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I honestly think that the only part of our team where we've been underwhelming is the midfield and it's starting to affect our whole team. We've been unable to create anything from the middle, relying on the flanks and crosses from there way too much making it easy to play against us. 

Mount is still young, I'll give him that and can still improve, but Kovacic has been doing the same thing for years now and it seems that he wont become the player we need in the middle of the park. He has all the attributes to drive with the ball, create spaces, play some vertical through balls but he just doesnt do it and opts for easy passes 99% percent of the time. Kante for me is not needed in a team where you want to play possesion based football as he's too bad on the ball most of the tim and it's no surprise that he thrived in counter attacking teams of Leicester and Conte here. 

So we probably need a strong midfield option whose quality will lift the likes of Mount or Kovacic/Kante. Someone like Thiago or Kroos would've been great for us and we need to start looking for a player with similar qualities. 

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I agree that we are too lightweight and lack a certain bite in the middle.

A simple comparison of the stature, calibre and physicality of our mid 2000s teams, compared to now.... I get that we need to have evolved into a speedier team as the game has moved on and relies on speed so much more, but at the same time we look a bit flakey... dare I say a bit like a Wenger team, but without a certain je ne sais quoi

Look at these legends

UEFA-Champions-League-Chelsea-v-Liverpoo

 

 

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53 minutes ago, Zola said:

I agree that we are too lightweight and lack a certain bite in the middle.

A simple comparison of the stature, calibre and physicality of our mid 2000s teams, compared to now.... I get that we need to have evolved into a speedier team as the game has moved on and relies on speed so much more, but at the same time we look a bit flakey... dare I say a bit like a Wenger team, but without a certain je ne sais quoi

Look at these legends

UEFA-Champions-League-Chelsea-v-Liverpoo

 

 

That's a great side but would have been even better if you had Joey Cole in it!!

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56 minutes ago, mm24 said:

I honestly think that the only part of our team where we've been underwhelming is the midfield and it's starting to affect our whole team. We've been unable to create anything from the middle, relying on the flanks and crosses from there way too much making it easy to play against us. 

Mount is still young, I'll give him that and can still improve, but Kovacic has been doing the same thing for years now and it seems that he wont become the player we need in the middle of the park. He has all the attributes to drive with the ball, create spaces, play some vertical through balls but he just doesnt do it and opts for easy passes 99% percent of the time. Kante for me is not needed in a team where you want to play possesion based football as he's too bad on the ball most of the tim and it's no surprise that he thrived in counter attacking teams of Leicester and Conte here. 

So we probably need a strong midfield option whose quality will lift the likes of Mount or Kovacic/Kante. Someone like Thiago or Kroos would've been great for us and we need to start looking for a player with similar qualities. 

Saul Niguez

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We just spent a ton of money, we aren't going to do that again anytime soon, so we need to get it right with the players we have now. I don't think the players are the biggest issue anyway.

I have said multiple times now that I think it's a tactical problem. We are asking players to play a style of football that doesn't suit them. Lampard wants to play possession football, with slow build up play from the back, but we haven't bought in a single player that came from a team that played that way.

Why bring these players in at all if we're not going to play them to their strengths? 

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24 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

Instead of Eidur, Duff or Robben?

I guess you rotate them!

Joey is up there as one of my all time favourites, so as good a the other 3 are (particularly Robben), my bias would mean Joey would get selected ahead of all of them. But if pushed it would be Duffer as looking back, as good as he was when he first arrived, Duffer probably had the least impact but I would love any of those 4 in the starting line up right now. All scored and or created plenty of goals!

Edited by Nibs
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My friend asked me after the City game... "who realistically gets into this City team from Chelsea?"

And right now, we're just not there.

I told him from that game

- Mendy over Steffen
- Chillwell over Zinchenko 
- and Probably Silva over Stones, but Stones is in great form

it was eye opening. Sure, we still didn't play very well, and there's no cohesion with a midfield 3 of Kante, Mount, Kovacic, but man for man, we were still outmanned. Big Time

When our young players have matured... I expect to put at least 3 players on that same list within a year or 2

Anjorin (19)
Gilmour (19)
CHO (20)
James (21)
Havertz (21)
Mount (21)
Pulisic (22)
Abraham (23)
Chillwell (24)
Werner (24)

 

 

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1 hour ago, Skinnedy said:

My friend asked me after the City game... "who realistically gets into this City team from Chelsea?"

And right now, we're just not there.

I told him from that game

- Mendy over Steffen
- Chillwell over Zinchenko 
- and Probably Silva over Stones, but Stones is in great form

it was eye opening. Sure, we still didn't play very well, and there's no cohesion with a midfield 3 of Kante, Mount, Kovacic, but man for man, we were still outmanned. Big Time

 

That makes sense to me and I also think we are outgunned by Utd and Liverpool, the money spent on players is less important than their quality and cohesiveness in their team.

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One problems for me is occupying Mount and other midfielders in the side. Mount is thriving in 4-3-3 as an 8. We played a ton of games early on 4-2-3-1 where he has no natural spot. Most of our midfielders are not suited for this 4-3-3 as we have seen. 

If you go 4-3-3 Kante isn't perfect for the DM and we don't have any other player for that spot.

4-2-3-1 for this personnel is more natural as Kovacic, Kante, Gilmour, Jorginho are all better in that pivot. Only Kante is the destroyer so we just one player for that job. 

In 4-2-3-1 Havertz (10), Werner (9) would be in the spots they most probably thrive at. 

At this moment I think we have some wrong personnel but given the players Frank is currently playing the wrong formation. 

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The main issue I have with our players is not their quality but the lack of desire and fighting spirit. It might be due to the pandemic and not having people in the stadiums but our players really seem lethargic to me and often it's like they are all a bit too nice. We could really do with some more physicality and aggression IMO.

We also still lack leadership in a very big way. Thiago Silva has been a good addition but he is not a long-term solution and we are still looking for a real captain. Azpilicueta is good in this role but doesn't have the pace anymore to be more than a back-up.  

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5 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

We just spent a ton of money, we aren't going to do that again anytime soon, so we need to get it right with the players we have now. I don't think the players are the biggest issue anyway.

I have said multiple times now that I think it's a tactical problem. We are asking players to play a style of football that doesn't suit them. Lampard wants to play possession football, with slow build up play from the back, but we haven't bought in a single player that came from a team that played that way.

Why bring these players in at all if we're not going to play them to their strengths? 

Agree with this. I am also not sure why Lampard bought Havertz and Werner seemingly without knowing how to make them work and integrate them into the team. It was something I worried about in the summer already. 

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I have enjoyed reading this thread and well done to Osgood was good for starting it.

Being honest when I read the title of the thread, I thought you were going to discuss Frank’s backroom staff and speculate on whether Frank was receiving the right support and guidance as an up and coming manager.

CFC overachieved last year and ending fourth, only missing out on third sport due to goal difference, all things considered, was a fantastic achievement.

This season was always going to be riskier as Frank spent money. As painful as it is, this current teams needs to be given time and next season should be a realistic expectation for this team to deliver something.

Over the years we have won copious trophies which is nice, but we have never really created a philosophy of football, a way of playing. True, we have seen some special players and teams but the chopping and changing of managers has seen a pragmatic and sometimes short-term outlook on things. Most likely because his hand was forced last season was beautiful in the sense that we saw the emergence of youth team players come into the first team. This development should give us a lot of optimism.

Some on here have speculated how good this CFC squad is compared to other teams. To be honest in my view it’s right up there with one of the best. But, for whatever reason the current team do not appear a good enough team. I don’t think it is bad as one poster suggested that we are 11 individuals not connecting as a team, but I would agree that we don’t have enough synergy. The individual parts appear stronger than the collective, but history shows that it is other way round for great teams. We look good on paper.

I think things will get better and we need to be patient, something in recent years we have not been good at.

I am not suggesting for one moment that we go 10 years without a trophy, but it is worth pointing out that the current Liverpool set up was 10 years in the making. Even Pep needed time at City to build his vision.

Wouldn’t it be great if Frank could build a dynasty of some sorts? An approach and methodology which had some longevity. I believe that he would benefit from some assistance behind the scenes. He has the makings of being an exceptional manager, but he is new to management and of course he has made mistakes. Everyone does but I think he can help CFC achieve and needs to be given time.

 

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What is hurting us as a club is the constant change in managers. Well to be completely fair it is hurting us to be something magnificent. We can win the league and the odd cup here and there when we have the opportunity but to be a brilliant side like City, Liverpool, Barcelona, Bayern or Juventus you need that continuity. We all know this. No news in a Chelsea forum. 

We are currently in one of the stickiest situations we have been in a long time considering continuity and seeing this as a process. If we suddenly sack Frank everything is reset. That is essentially why we always fire managers. We try to salvage something by resetting. 

On the other hand Frank has one of the best squads in the league and we got toyed by City. He needs to achieve that CL place. This is why he has one of the hardest managerial jobs in the world of football. 

The message from the club is probably: "fix it". As it should be. Hope they back him to fix it as well and don't jump the gun. 

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We have Morecambe and Fulham games to get our sh*t together. After these games we have daunting task of going to Leicester and face Wolves at home. If we don't take 9 points from next 3 games in the league, Frank should be in deep trouble. 

Wrong thread. Sorry.... 

Edited by evissy
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One of the things I keep reading is "Frank spending...."

It's strange to me. In the US, the scouting, acquisition, budgeting, negotiation, etc...  is completely separate from the coaching. The coach will have his say and get involved in recruitment of course, but that's really the extent of it.

And that's how I see most modern football these days. I saw a comment about "why would Frank spend all that money on Havertz and Werner if he didn't know how to use them?"

Now, I have no doubt that he was consulted on the targets, but he's not spending that money. That money is being spent by the Chelsea brass who will likely outlast Frank.

Marina was in charge of those deals and she is acquiring a lot of young talent. That they may not be perfect fits for the system right now is largely irrelevant. The money in this window was spent to build the team for the better part of the next decade. Stockpiling young, talented footballers is good business.

The manager is going to get too much credit when things are going well, and too much blame when they're not. 

I think people are still used to the idea of the totalitarian football manager who controls everything, but at best, the manager is third in line these days as personnel department is largely handled by other people than the manager.

The idea of the coach/general manager gets thrown around here in the states, because every coach wants to be a general manager as well, but for the most part it doesn't happen any more, because it's two completely different skill sets.... and coaches are too arrogant to realize that they're not great evaluators of talent at times... and even worse negotiators...

I don't want Frank EVER dealing with an agent. I want him focusing on the first team and being consulted on possible targets and team deficiencies. 

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53 minutes ago, Skinnedy said:

One of the things I keep reading is "Frank spending...."

It's strange to me. In the US, the scouting, acquisition, budgeting, negotiation, etc...  is completely separate from the coaching. The coach will have his say and get involved in recruitment of course, but that's really the extent of it.

And that's how I see most modern football these days. I saw a comment about "why would Frank spend all that money on Havertz and Werner if he didn't know how to use them?"

Now, I have no doubt that he was consulted on the targets, but he's not spending that money. That money is being spent by the Chelsea brass who will likely outlast Frank.

Marina was in charge of those deals and she is acquiring a lot of young talent. That they may not be perfect fits for the system right now is largely irrelevant. The money in this window was spent to build the team for the better part of the next decade. Stockpiling young, talented footballers is good business.

The manager is going to get too much credit when things are going well, and too much blame when they're not. 

I think people are still used to the idea of the totalitarian football manager who controls everything, but at best, the manager is third in line these days as personnel department is largely handled by other people than the manager.

The idea of the coach/general manager gets thrown around here in the states, because every coach wants to be a general manager as well, but for the most part it doesn't happen any more, because it's two completely different skill sets.... and coaches are too arrogant to realize that they're not great evaluators of talent at times... and even worse negotiators...

I don't want Frank EVER dealing with an agent. I want him focusing on the first team and being consulted on possible targets and team deficiencies. 

For example I have said almost the same thing about Sarri; "Why does he insist of using all players just to fit in his system and not his system according to his players strengths?"

But he managed to get a result out of it, top 3 was good for that season. So he made it work somehow and Hazard ended up with one of the best seasons he had, that was Jorginho's first season and he was comfortable with being involved in most of our buildups while all the pundits were saying "If you want to stop Chelsea shut down Jorginho" and we still got a good result anyway.

Lampard could have decided to build his team around Havertz, but he instead used him wherever he needed him most of the time, a 20 year old that didn't have a pre-season needed to suddenly adapt so much. Don't get me wrong, Lampard has all the right to use however he wants his players, but if things go wrong, if player fail to adapt and fail to perform they simply can't be the only ones responsible for it.

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On 05/01/2021 at 09:10, Zola said:

I agree that we are too lightweight and lack a certain bite in the middle.

A simple comparison of the stature, calibre and physicality of our mid 2000s teams, compared to now.... I get that we need to have evolved into a speedier team as the game has moved on and relies on speed so much more, but at the same time we look a bit flakey... dare I say a bit like a Wenger team, but without a certain je ne sais quoi

Look at these legends

UEFA-Champions-League-Chelsea-v-Liverpoo

 

 

It’s crazy how football have evolved over the past decade isn’t it. I mean, our team looks more like the players in between Gallas and Ferreira now!

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19 hours ago, Skinnedy said:

One of the things I keep reading is "Frank spending...."

It's strange to me. In the US, the scouting, acquisition, budgeting, negotiation, etc...  is completely separate from the coaching. The coach will have his say and get involved in recruitment of course, but that's really the extent of it.

And that's how I see most modern football these days. I saw a comment about "why would Frank spend all that money on Havertz and Werner if he didn't know how to use them?"

Now, I have no doubt that he was consulted on the targets, but he's not spending that money. That money is being spent by the Chelsea brass who will likely outlast Frank.

Marina was in charge of those deals and she is acquiring a lot of young talent. That they may not be perfect fits for the system right now is largely irrelevant. The money in this window was spent to build the team for the better part of the next decade. Stockpiling young, talented footballers is good business.

The manager is going to get too much credit when things are going well, and too much blame when they're not. 

I think people are still used to the idea of the totalitarian football manager who controls everything, but at best, the manager is third in line these days as personnel department is largely handled by other people than the manager.

The idea of the coach/general manager gets thrown around here in the states, because every coach wants to be a general manager as well, but for the most part it doesn't happen any more, because it's two completely different skill sets.... and coaches are too arrogant to realize that they're not great evaluators of talent at times... and even worse negotiators...

I don't want Frank EVER dealing with an agent. I want him focusing on the first team and being consulted on possible targets and team deficiencies. 

A wise post and something us old time football fans have to get our heads round. 

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22 hours ago, Skinnedy said:

One of the things I keep reading is "Frank spending...."

It's strange to me. In the US, the scouting, acquisition, budgeting, negotiation, etc...  is completely separate from the coaching. The coach will have his say and get involved in recruitment of course, but that's really the extent of it.

And that's how I see most modern football these days. I saw a comment about "why would Frank spend all that money on Havertz and Werner if he didn't know how to use them?"

Now, I have no doubt that he was consulted on the targets, but he's not spending that money. That money is being spent by the Chelsea brass who will likely outlast Frank.

Marina was in charge of those deals and she is acquiring a lot of young talent. That they may not be perfect fits for the system right now is largely irrelevant. The money in this window was spent to build the team for the better part of the next decade. Stockpiling young, talented footballers is good business.

The manager is going to get too much credit when things are going well, and too much blame when they're not. 

I think people are still used to the idea of the totalitarian football manager who controls everything, but at best, the manager is third in line these days as personnel department is largely handled by other people than the manager.

The idea of the coach/general manager gets thrown around here in the states, because every coach wants to be a general manager as well, but for the most part it doesn't happen any more, because it's two completely different skill sets.... and coaches are too arrogant to realize that they're not great evaluators of talent at times... and even worse negotiators...

I don't want Frank EVER dealing with an agent. I want him focusing on the first team and being consulted on possible targets and team deficiencies. 

When we signed all those players check their threads Lampard was given pretty much all the credit for them choosing Chelsea so yes “Lampard signed them” Chelsea just paid the bill if you want to be pedantic. 

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On 07/01/2021 at 09:54, The Swan said:

I have enjoyed reading this thread and well done to Osgood was good for starting it.

Being honest when I read the title of the thread, I thought you were going to discuss Frank’s backroom staff and speculate on whether Frank was receiving the right support and guidance as an up and coming manager.

CFC overachieved last year and ending fourth, only missing out on third sport due to goal difference, all things considered, was a fantastic achievement.

This season was always going to be riskier as Frank spent money. As painful as it is, this current teams needs to be given time and next season should be a realistic expectation for this team to deliver something.

Over the years we have won copious trophies which is nice, but we have never really created a philosophy of football, a way of playing. True, we have seen some special players and teams but the chopping and changing of managers has seen a pragmatic and sometimes short-term outlook on things. Most likely because his hand was forced last season was beautiful in the sense that we saw the emergence of youth team players come into the first team. This development should give us a lot of optimism.

Some on here have speculated how good this CFC squad is compared to other teams. To be honest in my view it’s right up there with one of the best. But, for whatever reason the current team do not appear a good enough team. I don’t think it is bad as one poster suggested that we are 11 individuals not connecting as a team, but I would agree that we don’t have enough synergy. The individual parts appear stronger than the collective, but history shows that it is other way round for great teams. We look good on paper.

I think things will get better and we need to be patient, something in recent years we have not been good at.

I am not suggesting for one moment that we go 10 years without a trophy, but it is worth pointing out that the current Liverpool set up was 10 years in the making. Even Pep needed time at City to build his vision.

Wouldn’t it be great if Frank could build a dynasty of some sorts? An approach and methodology which had some longevity. I believe that he would benefit from some assistance behind the scenes. He has the makings of being an exceptional manager, but he is new to management and of course he has made mistakes. Everyone does but I think he can help CFC achieve and needs to be given time.

 

I agree 100%, Every great Coach has had to go through failures to gain the experience needed to be a respected and successful Coach. Im not saying that Frank is guarenteed to become that Coach, but id like to think we would give him the benefit of the doubt. 

We may not win anything this season, but one thing will be assured that this run of defeats and every other poor display will not go lost on our currently inexperienced Coach. If he can come back a better, Wiser Coach next season then i for one am willing to back him rather than see us sack him and continue in the mode of hiring and firing and lacking any continuity.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Said it earlier in the thread and it was yet again apparent tonight. We have some talented individuals but that doesn't make a great team.

It's hard to put your finger on exactly what has gone wrong but right now we always look likely to concede yet very rarely trouble the opposition keeper. Maddison touched on it in his interview about the importance of putting in the effort and how you don't need to spend millions on supposed stars on big wages (who have it too easy). 

Just not good enough. Frank will know that more than anyone and know that he's under increasing pressure. I want to see the players hurting a bit more after a defeat - only one I really noticed tonight was Mount. The rest no doubt just shrug their shoulders and pick up their £100k a week and go back to their big f**k-off mansion in Surrey and sleep a lot better than us supporters.

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2 minutes ago, Nibs said:

Said it earlier in the thread and it was yet again apparent tonight. We have some talented individuals but that doesn't make a great team.

It's hard to put your finger on exactly what has gone wrong but right now we always look likely to concede yet very rarely trouble the opposition keeper. Maddison touched on it in his interview about the importance of putting in the effort and how you don't need to spend millions on supposed stars on big wages (who have it too easy). 

Just not good enough. Frank will know that more than anyone and know that he's under increasing pressure. I want to see the players hurting a bit more after a defeat - only one I really noticed tonight was Mount. The rest no doubt just shrug their shoulders and pick up their £100k a week and go back to their big f**k-off mansion in Surrey and sleep a lot better than us supporters.

The manager has to take responsibility Nibs, you're giving him far too much leeway. It's the managers job to get them playing together as a team, there's no instance where when the manager gets sacked players don't let them down. 

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