Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[Argo]

15 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Not wanting to retread old ground too much in the Tuchel thread by the club badly let Carlo down with tranfers (a recurring theme for our successful managers) going into that second season. 

We allowed all of Carvalho, Deco, Ballack, Joe Cole and Belletti to leave during the summer. 

Our summer recruitment consisted of Ramires and Yossi Benayoun. So much experience and quality left and wasn't replaced. Ramires was so far from the finished article when we bought him, he was only 22 I think and no way was he ready to step into the hole left by Ballack, Deco and Belletti in the midfield. 

Then when we were behind in the title race, come January we had the "panic" buys of David Luiz and Torres to try and salvage the season. 

I do agree but like with Conte and Mourinho (although I don't buy this narrative that Conte had little to no say in our signings that summer, if we ignore the fact he's still going after the same profile of players and we're not he's tried to reunite with two of them at Inter by all accounts) in their own infamous title defense season's the mitigating circumstances can only protect them to a point.

Losing 3-0 at home to Sunderland, away to Mick McCarthy's Wolves, no wins against Newcastle in three attempts, letting Hodgson and Dalgish plagued Liverpool sides do the double (comfortably aswell) can't be blamed on the transfer window. The transfer window also doesn't excuse him ignoring Sturridge when Kaloudanelka were stinking the joint out or constantly playing Bosingwa when we had two superior RB's (one of which the best in the league at that point).

With Ancelotti my belief has always been he's the best in the world at making good moment's even better but he takes far too long to turn blips round and it usually costs his teams in terms of league titles.

Also we finished that season with less points than we did under Sarri, so if the style of football cancels out okay results argument is valid for that season then it certainly can be for this one.

[strider6004]

10 hours ago, Paddy said:

It’s fascinating how we all see what we see in players and games and how, at times, we differ so ?

................RJ worries me defensively I think he loses concentration and forgets he still needs to get back.......

that description is entirely cho to me !!

He can have moments (he’s still only a pup with just about 40 odd appearances) , but I don’t see any obvious major flaws in RJ’s defending, instead, especially one v one, I see an incredibly strong, robust and determined individual who rarely loses the contest or gets bested , who is accomplished and comfortable with the ball and not scared of responsibility.

I believe one of his strongest traits is his ability to be completely concentrated for the entire 90 minutes.

I think the amount of quality crosses he delivers is , generally , acceptable and some of them are real beauties, but it’s an area to work on.

If I have to pick on areas for improvement for a 21 year old, aside from continual improvement/evolution that comes with time/age, would be for him to have more strikes from distance, he’s got a great dig on him and also to practice and use his left foot more for crosses and shooting, it gives him and the team an advantage and keeps the opponent guessing.

Critically, I think he is guilty, at times, of passing backwards/sideways too often.

We couldn’t be more diametrically opposed if we tried 🤷‍♂️  

 

With CHO it is early days yet he is running back to help out. He covered Lemar when it looked like Suarez had created an assist.

Their crosses are different CHO is crossing higher up the pitch and just behind the defense whereas James crosses in front of the defence which is easier to defend especially when often we just have one attacker in the box.

Defensively James's strength almost seems his Achilles heel where if he is not pushed off the ball often he is judged to be fouling.

I also don't feel confident with him defending in the box though lack examples and to be fair last time CHO almost gave away a penalty with his 'imitation' of a flightless bird flapping its wings. 

With Azpi slowing down with age I think the RB will be one position that gets discussed over the summer.

Opposite views make the forum more interesting it would be boring if we agreed all the time. 

 

 

 

 

[Paddy]

52 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

With CHO it is early days yet he is running back to help out. He covered Lemar when it looked like Suarez had created an assist.

Their crosses are different CHO is crossing higher up the pitch and just behind the defense whereas James crosses in front of the defence which is easier to defend especially when often we just have one attacker in the box.

Defensively James's strength almost seems his Achilles heel where if he is not pushed off the ball often he is judged to be fouling.

I also don't feel confident with him defending in the box though lack examples and to be fair last time CHO almost gave away a penalty with his 'imitation' of a flightless bird flapping its wings. 

With Azpi slowing down with age I think the RB will be one position that gets discussed over the summer.

Opposite views make the forum more interesting it would be boring if we agreed all the time. 

 

 

 

 

Completely agree with your closing remark.

......Their crosses are different CHO is crossing higher up the pitch and just behind the defense whereas James crosses in front of the defence which is easier to defend especially when often we just have one attacker in the box.

Whichever or whatever way the crosses come in wouldn’t seem to matter cause you we don’t take advantage and convert them into goals ?!!

[Paddy]

10 hours ago, Dragos said:

…………Maybe it's just me, don't know, i have fears. Fears are no good, i will seek help. 

 

Let me know how you get on with the help cause if it’s any good I may well join you 

[Paddy]

3 hours ago, yorkleyblue said:

 

Euston, we have a problem.

Monge too Rodney, monge too - what a plonker I am !!! 🙄

[Bob stark]

1 hour ago, Strider6003 said:

With CHO it is early days yet he is running back to help out. He covered Lemar when it looked like Suarez had created an assist.

Their crosses are different CHO is crossing higher up the pitch and just behind the defense whereas James crosses in front of the defence which is easier to defend especially when often we just have one attacker in the box.

Defensively James's strength almost seems his Achilles heel where if he is not pushed off the ball often he is judged to be fouling.

I also don't feel confident with him defending in the box though lack examples and to be fair last time CHO almost gave away a penalty with his 'imitation' of a flightless bird flapping its wings. 

With Azpi slowing down with age I think the RB will be one position that gets discussed over the summer.

Opposite views make the forum more interesting it would be boring if we agreed all the time. 

 

 

 

 

Why rb is a problem ?

Reece James is a very2 good rb. Honestly other than sometimes he does not play 100% everytime I have 0 complain.

CHO is simply a makeshift winger,He can't defend the box but none of united attacker are good in the air

[dansubrosa]

I really don’t think RB is a problem. James will develop into a world class right back.

There’s a lot of talk about signing a new striker and centre back but honestly I think we desperately need a upgrade in midfield. Look at this picture below

It was potentially a 3 v 1 situation had Kovacic decided to look up and pass forward but no, he’s decided to stop and pass back to the f*cking defence. Frustrating.

I hoped Gilmour would be the answer but I don’t think Tuchel have enough faith in him so let’s go and buy one who can actually pass forward. Someone like Fabregas.

 

[strider6004]

2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Why rb is a problem ?

Reece James is a very2 good rb. Honestly other than sometimes he does not play 100% everytime I have 0 complain.

CHO is simply a makeshift winger,He can't defend the box but none of united attacker are good in the air

Well I think most of us agree Azpi's time at Right back or RWB is over and even at CB the clock is running.

I feel James is still learning and am not sure how high is ceiling is.

CHO is not a right back.

I'm not saying we will strengthen as other positions are higher priority and striker looms large.

I think rather we will be looking to strengthen in 3 positions and right back might be one depending on players sales and decent player availability.

 

[strider6004]

2 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

I really don’t think RB is a problem. James will develop into a world class right back.

There’s a lot of talk about signing a new striker and centre back but honestly I think we desperately need a upgrade in midfield. Look at this picture below

It was potentially a 3 v 1 situation had Kovacic decided to look up and pass forward but no, he’s decided to stop and pass back to the f*cking defence. Frustrating.

I hoped Gilmour would be the answer but I don’t think Tuchel have enough faith in him so let’s go and buy one who can actually pass forward. Someone like Fabregas.

I agree on striker, less sure about CB as this depends on the system and whether Silva will stay another season. If we play 3 at the back arguably we don't need another CB.

Midfield is a conundrum before Tuchel most said we needed a defensive midfield player like Matic and Frank wanted Rice.

Since Tuchel our defence has improved and it makes the creative midfielder gap more obvious, I thought Ziyech or Havertz might be the answer yet they have not delivered yet.

For me at the window there are so many changing parts with identifying players and making offers at the same time as moving on players that want to leave or we want them off our books.

I imagine there is also a priority list and striker would be no.1 and maybe RB no.4

If we can't deliver on 2 or 3 re too expensive yet an option comes up for RB, then think that might happen.

 

 

[haviet1]

5 hours ago, dansubrosa said:

I really don’t think RB is a problem. James will develop into a world class right back.

There’s a lot of talk about signing a new striker and centre back but honestly I think we desperately need a upgrade in midfield. Look at this picture below

It was potentially a 3 v 1 situation had Kovacic decided to look up and pass forward but no, he’s decided to stop and pass back to the f*cking defence. Frustrating.

I hoped Gilmour would be the answer but I don’t think Tuchel have enough faith in him so let’s go and buy one who can actually pass forward. Someone like Fabregas.

 

 

Yes, this has been very frustrating on at least several occasions each game.

I thought Havertz was that guy? Do you want to give him another season to see if he can play that role, or go out and waste another 50M-60M?

 

[Paddy]

1 hour ago, haviet1 said:

 

Yes, this has been very frustrating on at least several occasions each game.

I thought Havertz was that guy? Do you want to give him another season to see if he can play that role, or go out and waste another 50M-60M?

 

£60 million - I have it on good authority that you need at least £70, and that only gets you potential - apparently?

[dansubrosa]

2 hours ago, haviet1 said:

 

Yes, this has been very frustrating on at least several occasions each game.

I thought Havertz was that guy? Do you want to give him another season to see if he can play that role, or go out and waste another 50M-60M?

 

I don’t think Havertz can play in that role, seems like he can only play as a false 9 or behind the striker.

I wouldn’t be against spending 50m on a central midfielder if it means we’d have a midfielder who can look forward and make things happen. Kovacic is such a frustrating player because he’s so good at dribbling but when it comes to final third, he’s shocking.

[LongtimerLurker]

Realistically though who can we sign that will actually pass like Fabregas. I was convinced when we signed Hakim he would be that player for us and after seeing him play for us this season I still think he can be. He has such good vision and often has the ability to execute it. The issue with the most recent game was there weren't as many willing runners for him to pick out. 

Aside from CHO, maybe Ben and the brief time period both Hakim and Pulisic were on together we didn't have any players willing to run in behind thus rendering Ziyech's best attribute (his accurate forward passes at least for this team) useless.

I hope against Liverpool Thomas keeps Hakim in the starting 11 and plays Werner up top with Mount or Pulisic on the left. After what Pulisic did last season vs Liverpool we could use that kind of offense power

[Bob stark]

13 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

Well I think most of us agree Azpi's time at Right back or RWB is over and even at CB the clock is running.

I feel James is still learning and am not sure how high is ceiling is.

CHO is not a right back.

I'm not saying we will strengthen as other positions are higher priority and striker looms large.

I think rather we will be looking to strengthen in 3 positions and right back might be one depending on players sales and decent player availability.

 

Azpi is more than capable as backup. Rb is least of my concern. Honestly it is hard to say what do we need. I want us to sign dm this year but It really depend on what is tuchel plan. If he insist on playing 3 cb,with two flat dm at all time playing this heavy possesion football and two up top then dm isn't needed. 

A really good st is always welcome but,we have 8 atrackers in the team competing for 3  spots already. None od them are bad player and excepr giroud none odf them are old

[Bob stark]

5 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Realistically though who can we sign that will actually pass like Fabregas. I was convinced when we signed Hakim he would be that player for us and after seeing him play for us this season I still think he can be. He has such good vision and often has the ability to execute it. The issue with the most recent game was there weren't as many willing runners for him to pick out. 

Aside from CHO, maybe Ben and the brief time period both Hakim and Pulisic were on together we didn't have any players willing to run in behind thus rendering Ziyech's best attribute (his accurate forward passes at least for this team) useless.

I hope against Liverpool Thomas keeps Hakim in the starting 11 and plays Werner up top with Mount or Pulisic on the left. After what Pulisic did last season vs Liverpool we could use that kind of offense power

Timo werner and tammy ??

Edited March 3, 2021 by Bob stark

[ForeverCarefree]

11 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Realistically though who can we sign that will actually pass like Fabregas.

What says we need to sign anyone? 

[Guest Sindre]

3 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

What says we need to sign anyone? 

Don't think we are doing Gilmour any favours comparing him to Cesc. I like him a lot but Fabregas was already one of the best players in the league at Billy's current age.

Different kind of players too. I don't ever see Gilmour turning into an assist-king. More of a metronome type player that can control the tempo.

 

[ForeverCarefree]

Just now, Sindre said:

Don't think we are doing Gilmour any favours comparing him to Cesc. I like him a lot but Fabregas was already one of the best players in the league at Billy's current age.

Different kind of players too. I don't ever see Gilmour turning into an assist-king. More of a metronome type player that can control the tempo.

I'm not comparing him to Cesc but he's definitely a very good passer of the ball. He always gets his head up and looks to play the ball forward, he's not a safety first plyer. 

He's creative enough to get us on the front foot a lot quicker than Jorginho and Kovacic do. 

I'm a big fan of Gilmour, I think given chances he could be a very useful player. 

[JM7]

I’ve officially given up on the new players - I’m ready to admit that they are rubbish. This includes Werner, Havertz, Ziyech. Chilwell and Mendy I will give a pass to and they have shown enough promise and form. The other 3 above, they should be benched until they actually start performing. It feels like Torres and Shevchenko again - “he needs time, we need to adjust to him, he’s new, he’s young”. It’s all just excuses. For all the hype, they have largely offered nothing this season. 

It’s a good job that I’m not in charge of the team..

[RMH]

1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Don't think we are doing Gilmour any favours comparing him to Cesc. I like him a lot but Fabregas was already one of the best players in the league at Billy's current age.

Different kind of players too. I don't ever see Gilmour turning into an assist-king. More of a metronome type player that can control the tempo.

 

While I agree that he is not yet at a Fabregas level, I think he can become that kind of player. He's not only a metronome (I see that type of player more like a Jorginho role), he's got a good range of pass and the vision to pass the ball between the lines, can dribble and bring the ball forward and he can certainly make assists (even in a potato field like Barnsley he got the goal assist and he did pass Tammy when he was fouled inside the area but the penalty was not given). I'm not saying that if he played we would have the perfect midfield, but he needs minutes to become the player that, in my opinion, he can be for us. And I don't think that he is at the moment the worst option of our midfield. I would like to see him getting more playing time. FFS, Ziyech is having more opportunities than Gilmour!!

[LongtimerLurker]

2 hours ago, JM7 said:

I’ve officially given up on the new players - I’m ready to admit that they are rubbish. This includes Werner, Havertz, Ziyech. Chilwell and Mendy I will give a pass to and they have shown enough promise and form. The other 3 above, they should be benched until they actually start performing. It feels like Torres and Shevchenko again - “he needs time, we need to adjust to him, he’s new, he’s young”. It’s all just excuses. For all the hype, they have largely offered nothing this season. 

It’s a good job that I’m not in charge of the team..

I think tbf we have to look at the context. Havertz is 21 I expected a better season so far but he has been  in and out of the team with injury and illness not to mention he's not a big lad so he still needs to come to grips with rhe physicality of the league.

Werner is a bit more tricky, I don't see many similarities between him and Torres or Sheva tbh. Whilst they all struggled for goals that is the only comparison I see. Torres joined from a direct rival after his pace started to diminish he was always going to be judged next to his time at Liverpool. 

Sheva too joined at a similar age to Torres from a different style of football. History shows the older you are the tougher the transition is bar a few (Vardy, Wright etc.)

Werner still has time on his side and his pace. Not to mention he keeps trying even when things aren't going his way, really strong will power he must have felt humiliated during that poor finishing run but he didn't hide or pull a Morata and flop about.

Ziyech is a tough one I really can't say too much other than I hope he finishes the campaign strong and puts the doubt to rest that he can't adjust and perform.

Also that his body language has nothing to do with his attitude and he wants to be here. Because for me that's one of the main detractors for him, when he looks disinterested. Although that could just be his face resting b**** face 😂😂

Edited March 3, 2021 by LongtimerLurker

[Gol15]

4 hours ago, Sindre said:

Don't think we are doing Gilmour any favours comparing him to Cesc. I like him a lot but Fabregas was already one of the best players in the league at Billy's current age.

Different kind of players too. I don't ever see Gilmour turning into an assist-king. More of a metronome type player that can control the tempo.

 

In the recent times he has been playing more in the "Kovacic role" and not so much as Jorginho so I think you're right, his skills mirror more Kovacic that looks to keep the tempo and run with the ball.

[dansubrosa]

Gol is... banned?

[yorkleyblue]

1 minute ago, dansubrosa said:

Gol is... banned?

Surely there would be a youtube and a Venn diagram about it if he/she was.

 

[Argo]

I was against 343 when TT started doing it and was hoping it was just a temporary measure but more I think about it more I think it suits our squad perfectly.

Azpi is at his best in the hybrid RCB role and long term I think it could bring the very best out of Reece too. Christensen and Rudi are better in that formation as are our two CB prospects out on loan in Ampadu and Guehi. Mount, Werner, Pulisic and Havertz are suited to a tucked in two behind the striker and a false 9 while CHO has developed a new lease of life at wingback. Could also prolong Silva's career being in the centre of a 3.

Unfortunately as with anything they'll be losers and in this case Ziyech and Chilwell (unless he can adapt to a LCB role) fall into that category and we will need two investments at wing back to bench Alonso (who would still make an excellent rotation option) and challenge Callum (maybe Lamptey back for the latter?) but the more I think about it the more I feel it could work.

To make it work the wingbacks are crucial and usually the difference between it being too defensive a formation and a well balanced formation tough to combat, they have to be almost wingers going forward as there's a fine line between a fluid back 3 and a flat back 5, we will need atleast two options on both sides.