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27 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

They did? Have a look at everyone complaining about the treatment off senior players like Jorgi and Rudi? Bit weird your instant response to a criticism of TT is to bring up Frank - were you not one of the ones telling us to move on?!

 

You’re misunderstanding, I’m not saying he’ll only start them. What I’m saying is when it comes time to hook someone, the youngsters are always first in the firing line, even when you have senior players like Jorginho stinking the place out.

My whole point was about the microanalyising part, it's being done with TT in a way it wasn't with even Sarri, and in regards to him treating young players differently the guy that replaced Billy was a youth player while two of our big summer signings stayed on the bench, also Mount stayed on the pitch while our record signing (who was being selected ahead of Mount early on in the season) was hauled off.

Don't get me wrong all in all Lampard's youth policy overall was great which is kind of the point.

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8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I don't think Tuchel did anything wrong with his starting lineup. At all.

It's simply not his fault that Kai Havertz missed and that Jorginho didn't see where Kepa was, those are individual mistakes and those particular players are to be the only responsible for this loss. 

It's got to be on Tuchel at some point when we play without a striker and the other players keep messing up chances game after game.

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7 minutes ago, jack h said:

It's got to be on Tuchel at some point when we play without a striker and the other players keep messing up chances game after game.

I take back what I said.

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Starting line up was fine, I won't blame him for that. It's the players (again) I have a problem with. Some of them just can't be motivated in certain games. It's like they exhaust all of their emotions in the previous game and can't build themselves up again for a game against a mid table team. They will never be winners with that type of attitude, they will always be nearly men. Chilwell, Jorginho, Havertz and Pulisic were the ones that let the side down today. They simply didn't match the same attitude and commitment they had shown in previous games. All it takes is one player to derail a performance, but I thought all four of them were as bad as each other from the first minute tonight.

Tuchel got it wrong at half time though. Bringing Hudson-Odoi on for Gilmour didn't help us single bit, all it did was kill our passing and movement in midfield and take Mount out of the game, one of the players you don't want to see that happen to. An ineffective Mount makes us a much worse team. Jorginho should have come off at half time, he was never going to be any use to us once Arsenal went ultra defensive.

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43 minutes ago, Sindre said:

Don't have a problem with criticism.

But the constant whining about Tuchel supposedly treating the young lads different is tedious. 

I'm sorry Sindre, IMO you don't have a leg to stand on here.

Any reasonable person who watched that first half and saw how Gilmour and Jorginho were performing could see one was playing really well and the other was playing very poorly, (and I'm not just talking about culpability for the Arsenal goal). No credible argument can be made for the decision to take Gilmour off and keep Jorginho on. Particularly when we then had to go out and chase goals against a team defending deep. As others have pointed out, Jorginho is usually as much use as an ash-tray on a motorbike in those circumstances.

Tuchel picked the easy target to sub and he has done it before. But it's good to see he has admitted he made mistakes tonight.

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30 minutes ago, haviet1 said:

 

That is just comical to be honest. 

This is the first time in game since he took over where TT has seen all of the bad this team can produce front to back, as against WBA we still had some cutting edge to us.

This is the worst display we have seen since Leicester away in one of Frank's last games.

An incompetent defence, not overlooking a couple of times Arsenal cut through us in the second half and then messed the move up themselves, a pedestrian midfield saved only by young Billies drive for a half, a toothless attack and a general lack of appetite and drive to win a game or even look like they give a sh*t. Can TT handle this better than Frank and make this a one off or will our players turn on him too?

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https://weaintgotnohistory.sbnation.com/2021/5/12/22433118/tuchel-rues-sending-wrong-message-with-too-many-changes-in-last-wake-up-call-for-chelsea

 

Good write up on what TT said after the game and a good point in there that seeing youth players on the bench is nice but when you do that and leave Kante and Rudiger at home it sends a message that you expect it to be easy and use the kids late on, and that got transmitted to the players.

Let's see if we do indeed "wake up" now.

If TT and the boys deliver the two trophies and top 4 this will all long be forgiven and forgotten. If this sets the rot in then...

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2 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Chelsea 0 -1 Arsenal

Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd

Chelsea 0-0 Spurs

Chelsea 0-2 Liverpool

Chelsea 1-3 Man City

I know this isn't all on Tuchel but its pretty horrific.

That doesn't bode well for when Leicester visit next week.  Shouldn't be this hard.

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there's a handful of games left, most of the old timers are on the bench, bollox to scientific recovery, play the almost same team with maybe 2 or 3 rotating at the bleedin most, its not rocket science but these silly Bs think it is, I know Brenda's mob had an extra day off before Sat final but he pretty much played his best 11 and got the points yesterday at OT, top class footballers played top class football when I was a wee lad wo all this science bollox, if he keeps this rotation up could be, I say could be, losers medals and Europa League. A win today would of imo sealed top 4.

 

p.s. If Kepa starts that final Im gonna find it difficult to watch

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3 hours ago, jack_super_class said:

Chelsea 0 -1 Arsenal

Chelsea 0-0 Man Utd

Chelsea 0-0 Spurs

Chelsea 0-2 Liverpool

Chelsea 1-3 Man City

I know this isn't all on Tuchel but its pretty horrific.

Arsenal, like United and Spurs (though they did not face TT at the bridge) set up the same way, defend deep, counter and look to set pieces.

On all 3 occasions it got them a clean sheet. Leicester will not doubt copy this and we have to break through them.

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2 hours ago, General said:

there's a handful of games left, most of the old timers are on the bench, bollox to scientific recovery, play the almost same team with maybe 2 or 3 rotating at the bleedin most, its not rocket science but these silly Bs think it is, I know Brenda's mob had an extra day off before Sat final but he pretty much played his best 11 and got the points yesterday at OT, class footballers played top class football when I was a wee lad wo all this science bollox, if he keeps this rotation up could be, I say could be, losers medals and Europa League. A win today would of imo sealed top 4.

 

p.s. If Kepa starts that final Im gonna find it difficult to watch

The top-class footballers when you were a wee lad played one game a week, at a much slower pace, and weren't multi-million dollar business assets.

Athletes today are required to operate at the limits of human endurance and yet because of "science bollox" they are able to do so into their late 30s.

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Posted (edited)

Hypothetically, after admitting getting it badly wrong against Arsenal, will Roman have a change of heart on keeping TT if we do not make top 4 and/or win the CL?

And would we see it as a failure having got back to 3rd in the league and two finals if we end up with runners up medals in both and dropping out of the top 4?

 

For me to answer the Roman one I think he would still give him next season but the new contract may not be there this summer.

For the second in would say TT made a rod for his own back. If we got dumped in both semis but made top 4 we would say he saved the season. To get up there though and fall out of the top 4 would be a huge failure imo.

Edited by axman2526
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8 hours ago, axman2526 said:

The starting lineup should have been enough. Not on him that Kai misses a great chance, Mount misses 2 good ones and Jorgi sets them up for their goal.

However the subs are on him. We were poor in the first half but every change he made, made us worse. 

Giroud hasn't played in weeks or months

CHO and Reece had very2 good combination under Lamp but it wasn't effective. I much rather cho play in reece position and we drop azpi

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13 hours ago, Gol15 said:

I agree with all that and I have said this myself a couple of times in different threads - Gilmour has the playstyle similar to Kovacic so all 3 of them are at their best while having more freedom either with the ball or like in Kante's case just to roam and read the game.

I would go for Ndidi for example and let them fight for the starting lineup because part from Jorginho we lack a classical DM. I honestly believe that Werner can improve his finishing and Havertz and Pulisic will only get better so if it was me I would prioritize a new world class CB whoever that might be and a DM like you say.

And last night showed why we need a back up DM that can be used to rest Jorginho or used in different tactics to Jorginho. Had we got one, Jorginho comes off and we keep the best midfielder on last night (Gilmour). We could have even switched to a back 4 with the cover of a DM.

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Posted (edited)

Tuchel thought said he made too many changes which is weird. Kante was dealing with injury, he said Rudiger need a rest, same with werner. 

So I don't think we made too many changes though, probably only Gilmour and kepa who were not regular. Zouma was always going to be a problem as lcb, he always look uncomfortable using his left foot. 

 

Edited by Bob stark
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9 hours ago, just said:

Any reasonable person who watched that first half and saw how Gilmour and Jorginho were performing could see one was playing really well and the other was playing very poorly, (and I'm not just talking about culpability for the Arsenal goal). No credible argument can be made for the decision to take Gilmour off and keep Jorginho on. Particularly when we then had to go out and chase goals against a team defending deep. As others have pointed out, Jorginho is usually as much use as an ash-tray on a motorbike in those circumstances.

Tuchel picked the easy target to sub and he has done it before. But it's good to see he has admitted he made mistakes tonight.

Gilmour was much better on the day. No doubt about it.

I've explained my stance on this though. It was tactical and Jorginho is far better than Gilmour defensively and you always need someone with defensive fibres in midfield.

For now there should be no doubt that Jorginho is a better player than Gilmour as well. Worse on the day but I think he's totally earned Tuchel's trust with some massive performances against the top teams of Europe.

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11 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Bollocks. Jorginho defensive fibre? You’ve got to be kidding? Maybe when we sit deep he can cut passing lanes but when we’re pressing high he doesn’t have the physical attributes to cover ground.

 

When has Mount ever played particularly well when playing deep in a two for us? Not a single game comes to mind. He was involved a lot in the first half and barely got involved in the second.

 

Are you intentionally failing to understand? It’s not about who he replaced him with. It’s about the player who was hooked. If that was one of the youngsters who put in that shocker in the first half and directly cost a goal you can guarantee they’d have been hooked at half time and not given the full 90 minutes to continue their sh*te performance in the second half.

Tbf Jorginho have been playing very2 well for pretty much all game that I watched post his MotM against wba. 

Mount playing deeper is actually an idea that intrigue me many time and I am surprised it didn't work out pretty much everytime we tried it under Tuchel. 

There are so many people who said Havertz should play as 9 but you are right it has been a toss up this season. 

 

 

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48 minutes ago, RMH said:

And last night showed why we need a back up DM that can be used to rest Jorginho or used in different tactics to Jorginho. Had we got one, Jorginho comes off and we keep the best midfielder on last night (Gilmour). We could have even switched to a back 4 with the cover of a DM.

Backup or an upgrade/move in a different direction? Personally not a fan of deep lying playmaker. I’d rather we got rid & spend the money on a Rice/Bissouma type player.

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Just now, ducavis said:

Backup or an upgrade/move in a different direction? Personally not a fan of deep lying playmaker. I’d rather we got rid & spend the money on a Rice/Bissouma type player.

It really depend on what is the plan going forward, you really don't want to end up with Bakayoko/Jorginho situation. 

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