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Official Thomas Tuchel


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5 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Is it absurd? Do you still look back with fond memories Dean about us beating Liverpool in the semi final in 2008 or is your main memory from that campaign the devastation of JT slipping on his ar$e? I know which mine was, I still remember moving arms up to celebrate as surely JT would not let us down, only to end up face first in to my bed letting out a scream.

Yes I did enjoy watching us beat Real, and Atletico, and Sevilla et al. I also really enjoyed finally doing Liverpool at that time but it became pointless once Anelka saw his effort saved. It was not possible for that joy before to surpass that disappointment and pain.

I remember far more fondly those amazing games against Ronaldinhos Barca, and Ballacks Bayern. 4 fantastic games, games to be proud of, and memories enjoyed all the more because we lost out in a semifinal rather than being so close yet so far away in the final. For me the joy of those games long surpassed the pain of Garcia and his "goal".

I enjoyed us knocking City out in the Fa cup this year, and United the year before. Both of those long fading to memory now.

I respect how you feel about it as an achievement, it is just not how I process it as a fan. Hopefully the above explains that.

I guess we’re not going to agree on this :). That’s fine. See my response to Just for why i don’t think the numbers are the only thing that matters to Roman. There’s a qualitative element that I think is being overlooked.
 

Put yourself in Roman’s shoes. Do you see an available manager out there who would have a) bettered Tuchel’s record so far and b) who is better equipped to get results (fulfil the quantitative mandate) next season? If not, why would you not give Tommy at least one full season?

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As an after thought - for all the talk of Roman’s ruthlessness, i would argue he is probably LESS ruthless than the fan base on aggregate. If it were up to the fans, the likes of Scolari, AVB, Grant would have been sacked even sooner than they were. Sarri would have been sacked in February 2019. So Roman is pretty much in synch with the fans, a bit less ruthless, and reads the room pretty well. On that basis, perhaps we can assume that if the fans don’t think Tommy should be sacked, Roman will be aligned with this view.

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Posted (edited)

My favourite thing in this thread is the use of 9th to 5th/4th and what an amazing achievement that would be.
 

It certainly makes it sound a lot better than when you break it down. 5 points off 4th with 18 games to go - not quite the insurmountable peak some on here claim it to have been.

Edited by EdinburghBlue
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9 hours ago, axman2526 said:

I sooner would have had Liverpool knock us out last season and Luton this season than lose the finals because again, for me as a fan, losing a final is no better than going out in the first round, in fact I would sooner lose in the first round, far less painful.

I too wish we lost to Luton - you know, as a fan - but that one is not on Tommy, that's Frank's fault.

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10 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

It certainly makes it sound a lot better than when you break it down. 5 points off 4th with 18 games to go - not quite the insurmountable peak some on here claim it to have been.

It was 7 points.

Seven points and overtaking four teams that had a pretty significant head start on you. Doing that while also maneuvering your team to two Cup-finals isn't excactly some minor achievement.

 

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14 minutes ago, Sindre said:

It was 7 points.

Seven points and overtaking four teams that had a pretty significant head start on you. Doing that while also maneuvering your team to two Cup-finals isn't excactly some minor achievement.

 

You’re taking in to account results that happened after the fact. When Lamped was sacked it was 5 points. I’ll even attach the table for you.

DAE9190D-4D49-4E61-B240-70C3D842DE77.thumb.jpeg.125730fd03e7da4e70e889a835f9db3f.jpeg
 

Also, Tuchel was hired when we were 5 points adrift. No one knew what the games that hadn’t been played yet would turn out, the fact remains we were 5 points off of fourth. Here’s also the BBC Sport article the day he was hired which confirms it.

6FC35406-C3CA-4080-8BC1-529242002148.thumb.jpeg.ec642b2c07b5397f3b14eea10494ba5d.jpeg

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5 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Also, Tuchel was hired when we were 5 points adrift. No one knew what the games that hadn’t been played yet would turn out, the fact remains we were 5 points off of fourth. Here’s also the BBC Sport article the day he was hired which confirms it.

Really think you are knitpicking here.

But alright, five points off Liverpool and four points of Tottenham who had a game in hand.

It wasn't an easy task at all.

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1 hour ago, Sindre said:

Really think you are knitpicking here.

But alright, five points off Liverpool and four points of Tottenham who had a game in hand.

It wasn't an easy task at all.

You replied to me, trying to correct something which was already factually correct. I think you’ll find that it was you that tried to nitpick my post and I merely gave you the evidence to disprove it.
 

5 points in 18 games? Even if we go with your 7 points. It’s not easy but nor is it a miracle that it’s made out to be. a team clawing a 7 point difference back in half a season is not special. It’s absurd to make out it’s an incredible points swing over half a season. 3 games is all it takes to turn that around. We had 5 times that to turn it around with favourable fixtures. We were still well in the running for top 4 when Frank left and Tuchel arrived.

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15 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

You replied to me, trying to correct something which was already factually correct. I think you’ll find that it was you that tried to nitpick my post and I merely gave you the evidence to disprove it.
 

5 points in 18 games? Even if we go with your 7 points. It’s not easy but nor is it a miracle that it’s made out to be. a team clawing a 7 point difference back in half a season is not special. It’s absurd to make out it’s an incredible points swing over half a season. 3 games is all it takes to turn that around. We had 5 times that to turn it around with favourable fixtures. We were still well in the running for top 4 when Frank left and Tuchel arrived.

We were in a tailspin when Frank left. He’d lost the dressing room, and we were completely at sea, with no playing style, no system. We were past the point of no return. I never joined the pile-on and I didn’t clamour for his dismissal. But that’s what my head was telling me and I have greater conviction on it now. We were never going to make 4th. Of course we will never know the counterfactual so I can’t prove anything. But I believe time will prove me right. Frank has the attributes to be a good manager, but not quite enough to succeed at the very top - which is a very hard thing to do. One of the hardest things in the world. I can elaborate on what I think Frank lacks to make it to the very top of management but no time now :). 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Dean said:

We were in a tailspin when Frank left. He’d lost the dressing room, and we were completely at sea, with no playing style, no system. We were past the point of no return. I never joined the pile-on and I didn’t clamour for his dismissal. But that’s what my head was telling me and I have greater conviction on it now. We were never going to make 4th. Of course we will never know the counterfactual so I can’t prove anything. But I believe time will prove me right. Frank has the attributes to be a good manager, but not quite enough to succeed at the very top - which is a very hard thing to do. One of the hardest things in the world. I can elaborate on what I think Frank lacks to make it to the very top of management but no time now :). 

I understand your viewpoint and I respect it but again, it’s not the subject we’re discussing on my original point. We’re talking about if it was a particularly miraculous points differential for TT to turn around. Frank was sacked, that decision was made but what I’m taking issue with is the constant claim that turning around a 7 point differential across 18 games is spectacular - it is a small number of points across a large number of games 7 (5 actually at the time) points with 54 to play for.

Edited by EdinburghBlue
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4 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I understand your viewpoint and I respect it but again, it’s not the subject we’re discussing on my original point. We’re talking about if it was a particularly miraculous points differential for TT to turn around. Frank was sacked, that decision was made but what I’m taking issue with is the constant claim that turning around a 7 point differential across 18 games is spectacular - it is a small number of points across a large number of games 7 points with 54 to play for.

The recent games we lost are 1:0 loses, one due to our own mistake and the other due to a long distance shot. Tuchel had no time to really train the squad but as soon as we came our defense got better and we stopped losing games, we reached the FA Cup and CL final which nobody really expected. Lampard didn't look to change the 4-3-3 formation and nothing was working so Tuchel did a small miracle to turn the season around in a very limited time frame, stats show that we have been among the top 2-3 teams since he arrived. 

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7 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

I understand your viewpoint and I respect it but again, it’s not the subject we’re discussing on my original point. We’re talking about if it was a particularly miraculous points differential for TT to turn around. Frank was sacked, that decision was made but what I’m taking issue with is the constant claim that turning around a 7 point differential across 18 games is spectacular - it is a small number of points across a large number of games 7 points with 54 to play for.

That’s fair. My only slight counter would be - while not miraculous- it’s pretty impressive considering the competition. After all Liverpool did win the league last year and they seem to have rediscovered that form (including the subliminal pressure on refs to somehow make the margins work in their favour:))just at the right (wrong for us) time. 
 

As an aside, while this is causing us extreme anguish, it’s all making for a pretty fascinating end to the season from a neutral perspective and is great for the league. 

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18 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The recent games we lost are 1:0 loses, one due to our own mistake and the other due to a long distance shot. Tuchel had no time to really train the squad but as soon as we came our defense got better and we stopped losing games, we reached the FA Cup and CL final which nobody really expected. Lampard didn't look to change the 4-3-3 formation and nothing was working so Tuchel did a small miracle to turn the season around in a very limited time frame, stats show that we have been among the top 2-3 teams since he arrived. 

Why is it all the posters who harped on about moving on from Lampard are always so keen to bring him up whenever anyone says even the slightest thing about Tuchel? It’s so hypocritical. 
To counter your point, every game we lost under Frank was due to bad defending so it wasn’t his fault, he wasn’t on the park doing the defending? The buck stops with the manager. As for the defence getting better, of course it did. We are playing 5 at the back, I would hope that would improve it. We also have less goals, less expected goals and less shots under TT.

D843DC9C-B7E3-4A42-BA12-DEB9BB0FED5A.png.ba9f9d11a3881eb08d46ac6a30ed57c9.png

 

But yet again, this is a different discussion and wasn’t the subject though. I wasn’t comparing Lampard or Tuchel, I am talking about the points swing. You’re moving the golposts (😉) to argue a different point with me which is now irrelevant. Frank is gone, Tuchel is the manager so why you’re all so eager to constantly bring up Frank while telling others to move in is mental.

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17 minutes ago, Dean said:

That’s fair. My only slight counter would be - while not miraculous- it’s pretty impressive considering the competition. After all Liverpool did win the league last year and they seem to have rediscovered that form (including the subliminal pressure on refs to somehow make the margins work in their favour:))just at the right (wrong for us) time. 
 

As an aside, while this is causing us extreme anguish, it’s all making for a pretty fascinating end to the season from a neutral perspective and is great for the league. 

I don’t disagree turning it around is good. I just feel some people are going overboard with how impressive it has been. Indeed they did, but they’ve had a poor season by their standards & if we’re being totally honest, no one has been particularly impressive this year other than City. 
I also agree that for neutrals it’s probably the best scenario going in to the last two games other than City not having cake walked the league to a degree, but for us it’s horrendous. 

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Posted (edited)
51 minutes ago, EdinburghBlue said:

Why is it all the posters who harped on about moving on from Lampard are always so keen to bring him up whenever anyone says even the slightest thing about Tuchel? It’s so hypocritical. 
To counter your point, every game we lost under Frank was due to bad defending so it wasn’t his fault, he wasn’t on the park doing the defending? The buck stops with the manager. As for the defence getting better, of course it did. We are playing 5 at the back, I would hope that would improve it. We also have less goals, less expected goals and less shots under TT.

D843DC9C-B7E3-4A42-BA12-DEB9BB0FED5A.png.ba9f9d11a3881eb08d46ac6a30ed57c9.png

 

But yet again, this is a different discussion and wasn’t the subject though. I wasn’t comparing Lampard or Tuchel, I am talking about the points swing. You’re moving the golposts (😉) to argue a different point with me which is now irrelevant. Frank is gone, Tuchel is the manager so why you’re all so eager to constantly bring up Frank while telling others to move in is mental.

It's not hypocritical to bring up how we looked under Lampard and compare it to how we looked very soon under Tuchel and I was one of those not agreeing with Lampard's sacking just for the record.

If we are to look at how many points Tuchel won since he took over he managed to win more points in 15 games in comparison to Lampard's 19 games so he has done a great job winning more points where Lampard could have won 12 in total and that's despite not having any time to work on anything in particular.
So even if he didn't solve our attacking problems he has managed to make us a more stable team. The only thing that can be pointed out is our attacking problems which isn't anything new and it definitely didn't start with Tuchel so for that bigger problem he should be given a whole year to fix and a full pre-season at the very least.

This is how the table would look if we were to count it only from the point of Tuchel taking over:

Pos Team P W D L GD Pts
1 Man City 16 13 0 3 23 39
2 Chelsea 16 10 5 1 13 35
3 Man United 16 8 6 2 18 30
4 Liverpool 16 8 2 6 5 26
5 Leicester 16 7 4 5 6 25
6 Arsenal 16 7 4 5 6 25
7 Leeds 16 7 3 6 3 24
8 Everton 18 6 6 6 -3 24
9 Tottenham 17 7 2 8 4 23

So by all means 7 points doesn't look like much but if you consider the rest of the teams there has been only 1 team better than us since Tuchel took over which is a small miracle.

And here is just how we did after 25 games under Tuchel:

Won: 17
Drawn: 6
Lost: 2

Goals for: 34
Goals against: 11
Clean sheets: 18

Points per game: 2.04
Win rate: 68%
Loss rate: 8%
Clean sheet rate: 72%

And that same article from which you took that picture also has another one in case you missed it:

skysports-thomas-tuchel-chelsea_5283992.

So we have lost only 4 games under Tuchel and more than 5 under Lampard, it's safe to say that we are better now.

Edited by Gol15
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38 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

It's not hypocritical to bring up how we looked under Lampard and compare it to how we looked very soon under Tuchel and I was one of those not agreeing with Lampard's sacking just for the record.

If we are to look at how many points Tuchel won since he took over he managed to win more points in 15 games in comparison to Lampard's 19 games so he has done a great job winning more points where Lampard could have won 12 in total and that's despite not having any time to work on anything in particular.
So even if he didn't solve our attacking problems he has managed to make us a more stable team. The only thing that can be pointed out is our attacking problems which isn't anything new and it definitely didn't start with Tuchel so for that bigger problem he should be given a whole year to fix and a full pre-season at the very least.

This is how the table would look if we were to count it only from the point of Tuchel taking over:

Pos Team P W D L GD Pts
1 Man City 16 13 0 3 23 39
2 Chelsea 16 10 5 1 13 35
3 Man United 16 8 6 2 18 30
4 Liverpool 16 8 2 6 5 26
5 Leicester 16 7 4 5 6 25
6 Arsenal 16 7 4 5 6 25
7 Leeds 16 7 3 6 3 24
8 Everton 18 6 6 6 -3 24
9 Tottenham 17 7 2 8 4 23

So by all means 7 points doesn't look like much but if you consider the rest of the teams there has been only 1 team better than us since Tuchel took over which is a small miracle.

And here is just how we did after 25 games under Tuchel:

Won: 17
Drawn: 6
Lost: 2

Goals for: 34
Goals against: 11
Clean sheets: 18

Points per game: 2.04
Win rate: 68%
Loss rate: 8%
Clean sheet rate: 72%

And that same article from which you took that picture also has another one in case you missed it:

skysports-thomas-tuchel-chelsea_5283992.

So we have lost only 4 games under Tuchel and more than 5 under Lampard, it's safe to say that we are better now.

And how does this address the point @EdinburghBlue is making that to recover a 5 points gap in 17 games (or so) is nothing of a record breaking feat?

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33 minutes ago, Gol15 said:It's not hypocritical to bring up how we looked under Lampard and compare it to how we looked very soon under Tuchel and I was one of those not agreeing with Lampard's sacking just for the record.

If we are to look at how many points Tuchel won since he took over he managed to win more points in 15 games in comparison to Lampard's 19 games so he has done a great job winning more points where Lampard could have won 12 in total and that's despite not having any time to work on anything in particular.
So even if he didn't solve our attacking problems he has managed to make us a more stable team. The only thing that can be pointed out is our attacking problems which isn't anything new and it definitely didn't start with Tuchel so for that bigger problem he should be given a whole year to fix and a full pre-season at the very least.

This is how the table would look if we were to count it only from the point of Tuchel taking over:

Pos Team P W D L GD Pts
1 Man City 16 13 0 3 23 39
2 Chelsea 16 10 5 1 13 35
3 Man United 16 8 6 2 18 30
4 Liverpool 16 8 2 6 5 26
5 Leicester 16 7 4 5 6 25
6 Arsenal 16 7 4 5 6 25
7 Leeds 16 7 3 6 3 24
8 Everton 18 6 6 6 -3 24
9 Tottenham 17 7 2 8 4 23

So by all means 7 points doesn't look like much but if you consider the rest of the teams there has been only 1 team better than us since Tuchel took over which is a small miracle.

And here is just how we did after 25 games under Tuchel:

Won: 17
Drawn: 6
Lost: 2

Goals for: 34
Goals against: 11
Clean sheets: 18

Points per game: 2.04
Win rate: 68%
Loss rate: 8%
Clean sheet rate: 72%

And that same article from which you took that picture also has another one in case you missed it:

skysports-thomas-tuchel-chelsea_5283992.

So we have lost only 4 games under Tuchel and more than 5 under Lampard, it's safe to say that we are better now.

Again Gol, you’re arguing a point I never made. Did I say we were better under Lampard than Tuchel? No. There’s no disputing TT is the better manager, as he should be given his experience. I don’t care about comparing the two - Lampard is gone, whether you wanted him out or you didn’t.
This cock measuring between how good we are between TT and Lampard is bordering on an obsession for some. Even when the discussion has nothing to do with it, somehow it’s dragged back around to Lampard vs Tuchel. To quote many of the usual suspects on here “move on”. 
 

The point I made which a few have tried to disprove by bringing up Lampard (bizarrely) is a 5 point (when he took over) swing is not as massive as people in this thread are making it out to be. Is it good that he done it? Of course, but there was still 54 points to play for. 

If you disagree and think it’s a miraculous points turnover, that’s fine - you’re entitled to think that but if we got to the end of January in 2nd place next year 5 points behind the team in 1st would you say we’re out of the title race and it would be a miracle if we won it? No, it would be absurd to say that at that stage in a season... just as it was ridiculous to say we wouldn’t get top 4 at that stage... That is the point I’m making.

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6 minutes ago, RMH said:

And how does this address the point @EdinburghBlue is making that to recover a 5 points gap in 17 games (or so) is nothing of a record breaking feat?

The difference is that I believe that what Tuchel did was a small miracle, even if the deficit from top 4 was 7 points. Yes we might still lose the top 4 but we did significantly improve our results, that's how I see it.

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The bigger question with TT is do we extend his contract? Whatever the reservations were with him that had the club only offer him 18 months are still probably present, though to enter a final year on his contract would only create instability within the club. Our more senior members of the squad are very prone to throwing the toys out of the pram and if they were suddenly not picked for a prolonged length of time I've little doubt they would turn on Thomas as some are reported to have against Frank. So far he does appear to have been more than happy to keep a stable ship, keeping his squad content, He will have to upset a few next season, not to mention those not picked in the starting eleven on the 29th. If the board think he is the right man for the job they have to extend, give him some money to spend and hope his coaching ability can take us up a level.

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3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The difference is that I believe that what Tuchel did was a small miracle, even if the deficit from top 4 was 7 points. Yes we might still lose the top 4 but we did significantly improve our results, that's how I see it.

What's 34 -29?  Its why so many prefer the argument that we were in 9th, it sounds so much more dramatic. Games after the event have no relevance.

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3 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

The difference is that I believe that what Tuchel did was a small miracle, even if the deficit from top 4 was 7 points. Yes we might still lose the top 4 but we did significantly improve our results, that's how I see it.

It's not the first time a team closes or opens a gap of 5 points with 54 to play, it is in fact common place along a season for many teams. So no, closing a gap of 5 points is no miracle. You probably have stats that do not show this to be a unique event in the history of the PL, which would constitute a miracle, they'd probably show that it is quite normal.

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1 minute ago, RMH said:

It's not the first time a team closes or opens a gap of 5 points with 54 to play, it is in fact common place along a season for many teams. So no, closing a gap of 5 points is no miracle. You probably have stats that do not show this to be a unique event in the history of the PL, which would constitute a miracle, they'd probably show that it is quite normal.

I'm just saying that it's still a big deal all things considered but we don't need to agree on this being a small miracle, specially not if we fail to win the last remaining games.

Even so Tuchel did 1 training and went on to break some possession-based records against Wolves where we focused mainly not to lose. After 20 games played we had 30 points, 1 of those belong to Tuchel, 29 to Lampard. Liverpool had 37 points back then, 16 games afterwards we have 64 points and Liverpool 63. So we have significantly improved, we gained more points in less games and we reached the FA Cup final and the CL final as well. Last season we didn't play the late stages of the CL and our total was 66 points, we can get 70 if we win against Leicester and Aston Villa and still have the CL final left, for a new manager that had very limited time to work on anything other than trying to make us harder to break in defense that's for me personally a small miracle.

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