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Official Thomas Tuchel


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3 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Tuchel has done an amazing job with our defense and organization in general. He has made the team very difficult to score against, let alone beat. That being said we still have a fair amount of room for improvement when it comes to our attacking play. We have just completed a very tricky set of fixtures to start the season, with many games against rivals where we weren't clear favorites to win. I will be interested to see how we approach games in the next month or so when we are expected to win. That was often our downfall last season, even under Tuchel. Players seemed to look less motivated and we dropped a fair few points in those games. If we can find more consistency in these games we should be right there competing for top spot in the league. But we will need to show improvements in our attacking to win these games, and not approach them defensively.

For me this will all come down to the squad competition, if Tuchel can truly cultivate the hunger to start then I see no reason the attack cannot go up a level. This would require everybody fit so we can really see who can step up and be the best when everybody is fighting for a spot.

Also I think Ruben will come into his own he could be a real weapon for us this campaign I know Tuchel tried to play it off like they couldn't find him a loan but, I'm not so sure he didn't actually want him I think us keeping him was supposed to go under the radar to most rivals and pundits.

Ross Barkley another one who has struggled for consistency he has barely any chance of breaking into the team and yet if he does he's the kind of player that can supply the final ball and offer a goal threat from midfield which is surely lacking from this team.

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Tuchel had now a full pre-season so I hope that at some point we switch to a 4-2-3-1 in order to create more chances or 4-4-1-1 and counter-attack better. I don't think that we can win the league by playing to win 1:0 every game in the current system.

In the end if Sarri could finish top 3 with a 4-3-3 I don't see why we can't change the formation to a back 4 now that we have a more complete squad.

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14 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Tuchel had now a full pre-season so I hope that at some point we switch to a 4-2-3-1 in order to create more chances or 4-4-1-1 and counter-attack better. I don't think that we can win the league by playing to win 1:0 every game in the current system.

In the end if Sarri could finish top 3 with a 4-3-3 I don't see why we can't change the formation to a back 4 now that we have a more complete squad.

5 at the back can still feel attacking if the 2 wing backs are pushing forward at every opportunity. A lot depends on the personnel used in the system too. A midfield 3 of Kova/Jorginho/Kante is likely to be fairly defensive for example.

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2 hours ago, forbzy said:

5 at the back can still feel attacking if the 2 wing backs are pushing forward at every opportunity. A lot depends on the personnel used in the system too. A midfield 3 of Kova/Jorginho/Kante is likely to be fairly defensive for example.

Some of the players e.g. Alonso and Rudiger shine in this current system. But others not so much. We are trying to attack but it's not really working, in the most recent games we didn't create much but our tactic works if things go our way early on.

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10 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Don't think Kante was fit to last the game or even play on Saturday, that was the least effective game he had for a while, and it's been over looked because we were so poor across the field. Any manager could be excused to lose a game against City, which Chelsea manager hasn't since Pep came on board? The next 6-10 games will tell if we really improved from last season, beating the teams around and below us.

The 3 man midfield, it just doesn't work consistently with the players we have. Every now and then we see a good game with a 3 man midfield so the manager keeps trying it, but overall, the Jorginho, Kovacic and Kante combo doesn't work. It's Kovacic or Kante alongside Jorginho, not both.

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I'm torn because on the one hand no matter how you slice it we don't score enough goals regularly and that's the key word regularly. We do sometimes get a higher scoring game but, that as we know is not often.

Again the defensive record cannot be understated and I completely prescribe to Tuchels ideology that it is not the formation but, the system put in place and the way you play with the players that define the football you play. We could be one of the most attacking teams in the league with the right wbs and fwd 3.

The question is what is the right variation to draw out more attacking displays?

Question what's the difference between a lineup like this and switching to a back 4 to play 4231, 433 or a 4222. 

                         Mendy

          Azpil   Christensen   Rudi

  James   Jorghino   Kanté     Pulisic

             Havertz               Mount

                           Lukaku 

We essentially have 4 players that you could define as attackers, 4 you could call defenders and with Mount and Kai essentially 4 Midfielders. 3421 when we play one defender on the wing and the other a more attacking player like CHO or Pulisic we essentially bypass the necessity to be playing a back 4 whilst reaping all the benefits of having 4 natural defenders in the pitch at the same time.

I want to see CHO and Pulisic play as wbs more often against lower table teams because I think having that natural winger either side it allows for more attacking output. When we play 2 wbs or defenders on the wing we always look more likely to struggle to create.

James and Chillwell very rarely are required to play at the same time as they can both attack but, are much better at defending. James is a lot better at the moment at creating goal scoring chances imo with his crosses.

 TT did it a lot in pre season with CHO and Pulisic as wbs and its a shame CHO hasn't started the season as well as he looked in the pre and Christian getting injured has essentially put this strategy on the back burner.

 

 

Edited by LongtimerLurker
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8 minutes ago, Scott Harris said:

The 3 man midfield, it just doesn't work consistently with the players we have. Every now and then we see a good game with a 3 man midfield so the manager keeps trying it, but overall, the Jorginho, Kovacic and Kante combo doesn't work. It's Kovacic or Kante alongside Jorginho, not both.

It looks so good on paper and it dominated the lower teams in Europe in the Europa league and Arsenal barely laid a glove on us in that final. But, yeah due to the lack of goal threat and creativity that midfield 3 is just too defensive. The only way it works for me is in a 433 with 3 devastating forwards that can create for each other and will be ruthless in front of goal. 

Edited by LongtimerLurker
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1 hour ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I'm torn because on the one hand no matter how you slice it we don't score enough goals regularly and that's the key word regularly. We do sometimes get a higher scoring game but, that as we know is not often.

Again the defensive record cannot be understated and I completely prescribe to Tuchels ideology that it is not the formation but, the system put in place and the way you play with the players that define the football you play. We could be one of the most attacking teams in the league with the right wbs and fwd 3.

The question is what is the right variation to draw out more attacking displays?

Question what's the difference between a lineup like this and switching to a back 4 to play 4231, 433 or a 4222. 

                         Mendy

          Azpil   Christensen   Rudi

  James   Jorghino   Kanté     Pulisic

             Havertz               Mount

                           Lukaku 

We essentially have 4 players that you could define as attackers, 4 you could call defenders and with Mount and Kai essentially 4 Midfielders. 3421 when we play one defender on the wing and the other a more attacking player like CHO or Pulisic we essentially bypass the necessity to be playing a back 4 whilst reaping all the benefits of having 4 natural defenders in the pitch at the same time.

Our current tactic is great defensively and maybe we would lose too much if we switch to a back 4 formation but we can only know how it goes if it's put to the test.

                       Mendy

James Christensen T.Silva Chilwell

Pulisic   Kante   Jorginho   Mount

                     Havertz

                     Lukaku

Havertz is ideal right there behind Lukaku going into channels and making runs when Lukaku is being marked, this is where both shine but in this way you build the attack around the mind of Havertz and strenght of Lukaku. Mount as a left midfielder is what he naturally does and Pulisic wouldn't need to be doing so much defensive work as a right midfielder in comaprison to how much more would be needed from him if he was a wing-back.

This formation 4-4-1-1 in theory offers a very good counter-attack which is mainly a thing in a 4-4-2, this is the closest to it so we would be more potent. In this setup you would still get the crosses from James and Chilwell and a natural winger like CHO would be comfortable to replace both Mount or Pulisic and if Pulisic is injured then Ziyech and James will put in tons of balls to Lukaku and Mount on the far post but you would get better games from CHO as well when he plays. Werner is the natural sub for Havertz/Lukaku and Kovacic for Kante mainly but in practice you still get Kovacic-Jorginho a lot since Kante needs to be saved more often nowadays.

I don't see who wouldn't benefit from this formation, Alonso can even play as the LM if needed, maybe Rudiger would need to adapt to the 4 man backline and maybe Azpilicueta's pace would be tested but no formation is perfect. The point is that here you can defend with a lot of players when needed and you can get the full-backs involved in attack when needed as well but every player has the freedom for his best football to be seen.

In the current system our wing-backs are awkward part from Alonso and Tuchel has been trying to invent some creativity by putting players around Lukaku (Mount, Ziyech, Havertz) but IMO if you build the team around Havertz instead and give him more freedom you can automatically get more space for Mount that goes a bit wide and Lukaku would be less marked.

Why would we suddenly play a more counter-attacking football though? Because it just makes sense, Lukaku destroyed Serie A with Conte's counter-attacking and IMO Havertz with that extra space in the middle is a young version of Kaka himself, he won't make the wrong decision but then you can replace him with Werner and what do you get? A version of Lukaku + L.Martinez that won Inter the Serie A, less technical but with more pace. I mean the last time we won the league we gave Kante that midfield, while Matic was rigid in his DM duties now that role is done by Jorginho, meaning Kante would still have all the freedom he wants.

This is all in theory but I do believe that it's worth to try to sacrifice our defending setup for a faster attack, Mendy showed that he is a good keeper when our defense wasn't doing well enough, I don't think that the solution is to force CHO and Pulisic to change their whole profile and end up being some weaker versions of Moses, they're too much talented wingers so it would be a waste.

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7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Our current tactic is great defensively and maybe we would lose too much if we switch to a back 4 formation but we can only know how it goes if it's put to the test.

                       Mendy

James Christensen T.Silva Chilwell

Pulisic   Kante   Jorginho   Mount

                     Havertz

                     Lukaku

Havertz is ideal right there behind Lukaku going into channels and making runs when Lukaku is being marked, this is where both shine but in this way you build the attack around the mind of Havertz and strenght of Lukaku. Mount as a left midfielder is what he naturally does and Pulisic wouldn't need to be doing so much defensive work as a right midfielder in comaprison to how much more would be needed from him if he was a wing-back.

This formation 4-4-1-1 in theory offers a very good counter-attack which is mainly a thing in a 4-4-2, this is the closest to it so we would be more potent. In this setup you would still get the crosses from James and Chilwell and a natural winger like CHO would be comfortable to replace both Mount or Pulisic and if Pulisic is injured then Ziyech and James will put in tons of balls to Lukaku and Mount on the far post but you would get better games from CHO as well when he plays. Werner is the natural sub for Havertz/Lukaku and Kovacic for Kante mainly but in practice you still get Kovacic-Jorginho a lot since Kante needs to be saved more often nowadays.

I don't see who wouldn't benefit from this formation, Alonso can even play as the LM if needed, maybe Rudiger would need to adapt to the 4 man backline and maybe Azpilicueta's pace would be tested but no formation is perfect. The point is that here you can defend with a lot of players when needed and you can get the full-backs involved in attack when needed as well but every player has the freedom for his best football to be seen.

In the current system our wing-backs are awkward part from Alonso and Tuchel has been trying to invent some creativity by putting players around Lukaku (Mount, Ziyech, Havertz) but IMO if you build the team around Havertz instead and give him more freedom you can automatically get more space for Mount that goes a bit wide and Lukaku would be less marked.

Why would we suddenly play a more counter-attacking football though? Because it just makes sense, Lukaku destroyed Serie A with Conte's counter-attacking and IMO Havertz with that extra space in the middle is a young version of Kaka himself, he won't make the wrong decision but then you can replace him with Werner and what do you get? A version of Lukaku + L.Martinez that won Inter the Serie A, less technical but with more pace. I mean the last time we won the league we gave Kante that midfield, while Matic was rigid in his DM duties now that role is done by Jorginho, meaning Kante would still have all the freedom he wants.

This is all in theory but I do believe that it's worth to try to sacrifice our defending setup for a faster attack, Mendy showed that he is a good keeper when our defense wasn't doing well enough, I don't think that the solution is to force CHO and Pulisic to change their whole profile and end up being some weaker versions of Moses, they're too much talented wingers so it would be a waste.

I thought you are Jorginho fans. 

 

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I dont get the reluctance to play a back 4, when he has used it so frequently in the past. 

I know a few have question marks over the centre backs, but surely Thiago Silva, plus another, would be sufficient for alot of games we play. 

Something definitely not right with the attacking phase. Last season, it just looked we needed a goalscorer. Now we have one, we barely create any chances. Maybe the system is the issue in some games? 

 

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15 minutes ago, Argo said:

His insistence on giving Lukaku 90 minutes unconditionally is making Lampard's obsession with an out of sorts Kante feel like a mild bellyache.

I agree he shouldn't feel like Lukaku has to start every game. There are some games that may suit Werner or even Kai as a false 9. 

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15 minutes ago, Argo said:

His insistence on giving Lukaku 90 minutes unconditionally is making Lampard's obsession with an out of sorts Kante feel like a mild bellyache.

Last season and this season have switched around. Tuchel would have us struggling to open up smaller teams because of poor end product, but we were creating a ton of chances against the big teams. Now it's the other way around, and it's mostly because of Lukaku. I don't care how much Lukaku cost us, the simple fact is we are worse with him in the side in the biggest games. We are much more clinical against the weaker teams, which is great, but it's losing these big games that will stop us achieving anything this season.

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I don't fault him in anyway for this performance. A draw away to Juventus would be a good result for any team, they really defended well. The team is to blame for allowing them to score at the start of the second half. Shouldn't have fallen asleep. The good thing is that they were our last beg team in the difficult run of games we had so now we can build some momentum and pick some points off the smaller teams. 

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22 minutes ago, big blue said:

I dont get the reluctance to play a back 4, when he has used it so frequently in the past. 

I know a few have question marks over the centre backs, but surely Thiago Silva, plus another, would be sufficient for alot of games we play. 

Something definitely not right with the attacking phase. Last season, it just looked we needed a goalscorer. Now we have one, we barely create any chances. Maybe the system is the issue in some games? 

 

I don't remember overwhelming numbers of chances being created last season either in these sort of games under Tuchel. There were certainly some games where we went 1-0 up and then failed to take chances to put the games out of sight. But there plenty of games where we huffed and puffed without creating much. In general his system seems to work best when we get a goal up and force the other team to chase the game. In that respect we have already seen a few games this season where 1-0's have become 2 or 3 goal margins late on thanks to better finishing.  However my concern is that if we go a goal down, or come across teams set up to defend, we seem to run out of ideas. I am hoping Tuchel can figure that out. 

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I love Tuchel but, no one is above critique. I'll keep this short and sweet. We play 3421 I like the system but, it's not good enough at creating clear cut  chances for our team not our forwards our team big distinction. Maybe we don't have enough natural goalscorers throughout our squad who knows. 

Either way Klopp and Pep for the most part (I know Liverpool can be very open at times) have found a way to create a balance in their teams. They create large volumes of clear cut chances, whilst maintaining strong defences.

I know TT can do so as well, I'm just starting to think what's the harm of trying a back 4 we still have Silva for a season, Trevor is an option. If Rudi wants a big contract he better show he can work in a 2 same with Andreas at the end of the day we won't play 3atb forever.....or will we

Edit: Also I think a lot has changed since when TT came in, no one here is dense we understand this job is a hotseat it's win or be replaced. Is he so sure that 3 atb is better than anything he can come up with using a 4 man defense or is he too scared to try something new?

Edited by LongtimerLurker
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I hope he tries 4-3-3. We desperately need to get more attacking players onto the pitch.

I'd go to a flat back 4, then play a DM (I'd pick Chalobah) behind RLC and Barkley (who both offer some physicality, technique and a goal threat from midfield). Then up front I'd have Hudson-Odoi and Werner either side of Lukaku. 

I think even the neglected Lewis Baker would do a better job than Ziyech and Havertz right now ... 

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27 minutes ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I love Tuchel but, no one is above critique. I'll keep this short and sweet. We play 3421 I like the system but, it's not good enough at creating clear cut  chances for our team not our forwards our team big distinction. Maybe we don't have enough natural goalscorers throughout our squad who knows. 

Either way Klopp and Pep for the most part (I know Liverpool can be very open at times) have found a way to create a balance in their teams. They create large volumes of clear cut chances, whilst maintaing a strong defences.

I know TT can do so as well I'm just starting to think what's the harm of trying a back 4 we still have Silva for a season, Trevor is an option. If Rudi wants a big contract he better show he can work in a 2 same with Andreas at the end of the day we won't play 3atb forever.....or will we

The first thing I'll say is that everything looks worse when key players are lacking confidence and are ponderous on the ball. Many of them started the season that way so I hope he sticks to the system for these reasons:

If you play 4 at the back, Alonso, Azpi, Jorginho and Silva are automatically way more exposed and can become liabilities for their lack of pace. Pep and Klopp took years and got the players they wanted to make it work. Tuchel has gotten.... Lukaku. It's also why I think we went for Kounde, so that it would be a more viable option. 

Pep and Klopp also have better quality attackers in their starting 11s. In essence you would be moving a defensive player from our strongest area on the pitch and adding an attacker which is decidedly our weakest area. What's the point of adding another player who is just going to ignore runs and lack precision in the final third at the risk of conceding a lot more? If we had the players to mitigate the risk then by all means. 

We won the CL and are a point off the top of the log after having the toughest run of opening fixtures. Now is not the time to lose faith and I certainly would rather have the structural support to carry Jorginho, Azpi and Silva. 

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