this generation of young players is quite impatient.

 

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2 hours ago, Jangz said:

1) if you have noticed it is not one but 4 highly rated academy players that are leaving. No one bats an eyelid when its a one off case not when 4 decided to not renew, especially when we barely managed to secure CHO a couple of years back

2) You can not compare our academy to what it used to be. The investments we have made/ the scouting networks we have built are only starting to bear fruit in the last 4-5 years. I am not talking about world class players but players who are good enough to be first team players - RLC, Mount, Tammy, Reece, CHO,Ake, Muisala, Boga, Chalobah, etc.. to name a few. Why will a supporter not worry that we have left the next Sancho/ Rice leave.

3) I dont think it is as simple as a club teaches and footballers learn as per a contract. The investment that the club makes over the years in a young player are significant and usually there is an unwritten rule that most players who are showing signs of playing for the first team would stick around to find out if it happens especially since it is quite impossible for most players to figure what the ceiling is at 18. Football is not just a business it is an emotional sport  - supporters give and demand loyalty (most). So they will expect the youngsters who they follow keenly for years in various age groups to give it "this shot"

4) Lastly there is no way to know weather the club tried to move heaven and earth to keep them - and the lads rejected. This is not a knock on the club but an acknowledgement that probably this generation of young players is quite impatient.

 

The academy is a business model, and running a football club has become a business. Millions are pumped around, decisions are made based on money. A club is an employer for the players and for the staff. If it looks like the employer isn't going to give the employee what they want, they move on, and vice versa. This is how most people view their jobs and their employer-employee relationship. Add to this the fact that in the 21st century players have wisened up to the reality of their situation and - like the rest of us - are much more assertive and pro-active when it comes to their careers. Being 18 years old doesn't mean you can't have a clear picture of how you want to proceed for the next few years. Signing for a club like Palace or Leeds or whatever doesn't mean they're settling for mediocrity, it means that is a step they want to take to further their careers, not for the wisful thinking of supporters. It's only us supporters who don't see football as a business, and romaticise everything to do with the club, especially the so-called "one of our own" singing material. Supporters are emotionally invested in a club, and love to bandy around words like "loyalty" and "impatience". For those directly involved, it's their livelihoods.

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On 17/07/2021 at 07:41, axman2526 said:

Certainly not deadwood however 3 youth players may join Marc and big Fik in leaving as they are stalling on new contracts with 1 year left each.

Tino livramento, Lewis Bate and Myles Peart-Harris.

Also Dynel Simeu has ran down his contract and is set to sign with another PL team.

 

https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/chelsea-fc-transfer-rumours-news/2021/7/17/22580858/more-chelsea-academy-stars-could-follow-marc-guehi-in-leaving-the-club-for-good-reports

Myles has gone in a deal similar to Bate's, just waiting on Tino to complete his move too.

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I used to play football manager 2013 (a long time ago) and in that game one of most boring things is when you need to spend time before the season starts getting rid of a bunch of academy players that are suddenly 19-21 years old and 1 star quality.....

I'm not saying that the youth players that left are that bad but I trust in the club's judgement, after all we have a lot of academy players that we still count on and we have a pretty young squad.

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In American sports - well depending on the sport/league - you can release players, even before their contract is up (obviously the league and the language of the contract matter here, there is obviously a lot more that goes into this but I'm just speaking generally). I feel like I never see this in football, so I am assuming it is something that doesn't happen? I'm thinking of someone like Danny Drinkwater, who is on the wrong side of 30, isn't commanding a damn thing in the transfer market and is just sitting on our books. It seems absolutely apparent that we aren't going to be able to move him, and if we do, it's going to be for a fraction - and a small one at that - of what we paid Leicester originally. So, why not just cut ties?? 

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30 minutes ago, chiefBlueCFC said:

In American sports - well depending on the sport/league - you can release players, even before their contract is up (obviously the league and the language of the contract matter here, there is obviously a lot more that goes into this but I'm just speaking generally). I feel like I never see this in football, so I am assuming it is something that doesn't happen? I'm thinking of someone like Danny Drinkwater, who is on the wrong side of 30, isn't commanding a damn thing in the transfer market and is just sitting on our books. It seems absolutely apparent that we aren't going to be able to move him, and if we do, it's going to be for a fraction - and a small one at that - of what we paid Leicester originally. So, why not just cut ties?? 

FIFA who in effect are the controlling  authority when it comes to players and their contracts simply won’t allow clubs to unilaterally end a players contract 

You can sack a player for gross mis conduct but even then the sacking would be subject to appeal. In effect if a club signs a 3 year contract with a player the club can’t move him on unless a contract is cancelled  by mutual consent or a transfer agreed.

When it comes to a player they can leave before a contract ends if they fall within the criteria of either a Webster or in certain circumstances they can apply to have their contract cancelled if they haven’t featured in 10% of first team games but each application is looked on by a case by case basis . There are defined timings that players have to adhere to normally within 15 days of a clubs last comoetive game of a season

Edited by terraloon
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42 minutes ago, terraloon said:

FIFA who in effect are the controlling  authority when it comes to players and their contracts simply won’t allow clubs to unilaterally end a players contract 

You can sack a player for gross mis conduct but even then the sacking would be subject to appeal. In effect if a club signs a 3 year contract with a player the club can’t move him on unless a contract is cancelled  by mutual consent or a transfer agreed.

When it comes to a player they can leave before a contract ends if they fall within the criteria of either a Webster or in certain circumstances they can apply to have their contract cancelled if they haven’t featured in 10% of first team games but each application is looked on by a case by case basis . There are defined timings that players have to adhere to normally within 15 days of a clubs last comoetive game of a season

I figured that this was the case, especially since you basically never hear of a club terminating a contract. Thanks for  the explanation.

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Doing a good job so far selling/releasing players this window, but there are still a lot of fringe players left in the squad that will need to be moved on sharpish.

Academy players are being sold, which is partly what its for - Cultivate young talent and sell them on as not every player can get into the first team.. However there were a couple of names that I didnt want to see go like Bate and Livramento (who actually hasnt gone yet but looks like he will) 

But the likes of Peart-Harris, Guehi were good business as I didnt think they will hit the level to get into the first team anytime soon

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Right stick or twist...

Barkley - keep

RLC - sell

Baba - keep

Emerson - sell

Alonso - keep

Zouma - sell

Drinkwater - sell

Gallager - loan

Zappacosta - sell

Abrahams - sell (unless we can't get another striker)

Broja - loan

Salter Clarke - sell

Miazga - sell

Ugbo - loan

Sarr - loan

Baker - sell

Ampudu - keep

Edited by doctorblue
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Barkley - sell

RLC - keep

Baba - sell

Emerson - sell

Alonso - keep

Zouma - sell

Drinkwater - sell

Gallager - loan

Zappa - sell

Tammy -keep

Broja - Keep

Salter Clarke - sell

Miazga - sell

Ugbo - loan

Sarr - loan

Baker - sell

Ampudu - keep

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On 30/07/2021 at 14:24, doctorblue said:

Right stick or twist...

Barkley - keep

RLC - sell

Baba - keep

Emerson - sell

Alonso - keep

Zouma - sell

Drinkwater - sell

Gallager - loan

Zappacosta - sell

Abrahams - sell (unless we can't get another striker)

Broja - loan

Salter Clarke - sell

Miazga - sell

Ugbo - loan

Sarr - loan

Baker - sell

Ampudu - keep

Would sell them all except Gallagher, Broja, Ampadu (loan them) and promote Sarr to 1st team (if we sell Zouma and 1 other CB we currently have)

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5 hours ago, junkymunky said:

Would sell them all except Gallagher, Broja, Ampadu (loan them) and promote Sarr to 1st team (if we sell Zouma and 1 other CB we currently have)

Sarr has no future with us.

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In midfield After what I see today RLC gets the 4th midfield spot vacated by Billy that’s if he’s happy to be 4th choice. 
Barkley to go for me doesn’t look up for the fight and set piece delivery was terrible.

drinky not good enough! 
 

 

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30 minutes ago, Valerie said:

He only played 2 halves of English football. He probably needs a loan in England.

Yeah but his positioning and read of play in whatever I have seen so far doesn’t look chelsea standard 

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