Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[forbzy]

19 minutes ago, ducavis said:

Playing Devil’s advocate here and Tuchel alluded to this, hypothetically if we had allowed Werner to take the pens he would have had 13goals & 8 assists. That wouldn’t look shabby for a 1st season.

 

You are assuming he wouldn't miss them 😉

[Guest Sindre]

45 minutes ago, Strider6003 said:

There's a reason why not many teams win the treble, too many games over too short a period, must also be worse for a new manager to the EPL.

We have had injures during that period too, Kante, Kovacic, Christensen and now Mendy.

15 games from April 3rd until we faced Aston Villa on the 23rd of May.

Almost half a league campaign in just a month and a half or so. Most games against very tough competition as well.

With the midfield injuries we had someone like Jorginho had to play 14 of those games. No wonder he and the rest of the team lost some games and looked absolutely exhausted towards the end.

 

 

 

[axman2526]

45 minutes ago, forbzy said:

You are assuming he wouldn't miss them 😉

He would be onside, so for sure he would miss lol.

[venom2011]

6 hours ago, JM7 said:

After spending £150m on our attack, it is a massive disappointment the way they’ve performed this season. 
 

Werner - disappointing 

Pulsic - Flashes but disappointing 

Havertz - Flashes but disappointing 

Ziyech - flashes but disappointing 

All of the attackers have shown flashes and moments this year but not consistently. The attack should have done way better. 

Why should they have done way better?

Werner, Havertz (21), Ziyech - first year in the PL, with no pre-season. All three struggled with the physicality and only now am I seeing actual improvement in that area from Werner and Havertz.

Mount (22), Pulisic (22), Odoi (20), Tammy - All young and second season in the league.

I've made this point before but going through the top 5:

City - Aguero, Sterling, Mahrez, Silva, Jesus - All with good experience in the PL, backed up by Foden and Torres

Man Utd - Rashford, Martial, Silva, Cavani, Mata - A mixture of good overall experience and PL experience.

Liverpool - Mane, Salah, Firmino, Jota, Origi - A mixture of great overall experience and PL experience

Leicester - Ineacho, Vardy, Perez - A mixture of good overall experience and PL experience.

And it goes the same for Tottenham and Arsenal (Kane, Son, Bale, Auba, Lacezette, Willian ).

Our attack, although very talented, is quite far off the necessary quality and experience to challenge for the title (compared to the other teams). If we had five 22-year old Hazards it would be the exact same thing. Our attack is filled with players who should be in supporting roles for a title-challenging team, not because of a lack of talent but their lack of experience. And Mount would never have made 72 appearances over the last two seasons for City or Liverpool. As you say, the attackers have looked good in flashes, but not consistently - this is what we should have expected.

Edited May 25, 2021 by venom2011

[PraetorianGuard]

6 hours ago, weetee said:

 

https://twitter.com/pythaginboots/status/1397224876050722827

Interesting breakdown.

Not sure if it is on purpose, but this seems to imply inside forwards are out of date. You see them much more often in the modern game, especially with the modern German philosophy

[Gol15]

8 minutes ago, PraetorianGuard said:

Not sure if it is on purpose, but this seems to imply inside forwards are out of date. You see them much more often in the modern game, especially with the modern German philosophy

Use of goalkeeper (Pre 1900's tactics) 

[weetee]

8 hours ago, PraetorianGuard said:

Not sure if it is on purpose, but this seems to imply inside forwards are out of date. You see them much more often in the modern game, especially with the modern German philosophy

Actually I meant those couple of graphics below..not those three points being made at the top of the post (that wouldn't be that interesting of a breakdown.. :D) - I'm just inept to insert that link properly it seems- nothing new of course but I find it nice to recognize what I see in the telly while watching us play broke up into little graphs...like those guy over here with his socks-graphs!

 

 

[DidierDrogbalala]

Great article on the Athletic about Tuchel and Pep relationship by Rapha Honeigstein

 

 

Quote

Guardiola and Tuchel’s meetings in Munich bars: ‘It was like watching two grandmasters of chess, locked in a battle of wits’

 

Quote

At first, they were jabbing each other gently, checking each other out. But then the discussion quickly went to a whole new level. They were discussing moves and tactical changes from games that happened years ago. Pepper mills and wine glasses were being moved around, but most of the time, they were replaying entire games in their heads. I couldn’t believe that they remembered the most minute detail. It was like, ‘You know when you moved your full-backs inside against Real Madrid in 2009, the second half? Why was that?’, and so on.

“It was like watching two grandmasters of chess, Fischer vs Spassky, locked in a battle of wits. Or Cicero and Socrates, discussing football philosophy.”

Six years after sharing a table with Pep Guardiola and Thomas Tuchel in Schumann’s Bar in central Munich, Michael Reschke still relishes talking about an evening that has become part of Bundesliga folklore.

Guardiola, he says, hadn’t planned on meeting the recently-departed Mainz coach over champagne and wine spritzers in the most famous bar in town that night. But it wasn’t a chance encounter either.

“Pep and I had talked about Thomas shortly after I arrived to work as Bayern’s sporting director in 2014,” the 63-year-old tells The Athletic. “He asked me, ‘Who is the most interesting young German coach?’ I said, ‘Tuchel’. Pep replied, “Yes! We (Bayern) played against Mainz last season and they actually wanted to win against us! Many teams park the bus and are happy if they don’t lose too big. But he really put us under pressure. With Mainz! I have huge respect for him’.”

With the exception of Jurgen Klopp’s Borussia Dortmund, most Bundesliga sides had dug in deep in their own half to try to stymie Guardiola’s possession game, much to the Catalan’s frustration. “If I ever play like that, I’m finished as a coach,” he told Reschke, only half in jest.

Quote

Against Tuchel’s Mainz, though, it had been a different story.

Yes, Bayern won both encounters, 4-1 and 2-0, in the previous 2013-14 campaign but did so with much more difficulty than the scorelines suggest.

In Munich, Mainz had led at half-time and shut out the champions’ attack with a highly fluid 3-4-3 system that constantly kept adapting to disrupt Bayern’s central build-up and create counter-attacking opportunities. (Guardiola responded by overloading the left side with David Alaba and Bastian Schweinsteiger, while Mario Gotze pinned backed defenders on the right). And in the return fixture five months later, Mainz had held their own until they finally conceded in the 82nd and 86th minutes. “It was fun today,” Guardiola had said after the final whistle.

“Pep was already Pep, but it’s worth remembering that Tuchel wasn’t the coach he is today — a DFB Pokal (German Cup) winner with Dortmund, a Champions League finalist with Paris Saint-Germain and Chelsea,” Reschke says. “He was a young guy who had coached Mainz for five years and was out of a job, on a sabbatical. But in those couple of games the year before, he had won Pep’s attention. More than that, Pep admired him for having a go with a team of rather limited means, and for the precision of his game plan. ‘Tuchel always has an answer’, he said.”

One day, Reschke told Guardiola in passing that he’d arranged to have drinks with Tuchel later on.

He had been in contact with Tuchel for a few years, having looked at signing him for Bayer Leverkusen, where he had worked previously as sporting director. Guardiola spontaneously decided to join them at one of Schumann’s corner tables that evening. (Anyone can enter the bar, but only frequent guests are given an actual seat.) He was so keen on getting to know Tuchel that he even cancelled a couple of appointments.

The appreciation was mutual. During his time as Mainz coach, Tuchel had flown to Barcelona a couple of times to study Guardiola’s team in the flesh. He had read all the Guardiola biographies as well.

There was initially a “master and apprentice” feel to their get-together, with Tuchel asking all the questions, and Guardiola replying in great depth. But after a while, the roles were reversed as they began to discuss their craft as equals.

“I like to talk about football myself quite a lot but I don’t think I got a word in,” says Reschke. “I was a mere spectator. They were speaking in a mixture of German and English, and didn’t use any scientific terms at all, but it was still hard to keep up with them at times. They could recall dozens and dozens of specific situations from ages ago and talked through how things might have panned out differently if there had been any changes. It was all about actions and reactions.

“They were so wrapped up in their discussions that other people in the bar and even the waiters didn’t dare approach them. They were in a bubble, for nearly four hours.”

Quote

A few weeks later, the trio met for a second time, at Munich restaurant Brenner.

This was a slightly more relaxed evening but just as intense in terms of the football debates, as a fourth attendee noted.

Reschke had invited Peter Hermann, a Bayern assistant who had worked under former coach Jupp Heynckes to join the party.

The hugely experienced now-69-year-old had been part of three Champions League finals (with Bayer Leverkusen in 2002 and in 2012 and 2013 with Bayern) but later confessed to Reschke that listening in on Guardiola and Tuchel felt like an epiphany. “He thanked me and said he called his wife to tell her that he was quitting football, the next morning,” Reschke laughs. “Why? ‘I always thought I knew a little bit about football,’ he said. ‘But I’m no longer so sure… These guys are in a different league’.”

Reschke had experienced a similar moment with Guardiola a few months earlier when the two of them had travelled to Italy to see Roma play ahead of a Champions League group game against Bayern. “It was crazy. Pep spoke of each team’s strengths and weaknesses before kick-off and the match went exactly the way he had predicted. Later that week, he allowed me to sit in on the team meeting. Many of the moves and situations he had anticipated played out (when Bayern eventually played Roma), as if he had scripted it. It was incredible.” Bayern annihilated Roma 7-1 in the Stadio Olimpico that night, in one of the most accomplished performances of Guardiola’s three-year reign.

Guardiola and Tuchel share many similarities, Reschke believes. “They’re both very demanding of their players and get on best with players who think as deeply about the game as they do,” he says. “Those who simply want to play their own football tend to struggle. Tactically, both want to dominate. The starting point is always, ‘How can we score a goal?’ Thomas’ way is slightly more technocratic, Pep’s more arty.”

Guardiola was so convinced of Tuchel’s coaching qualities he urged Reschke to make him his successor in Munich. “He said, ‘You have to bring him to Bayern!’”

Reschke, Tuchel and Bayern president Uli Hoeness did meet in Munich, but the timing wasn’t right.

Quote

As for Saturday’s Champions League final, Reschke predicts a “great battle” that will bring out the best of both of them. “Pep gets excited when there are games at a very high level, against special opponents or coaches, and Thomas has already shown that he can beat him this season. It’s funny to think they will meet in Porto to contest the biggest trophy in club football after those fun nights in Munich. I’m pleased for them.”

Maybe they’ll find the time to toast the winner and console the loser after the final whistle.

 

[axman2526]

With our interest in Lukaku is there a chance Roman decides to bury the hatchet with another former manager and bring back Conte to work with him?

[SFL82]

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

With our interest in Lukaku is there a chance Roman decides to bury the hatchet with another former manager and bring back Conte to work with him?

We have one if the best managers in the world why on Earth would we get rid of him and bring conte just on the merit of working with Lukaku, to what end? To train his turning circle from bin lorry to reliant robin ? 

[forbzy]

11 hours ago, SFL82 said:

We have one if the best managers in the world why on Earth would we get rid of him and bring conte just on the merit of working with Lukaku, to what end? To train his turning circle from bin lorry to reliant robin ? 

I would assume if this happened then we would have to assume that the board did not have faith that Tuchel was the right person for the job.

Currently I think Tuchel has 1 year left on his initial deal. I would hope that the board extends that after the end of this season, if they see Tuchel as our future manager. If they don't extend him it is hard to imagine Tuchel lasting very long. If you have a manager on a short term deal there is increased risk that a fallout can occur and I would not have any faith that the board would back him players that he wants.

[Guest Sindre]

8 minutes ago, forbzy said:

I would assume if this happened then we would have to assume that the board did not have faith that Tuchel was the right person for the job.

Currently I think Tuchel has 1 year left on his initial deal. I would hope that the board extends that after the end of this season, if they see Tuchel as our future manager. If they don't extend him it is hard to imagine Tuchel lasting very long. If you have a manager on a short term deal there is increased risk that a fallout can occur and I would not have any faith that the board would back him players that he wants.

I agree.

I think it's important that we extend Tuchel's contract this summer. We need that stability both for recruitment and for the entire club itself.

[forbzy]

9 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I agree.

I think it's important that we extend Tuchel's contract this summer. We need that stability both for recruitment and for the entire club itself.

Hard to imagine that he won't get an extension if we win the final. If we don't win and he doesn't get an extension, that wouldn't bode well for his future at the club.

[dansubrosa]

14 hours ago, axman2526 said:

With our interest in Lukaku is there a chance Roman decides to bury the hatchet with another former manager and bring back Conte to work with him?

Tuchel’s history with previous clubs doesn’t look good but I’m certain Conte wouldn’t last longer than 2 years or even less.

It is a huge black mark on Conte, anyone interested in him will be wary of how difficult he can be to work with.

Tuchel, didn’t last long at previous clubs but then he could stay here for 3 years or even longer. No one knows but I don’t see why we should get rid of him for Conte.

[axman2526]

1 minute ago, dansubrosa said:

Tuchel’s history with previous clubs doesn’t look good but I’m certain Conte wouldn’t last longer than 2 years or even less.

It is a huge black mark on Conte, anyone interested in him will be wary of how difficult he can be to work with.

Tuchel, didn’t last long at previous clubs but then he could stay here for 3 years or even longer. No one knows but I don’t see why we should get rid of him for Conte.

Not saying we should dan, just that Roman did bring back Jose and Conte is clearly a manager who likes to have cash to spend. If we do sign Lukaku, who he wanted rather than Morata, that might be a big step to make him happy for those 2 years and a happy Conte wins titles.

Roman has seen that first hand. While I expect TT to stay there is a slim chance a poor showing on saturday, following the Fa cup loss and almost fumbling the top 4, puts TT on very thin ice.

Could be he is given a few months in to the new season and axed if we are not up there with City.

Zidane is also up for grabs. Has been written in the past Roman would like him to come in too.

[Drogba1]

42 minutes ago, axman2526 said:

Not saying we should dan, just that Roman did bring back Jose and Conte is clearly a manager who likes to have cash to spend. If we do sign Lukaku, who he wanted rather than Morata, that might be a big step to make him happy for those 2 years and a happy Conte wins titles.

Roman has seen that first hand. While I expect TT to stay there is a slim chance a poor showing on saturday, following the Fa cup loss and almost fumbling the top 4, puts TT on very thin ice.

Could be he is given a few months in to the new season and axed if we are not up there with City.

Zidane is also up for grabs. Has been written in the past Roman would like him to come in too.

Whilst what Conte just achieved at Inter shows how incredible a manager he is, I doubt Tuchel's on thin ice regardless of what happens on Saturday (I think we'll win anyway tbh) . Just getting here is massive progress, it's been 7 years since we even made it to the semis.

[forbzy]

1 hour ago, axman2526 said:

Not saying we should dan, just that Roman did bring back Jose and Conte is clearly a manager who likes to have cash to spend. If we do sign Lukaku, who he wanted rather than Morata, that might be a big step to make him happy for those 2 years and a happy Conte wins titles.

Roman has seen that first hand. While I expect TT to stay there is a slim chance a poor showing on saturday, following the Fa cup loss and almost fumbling the top 4, puts TT on very thin ice.

Could be he is given a few months in to the new season and axed if we are not up there with City.

Zidane is also up for grabs. Has been written in the past Roman would like him to come in too.

I would be happy to see Conte back here in the future if it works out that way at some point. He was very successful during his time here. If the club had backed him instead of Diego, after his successful first season, then he may have enjoyed even more success during his time with the club.

[LongtimerLurker]

3 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Not saying we should dan, just that Roman did bring back Jose and Conte is clearly a manager who likes to have cash to spend. If we do sign Lukaku, who he wanted rather than Morata, that might be a big step to make him happy for those 2 years and a happy Conte wins titles.

Roman has seen that first hand. While I expect TT to stay there is a slim chance a poor showing on saturday, following the Fa cup loss and almost fumbling the top 4, puts TT on very thin ice.

Could be he is given a few months in to the new season and axed if we are not up there with City.

Zidane is also up for grabs. Has been written in the past Roman would like him to come in too.

I would be a strong advocate for Conte returning had Lampard still been our coach and we failed to reach top 4. Only going on the basis that the board were intending to appoint a new coach anyway.

I still would hope the board could one day make amends with Antonio because he is one of the best coaches we've had and I personally feel he has unfinished business here (lack of funds meant he didn't get to defend his title the same reason why he's leaving Inter).

That said Tuchel has done an excellent job and I personally wouldn't replace him with any coach in world football currently and I mean that whole heartedly.

Pep and Klopp are elite level coaches don't get me wrong but I think Thomas is at that level. Conte is also there, yet his lack of European competition success still looms large over his head. I think this will be his main aim and it will be quite interesting to see where he ends up next.

My bet is Real Madrid, he is the perfect candidate to refresh the squad like what he did with Juventus.

I'd like to think Roman is a fair boss to some degree, I don't think anything other than a genuine spanking of 3 or more goals aggregate to our score would genuinely make Roman flick the fire switch.

Tommy was set a minimum goal of top 4 and I suppose told to go as far as possible in the cups which he did. Anyone who can honestly say Tuchel has failed regardless of how the season has ended (including Saturday's result) must have very high expectations even by Roman's standards.

[axman2526]

@LongtimerLurker

You mention there that maybe a spanking of higher than 3 goals might get Roman to flip the switch.

Is an interesting point. If Roman is suitably embarrassed would he toss reason put the wi dow and react if say we suffer a Sarri level 6-0 to City?

[LongtimerLurker]

2 hours ago, axman2526 said:

@LongtimerLurker

You mention there that maybe a spanking of higher than 3 goals might get Roman to flip the switch.

Is an interesting point. If Roman is suitably embarrassed would he toss reason put the wi dow and react if say we suffer a Sarri level 6-0 to City?

Good question I'd like to think that Tuchel should be safe regardless of Saturday's result but you just don't know. The Sarri result for example was humiliating but, to an extent it's what Abramovich and the board had asked for. They wanted us to play attack first football and we did and we lost badly. Conte did the opposite the season before and we lost only by a couple of goals.

I'd argue that since Tommy has played defensive football foremost were he to mix it up and try and play attacking. Then surely we can't complain if we lose too badly assuming we would lose anyway. Which tbf isn't the best assumption since our counter attacking style has actually been the best way to neutralise Pep and city.

So in theory were we to stick to the game plan it's very unlikely we would lose by a high scoreline but it's still possible. I doubt TT throws a curveball and switches the style too much but it's a final where both Managers know each other fairly well. So who blinks first and adapts their philosophy for the other.

[LongtimerLurker]

It may just be me but, I've noticed that our wingbacks have not been playing as high recently especially compared to when TT first reintroduced 3atb.

Various reasons could be given for this I suspect burn out from the high intensity required to play the position. But it could be a tactical tweak from TT in recent weeks asking them to play a little more reserved.

It could be the opposition managers stifling this strategy through their own tactical tweaks. Or as I spoke earlier about player profiles, the specific players TT is choosing don't actually remain high due to their own natural playstyle.

If we compare all of the wingbacks: 

Alonso plays high but has bad recovery and so often gets caught and has been used less frequently in the last half a dozen games.

Pulisic plays high but is better as an inside fwd or one of the two strikers in terms of goal contributions.

CHO fits the position well but has seen less play time. Sadly he also despite getting into good positions and getting past his man fails to get many assists or goals from these good areas.

Azpil has played higher recently but he doesn't have the dribbling ability to go past players often enough and so he feels more like imo a dm playing on the wing.

James gets the crosses in and has good movement. But, has recently played as a rcb which I feel despite the positives in dealing with the pace of opposition fwds actually limits our own forward play.

The last player I'll talk about is Ben who imo has been our best fullback this season. I think James has been brilliant but, I knew he would be judging how well he played last season. Ben was a question mark and despite worries when TT first took over he has truly won the coaches trust.

He has thr best movement off the ball of any of the wb options imo he is constantly running in behind and offering an outlet, he also pops up with goals and assists regular enough for a defender.

Anyway my point is if we can maintain our original shape of 3241 not 3421 I think we go back to posing more problems for our opponents. It might just be me but I feel like this has been one of our bigger issues recently despite lack of creating and finishing of chances. I think it all comes back to the wbs losing their effectiveness. 

I think Azpil has to remain at Rcb where he is world class I think he is good at rwb but not as good as James for example. If we're going to play 5 defenders with 2 at wb let's make our most mobile defenders the wingers so we can attack dynamically. I know TT has his reasons for whatever setups he puts out. But let's be honest the recent tweaks haven't really worked and I think he should go back to what worked previously. Our best 1v1 defenders Rudi, Silva and Azpil sat behind a pivot. With two inside fwds flanked by two marauding wingbacks just ahead, finished by whoever finishes the best in the squad (the striker).

[ozboy]

I think cho and James might work as rwb and rcb. Or Dave at rcb with either of the other two ar rwb. I don’t like Dave at rwb and jame at rcb. But I’m not tt so what do I know. I do think and say consistently that at least in conte’s style the wing backs are really expected to attack and have a lot of freedom. Hakimi has done that brilliantly at inter this season. I just don’t think Dave has the pace or ball skills to attack like Hakimi or cho. But he is a good defender. If you don’t have that wide attacking threat the whole system suffers

Edited May 28, 2021 by ozboy

[Jezz]

On 25/05/2021 at 06:46, JM7 said:

I really hope that next season that we can close the gap on City. We’ve been poor in the league since Conte’s title - either missing out on top 4 or just scraping in. It’s not good enough and we’ve definitely dropped a level. 

Agree. We've hovered around 3rd-5th and haven't been a title threat.

• 2017/2018 = 5th (70 points)
• 2018/2019 = 3rd (72 points)
• 2019/2020 = 4th (66 points)
• 2020/2021 = 4th (67 points)

[LongtimerLurker]

£200m worth of transfers gets you a 1 point increase in modern day football 😂😂

1 hour ago, Jezz said:

Agree. We've hovered around 3rd-5th and haven't been a title threat.

• 2017/2018 = 5th (70 points)
• 2018/2019 = 3rd (72 points)
• 2019/2020 = 4th (66 points)
• 2020/2021 = 4th (67 points)

So assuming 70 points is the lowest we would ever finish with Conte were he to stay on, we would have made top 4 all of the seasons under him except the one in which we won the Fa cup. Funny how that season we underperformed but still finished with more points than the last two seasons. We also had Eden which is a big factor.

This suggests to me we had an elite coach and the board dropped the ball, Antonio was a victim of his own success. We backed Sarri with the Jorgh, Higuain and Kova loan signings if you compare those names to the Emersons, drinkwaters and Bakyokos it paints a stark contrast.

 

Edited May 28, 2021 by LongtimerLurker

[axman2526]

We have heard the Pep has an excellent 14 wins from 15 cup finals.

How is TT record in them I wonder.