Official Thomas Tuchel *Now Sacked*

[Bob stark]

9 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

If it had been Costa, I think he would have buried both.

Maybe, but you don't want to play that game though.

[Bob stark]

9 hours ago, KonaKai Blue said:

Rather than investing in players that the manager may or not want, we should invest in players that are actually good no matter who is in charge. 

So your manager said I want a tall rb who can defend because our lb is already very2 good  offensively but bad defensively. You said hell no, I give you TAA instead. 

 

 

 

[Bob stark]

13 hours ago, Strider6003 said:

 

 

Edited May 17, 2021 by Bob stark
Double post

[evissy]

Weird how close we are to have a worse season than last season with Frank. If we fail to make to 4 and lose the final it is official. Anyway I feel we will make top 4 by winning Leicester and Villa... 

 

[big blue]

11 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Going to go down as a poorer Chelsea manager than Avram Grant imo. Grant was one JT lapse of concentration away from glory. TT...well it is gonna be ugly in the Dragon stadium

Avram Grant inherited a fantastic side, most of with had won the league 2 out of the last 3 seasons, and had players that were competing for ballon d'or. Cant really say the same about this Chelsea side, whilst it isnt a poor side,  it is a squad of players mixed with potential, and some that are past their prime. Very few key players in this team are in their prime.

[ashwin]

2 hours ago, big blue said:

Avram Grant inherited a fantastic side, most of with had won the league 2 out of the last 3 seasons, and had players that were competing for ballon d'or. Cant really say the same about this Chelsea side, whilst it isnt a poor side,  it is a squad of players mixed with potential, and some that are past their prime. Very few key players in this team are in their prime.

Spot on. I think we need to severely lower our expectations with the current crop for at least a year or two. And take some bad results due to lack of experience and character on the chin and move on.

This lack of perspective is the reason Lampard got sacked, and is why Tuchel is going to be under continuous pressure as well. Very sad.

And despite the bad results, this is why Lampard's sacking was entirely premature. I would have gladly taken a year or two in the Europa League while the team gained experience and reached their potential (which is really up there).

I think it's truly remarkable that we are where we are this season with all the current limitations in the team. We miss out on top four AND lost the Champs League final and I will still give Tuchel a clean slate for next season before jumping to any conclusions.

[LongtimerLurker]

I think despite the current narrative we are in a good position. Thomas Tuchel was brought in to help us make the champions league next season. He had 19 games to do it and if he falls short of the hurdle at least we could all see the level of manager and potential success he can bring to Chelsea fc.

Liverpool under Klopp failed to make the UCL in their first season and Man city only just made top 4 in Pep's first season.

What I think we must give Tom and the team credit for is despite the must win scenario we find ourselves in we do have two opportunities to qualify for the champions league. At this stage of the season what more can you ask for than 2 different routes to the UCL. 

[axman2526]

3 hours ago, ashwin said:

Spot on. I think we need to severely lower our expectations with the current crop for at least a year or two. And take some bad results due to lack of experience and character on the chin and move on.

This lack of perspective is the reason Lampard got sacked, and is why Tuchel is going to be under continuous pressure as well. Very sad.

And despite the bad results, this is why Lampard's sacking was entirely premature. I would have gladly taken a year or two in the Europa League while the team gained experience and reached their potential (which is really up there).

I think it's truly remarkable that we are where we are this season with all the current limitations in the team. We miss out on top four AND lost the Champs League final and I will still give Tuchel a clean slate for next season before jumping to any conclusions.

Agreed about Frank, many of us were willing to give him that time of a few years in football wilderness to build something special. The board were not, and if they were not going to give him a pass for a season out of the CL, I doubt TT gets ones either especially having had us in third then mucked it up.

[Argo]

4 hours ago, ashwin said:

Spot on. I think we need to severely lower our expectations with the current crop for at least a year or two. And take some bad results due to lack of experience and character on the chin and move on.

This lack of perspective is the reason Lampard got sacked, and is why Tuchel is going to be under continuous pressure as well. Very sad.

And despite the bad results, this is why Lampard's sacking was entirely premature. I would have gladly taken a year or two in the Europa League while the team gained experience and reached their potential (which is really up there).

I think it's truly remarkable that we are where we are this season with all the current limitations in the team. We miss out on top four AND lost the Champs League final and I will still give Tuchel a clean slate for next season before jumping to any conclusions.

I really wish things weren't considered so black and white, the narrative that seems to be flying around is anyone who thought we needed to change from Lampard wanted/expected instant title wins which couldn't be further from the truth.

Even in a building process there's still bare minimum targets you have to hit. There's middle ground between expecting it all immediately and expecting better than what we got at the very end (and let's be honest the beggining of that season was just as bad but on that occasion the benefit of the doubt was given due to the pre season schedule).

[Valerie]

10 minutes ago, Argo said:

I really wish things weren't considered so black and white, the narrative that seems to be flying around is anyone who thought we needed to change from Lampard wanted/expected instant title wins which couldn't be further from the truth.

Even in a building process there's still bare minimum targets you have to hit. There's middle ground between expecting it all immediately and expecting better than what we got at the very end (and let's be honest the beggining of that season was just as bad but on that occasion the benefit of the doubt was given due to the pre season schedule).

Honestly @Argo, a middle ground?! Haven't you learned anything in your years on this forum? We only do extremes. 

[forbzy]

10 hours ago, evissy said:

Weird how close we are to have a worse season than last season with Frank. If we fail to make to 4 and lose the final it is official. Anyway I feel we will make top 4 by winning Leicester and Villa... 

 

You make it sound like last season under Frank was bad. While we didn't win anything it was a very enjoyable season overall I thought. We played some entertaining football and introduced a lot of promising young players to our team, under the restrictions of a transfer ban. Arguably we took a step backwards in some aspects this season, since a lot of the new signings have not yet convinced. The squad on the whole has clearly been strengthened but future success relies on some of these players fulfilling their potential. In the meantime I think some youth players have suffered as a result as they have had their development slowed down again to make way for the new big signings. It may well be that some of these youth products (e.g. Tammy/CHO) are not quite good enough. However they have been limited in minutes even when their expensive replacements have been regularly misfiring and I think that could have been managed much better. I wolud argue that most players will struggle to make much progress when they get 15-20 minute runouts at best.

[forbzy]

38 minutes ago, Argo said:

I really wish things weren't considered so black and white, the narrative that seems to be flying around is anyone who thought we needed to change from Lampard wanted/expected instant title wins which couldn't be further from the truth.

Even in a building process there's still bare minimum targets you have to hit. There's middle ground between expecting it all immediately and expecting better than what we got at the very end (and let's be honest the beggining of that season was just as bad but on that occasion the benefit of the doubt was given due to the pre season schedule).

In fairness I think those comments were speculating on what the board might do vs. their personal opinions. I personally think Tuchel should stay no matter how this season ends. We have a young team that needs some consistent management if it is going to build/progress. If we continually change manager at this stage we will ultimately not be able to build anything with this squad. We were able to have that success in the past because the regular changing of managers happened from a point where we already had a fantastic core team build through Ranieri/Jose. Even Avram was a post away from a Champs League final with that squad. What we have now is nowhere near what he worked with. Does it have potential? Absolutely. But that potential needs to be nurtured and it may be a few seasons before we see it reach full potential. Patience is needed and ideally some managerial consistency.

[Argo]

16 minutes ago, forbzy said:

In fairness I think those comments were speculating on what the board might do vs. their personal opinions. I personally think Tuchel should stay no matter how this season ends. We have a young team that needs some consistent management if it is going to build/progress. If we continually change manager at this stage we will ultimately not be able to build anything with this squad. 

That's the bit I don't agree on, changing managers until we get it right is 100% the preferable option compared to sticking to something not working for the sake of (false) stability. Hopefully we've got the right man now and I personally believe we have regardless of what happens from now till the end.

It's all well and good saying we could/should have given Lampard x amount of years to learn on the job and eventually become at a level of the top managers but what if he didn't? What then? Much more experienced managers have failed to properly see through transition's which is why I've always been in the belief time should be earned, even in a rebuild you need to see a clear blueprint, if you just accept mediocrity because you like the person and/or think it makes you a better fan then it's a slippery slope, history suggests you'll end up where Arsenal or possibly even Newcastle are if you go down that rabbit hole.

[Gol15]

Would a failure to secure the top 4 mean that Tuchel isn't good enough for the job? I don't know. Klopp lost his first CL final with Liverpool but he won the second one so there's that, maybe Tuchel needs time to find the players that can play a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 because he's still dealing with the remnants of Conte's tactic that suits our players the most defensive-wise.

I do know however that if we fail to secure the top 4 that the club will look like we're not good enough to win finals anymore. Tuchel will be the manager that lost back to back CL finals which would be a hard thing to deal with because you can be sure that the press and the way the commentators view us would be to point out how we lost our finals with him and he'll have that negative aura about him. So by not securing the top 4 in any way we might suffer but that might also make us stronger for the long run as Tuchel is a good manager.

[forbzy]

8 minutes ago, Argo said:

That's the bit I don't agree on, changing managers until we get it right is 100% the preferable option compared to sticking to something not working for the sake of (false) stability. Hopefully we've got the right man now and I personally believe we have regardless of what happens from now till the end.

It's all well and good saying we could/should have given Lampard x amount of years to learn on the job and eventually become at a level of the top managers but what if he didn't? What then? Much more experienced managers have failed to properly see through transition's which is why I've always been in the belief time should be earned, even in a rebuild you need to see a clear blueprint, if you just accept mediocrity because you like the person and/or think it makes you a better fan then it's a slippery slope, history suggests you'll end up where Arsenal or possibly even Newcastle are if you go down that rabbit hole.

I agree that all managers ultimately have to be held accountable for results. However when a team is being rebuilt I think more patience is required from the board. In Lampard's case he largely paid the penalty for 1 poor month when things went wrong. After the Leeds game at home in late November things were looking good. we were scoring a decent number of goals and had laso started to keep more clean sheets with Mendy/Silva added. We had secured progress to the knockout stages of the Champs League and there was a lot of room for optimism. Then we hit a poor run of form and he was out barely a month later. If the board applies similar logic to Tuchel he could easily be fired if we finish this season poorly. Then what? Sure there are other managers out there but next season would then potentially have to be regarded as a new start without unexpected results.

[forbzy]

9 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Would a failure to secure the top 4 mean that Tuchel isn't good enough for the job? I don't know. Klopp lost his first CL final with Liverpool but he won the second one so there's that, maybe Tuchel needs time to find the players that can play a 4-3-3 or 4-2-3-1 because he's still dealing with the remnants of Conte's tactic that suits our players the most defensive-wise.

I do know however that if we fail to secure the top 4 that the club will look like we're not good enough to win finals anymore. Tuchel will be the manager that lost back to back CL finals which would be a hard thing to deal with because you can be sure that the press and the way the commentators view us would be to point out how we lost our finals with him and he'll have that negative aura about him. So by not securing the top 4 in any way we might suffer but that might also make us stronger for the long run as Tuchel is a good manager.

Klopp won nothing in his first 3 seasons at Liverpool finishing 8th, 4th, and 4th. They made the Champions League final that third season and lost to Real, but they were not in contention for the domestic league at any point until his 4th season. During that time Klopp was supported by the board with numerous high profile signings too. I can't see any manager being given so much time by the Chelsea board.

[sonic90]

2 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Klopp won nothing in his first 3 seasons at Liverpool finishing 8th, 4th, and 4th. They made the Champions League final that third season and lost to Real, but they were not in contention for the domestic league at any point until his 4th season. During that time Klopp was supported by the board with numerous high profile signings too. I can't see any manager being given so much time by the Chelsea board.

He also lost the EL final and at one point looked to be a serial bottler, if you add to the fact he lose the CL final with Dortmund as well.

[Argo]

3 minutes ago, forbzy said:

I agree that all managers ultimately have to be held accountable for results. However when a team is being rebuilt I think more patience is required from the board. In Lampard's case he largely paid the penalty for 1 poor month when things went wrong. After the Leeds game at home in late November things were looking good. we were scoring a decent number of goals and had laso started to keep more clean sheets with Mendy/Silva added. We had secured progress to the knockout stages of the Champs League and there was a lot of room for optimism. Then we hit a poor run of form and he was out barely a month later. If the board applies similar logic to Tuchel he could easily be fired if we finish this season poorly. Then what? Sure there are other managers out there but next season would then potentially have to be regarded as a new start without unexpected results.

I don't agree with the one poor month narrative either, it's not like we were producing performances week in week out for a season and a half and had a few iffy results and sacked him. It went totally under the radar but we had a sustained run of relegation form in the middle third of last season, the poor run at the end of Lampard's tenure wasn't the first sign of trouble that people like to portray.

I won't rewrite history and say there wasn't promise in the first season and all in all I think he did to a very good job under the circumstances but there was also clear deficiency's to our approach that needed ironing out, the main argument in Frank's defense was it was more the players than him, he then got the players and we ultimately got even worse. To look as bad as we became with one of the all time greats (who is still world class) at CB and Edou in goal was outrageous (and let's be honest without those two the collapse would have likely happened sooner and not only that they probably prevented the winter from being even more grim).

[axman2526]

It is rather simple for me. The board made it clear where we were and missing put on being in the CL was not on, after investing so heavily they needed the return of being in the CL. Losing the final to City wont cost him his job, however getting us to third then bottling it will imo.

He was aware of what the club expects when he came in. He messed up by deciding he cared about Kepas feelings and if Mendy is in goal he is in the right place to recieve Jorgis awful backpass.  He blew it against Arsenal wanting to lift the Fa cup and then blew the cup final as well.

Anyone who thinks he is not under massive pressure and his job is not on the line is deluding themselves to how Chelsea as a club works.

There was also talk as to there being a break clause in TT contract that if either party was not happy in the summer we could part ways with either small or no compo paid. I am very sure if we end up in the Europa the board will activate said clause.

[Argo]

If someone is willing to take this bet going the other way then if he gets sacked this summer i will not post a year and donate £200 to the forum . Anyone willing to take that bet on in reverse? (only activated if we miss out on CL football).

It's just simply not going to happen.

Edited May 17, 2021 by Argo

[M.M.B]

Its not going to happen. Abramovich has enough egg on his face with the ESL debacle, & that new sh*tty home kit.

[just]

1 minute ago, M.M.B said:

Its not going to happen. Abramovich has enough egg on his face with the ESL debacle, & that new sh*tty home kit.

If we don't make top four via our league results and lose the CL final, it could all depend on what side of the bed Roman gets out of.

Tuchel missing out on everything after getting us into pole position, Zidane rumoured to be leaving Madrid soon. I could see Roman liking a bit of Zizou in those circumstances.

Everyone should have learned by now. When it comes to Roman, anything can happen.

[Argo]

2 minutes ago, just said:

If we don't make top four via our league results and lose the CL final, it could all depend on what side of the bed Roman gets out of.

Tuchel missing out on everything after getting us into pole position, Zidane rumoured to be leaving Madrid soon. I could see Roman liking a bit of Zizou in those circumstances.

Everyone should have learned by now. When it comes to Roman, anything can happen.

The last time we failed in all our objectives but the season was still a relative success despite that was Jose's first season back and he kept his job. 

Hiddink first time round was appointed to recover the title and despite the fact he "failed" at that we were desperate to keep him (before we knew if he would deliver the FA Cup or not).

Theoretically at the time of TT appointment us having title winning form and still missing out on top 4 was technically possible and getting past Leti was a long shot let alone getting to the final. We were massively up against it at that point with the volume of teams infront of us, even Arsenal clawed above us at that point to put it into context.

If he doesn't kick on next season all bets are off but I am absolutely certain he's in no danger this summer.

[Nibs]

I agree, no danger of TT not being in charge for next season.

Didn't think I would warm to TT but he's won me over and up until a week ago has done a remarkable job. But a week is a long time in football and he has certainly lost that golden touch in the last couple of games. His stubbornness to play the likes of  Kepa, Alonso, Jorginho and Ziyech has backfired big time. I can understand him having a concern about fatigue and injuries, but he;s got it wrong and now has to put it right in the next three games. 

But even if he fails to secure top 4 and we lose the CL final (God forbid), he will still be at the helm for the new season. 

[dkw]

25 minutes ago, just said:

If we don't make top four via our league results and lose the CL final, it could all depend on what side of the bed Roman gets out of.

Tuchel missing out on everything after getting us into pole position, Zidane rumoured to be leaving Madrid soon. I could see Roman liking a bit of Zizou in those circumstances.

Everyone should have learned by now. When it comes to Roman, anything can happen.

Tuchel replaced Lampard to get Champions league, that's a certainty and the reason Roman jumped. If he doesn't get Champions League qualification then he gets sacked.