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On 11/10/2021 at 00:24, Jangz said:

While we continue to do well it would be a lie to say I am not worried about our attacking phase… for us to win the league and be more consistent we need to have more solutions and an extra gear.. 

if this means a 4 at the back from time to time wouldn’t mind 

 

Attacking is pretty basic, you need to get the ball forward, you need to create and then score. 

Which of these phase that we struggle? The biggest key is player then system. System is there to help make player job easier but no matter how good your system is, you can't transformm Werner into Hazard or Jorginho into Fabregas

 

 

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9 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Attacking is pretty basic, you need to get the ball forward, you need to create and then score. 

Which of these phase that we struggle? The biggest key is player then system. System is there to help make player job easier but no matter how good your system is, you can't transformm Werner into Hazard or Jorginho into Fabregas

 

 

I don’t think that is joe professional football works. You also need to have enough players with an instruction to attack and a capability to do so.. 

To make an exaggerated point if you don’t have enough options  in advance positions no amount of good build up play solves for it.. my point is we don’t give enough appealing options to ball carriers ..

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Never let Tuchel make transfers. It´s his main weakness. With the crazy loan scheme, you just bring them all back every summer. Tuchel can watch the 30-40 loan players in summer training and pick the best three to become squad members. Much cheaper and efficient transfer policy. 🤪

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On 15/10/2021 at 15:57, Bob stark said:

Attacking is pretty basic, you need to get the ball forward, you need to create and then score. 

Which of these phase that we struggle? The biggest key is player then system. System is there to help make player job easier but no matter how good your system is, you can't transformm Werner into Hazard or Jorginho into Fabregas

Oh man how I wish we had Fab and Eden today

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Made couple of big calls such as playing 352 and start with Sarr, in the end it was justified. Like he said post game, Brentford was pretty quiet until the last 20, if we allowed them to have a go at us for 45 minutes, result could have been anything. Can't argue he's not giving player chances, never thought RLC, Barley and Sarr be playing in October. His biggest challenge will be figure out how to get the front 2 ( or 3) firing, the puzzle he's been trying to solve since day 1. Mind you, nobody has sorted that out since Conte's first season.

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2 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Made couple of big calls such as playing 352 and start with Sarr, in the end it was justified. Like he said post game, Brentford was pretty quiet until the last 20, if we allowed them to have a go at us for 45 minutes, result could have been anything. Can't argue he's not giving player chances, never thought RLC, Barley and Sarr be playing in October. His biggest challenge will be figure out how to get the front 2 ( or 3) firing, the puzzle he's been trying to solve since day 1. Mind you, nobody has sorted that out since Conte's first season.

I'm convinced we just need to play a front 3 with 2 of them dedicated to scoring and creating for the number 9 sounds simple but, at this level of football you need elite difference makers. 

Right now we're struggling to get the ball to Lukaku. His biggest chances this game came when Timo was involved, he even set Timo up for a goalscoring opportunity. 

Timo and Rom will work but, they are missing someone that can create multiple chances per game. Since at best they get 1-2 clear cut chances per game in this system on occasion 3 but, rarely more. 

Regardless of whether you play 352 or 343/3421 you need one more player dedicated to attack to really unlock the obvious top tier quality we have attacking wise in Timo and Rom who are our best attacking options.

The 3rd player needs to spot their runs and have the ability to execute the pass. This is the crucial thing. Alongside their own ability to finish chances since Timo and Rom can both create good goalscoring chances for teammates as well as score. 

It's not to say Timo and Rom should start every game especially together but, realistically these are are two players most likely to influence the scoreline in our favour. 

On paper this position suits every single one of our attackers/attacking midfielders in the squad. Mason, Kai, Hakim, Ruben, Christian, Callum, Ruben and even Ross. These players should all be capable of sowing the midfield to the attack. 

Ruben was the choice today and this is the 2nd variation we've seen of of the Timo/Rom attack. Since last time we played Kova, Ngolo and Jorginho. Who are all midfielders that have their own unique skills sets that make them perfect as a duo but, limiting as a trio when we only play two fwds.

Those 3 especially struggle to create enough chances when we play with 3 players ahead of them, it only makes sense when there's one less we look even worse creatively.

Ideally we want Pulisic, Mount, Ziyech, Callum and Kai specifically in this 3rd position because they will look to create or have that unpredictability which again and again has won us games. Ross and Ruben are more wildcards and whilst Ruben has great dribbling he often lacks the final ball.

Ross funny enough actually has a good final ball and I can see him taking advantage of the game time he receives.

It will be interesting to see how many different players Thomas tries in this 3rd spot. For me this will be the key for unlocking our attacking talent and potential, its not to same more than 1 or 2 of them shouldn't and won't feature at the same time.

However, they are all similar players in what they want to do right now we just need one of them to really step up and provide that spark to the team.

In the short term I could really see Mason doing well alongside Timo and Rom a front 3 we are yet to see. I also think a fit Christian Pulisic would be a monster alongside a confident Timo and a Lukaku who would be getting service if not from the majority of the team at least from the other 2 fwds.

Closing note I also should point out how important Alonso, James and Chilly are too. Wb is probably the most interesting position in the system since that is the epitome of total football in what they are tasked to do.

Sometimes they assist sometimes they score but they always have to defend and try to attack in anyway. Azpil from a more defensive perspective is good here but, at rcb we get all of the perks of what he can do in attack since we know he'll get forward anyway. But, also we get the added security of him in a back 3 and the sdded firepower of at least one more playerinfront of him who is going to be attack minded (James, Callum or Christian).

 

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2 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

Made couple of big calls such as playing 352 and start with Sarr, in the end it was justified. Like he said post game, Brentford was pretty quiet until the last 20, if we allowed them to have a go at us for 45 minutes, result could have been anything. Can't argue he's not giving player chances, never thought RLC, Barley and Sarr be playing in October. His biggest challenge will be figure out how to get the front 2 ( or 3) firing, the puzzle he's been trying to solve since day 1. Mind you, nobody has sorted that out since Conte's first season.

I'm convinced we just need to play a front 3 with 2 of them dedicated to scoring and creating for the number 9 sounds simple but, at this level of football you need elite difference makers. 

Right now we're struggling to get the ball to Lukaku. His biggest chances this game came when Timo was involved, he even set Timo up for a goalscoring opportunity. 

Timo and Rom will work but, they are missing someone that can create multiple chances per game. Since at best they get 1-2 clear cut chances per game in this system on occasion 3 but, rarely more. 

Regardless of whether you play 352 or 343/3421 you need one more player dedicated to attack to really unlock the obvious top tier quality we have attacking wise in Timo and Rom who are our best attacking options.

The 3rd player needs to spot their runs and have the ability to execute the pass. This is the crucial thing. Alongside their own ability to finish chances since Timo and Rom can both create good goalscoring chances for teammates as well as score. 

It's not to say Timo and Rom should start every game especially together but, realistically these are are two players most likely to influence the scoreline in our favour. 

On paper this position suits every single one of our attackers/attacking midfielders in the squad. Mason, Kai, Hakim, Ruben, Christian, Callum, Ruben and even Ross. These players should all be capable of sowing the midfield to the attack. 

Ruben was the choice today and this is the 2nd variation we've seen of of the Timo/Rom attack. Since last time we played Kova, Ngolo and Jorginho. Who are all midfielders that have their own unique skills sets that make them perfect as a duo but, limiting as a trio when we only play two fwds.

Those 3 especially struggle to create enough chances when we play with 3 players ahead of them, it only makes sense when there's one less we look even worse creatively.

Ideally we want Pulisic, Mount, Ziyech, Callum and Kai specifically in this 3rd position because they will look to create or have that unpredictability which again and again has won us games. Ross and Ruben are more wildcards and whilst Ruben has great dribbling he often lacks the final ball.

Ross funny enough actually has a good final ball and I can see him taking advantage of the game time he receives.

It will be interesting to see how many different players Thomas tries in this 3rd spot. For me this will be the key for unlocking our attacking talent and potential, its not to same more than 1 or 2 of them shouldn't and won't feature at the same time.

However, they are all similar players in what they want to do right now we just need one of them to really step up and provide that spark to the team.

In the short term I could really see Mason doing well alongside Timo and Rom a front 3 we are yet to see. I also think a fit Christian Pulisic would be a monster alongside a confident Timo and a Lukaku who would be getting service if not from the majority of the team at least from the other 2 fwds.

Closing note I also should point out how important Alonso, James and Chilly are too. Wb is probably the most interesting position in the system since that is the epitome of total football in what they are tasked to do.

Sometimes they assist sometimes they score but they always have to defend and try to attack in anyway. Azpil from a more defensive perspective is good here but, at rcb we get all of the perks of what he can do in attack since we know he'll get forward anyway. But, also we get the added security of him in a back 3 and the sdded firepower of at least one more playerinfront of him who is going to be attack minded (James, Callum or Christian).

 

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1 hour ago, LongtimerLurker said:

I'm convinced we just need to play a front 3 with 2 of them dedicated to scoring and creating for the number 9 sounds simple but, at this level of football you need elite difference makers. 

Right now we're struggling to get the ball to Lukaku. His biggest chances this game came when Timo was involved, he even set Timo up for a goalscoring opportunity. 

Timo and Rom will work but, they are missing someone that can create multiple chances per game. Since at best they get 1-2 clear cut chances per game in this system on occasion 3 but, rarely more. 

Regardless of whether you play 352 or 343/3421 you need one more player dedicated to attack to really unlock the obvious top tier quality we have attacking wise in Timo and Rom who are our best attacking options.

The 3rd player needs to spot their runs and have the ability to execute the pass. This is the crucial thing. Alongside their own ability to finish chances since Timo and Rom can both create good goalscoring chances for teammates as well as score. 

It's not to say Timo and Rom should start every game especially together but, realistically these are are two players most likely to influence the scoreline in our favour. 

On paper this position suits every single one of our attackers/attacking midfielders in the squad. Mason, Kai, Hakim, Ruben, Christian, Callum, Ruben and even Ross. These players should all be capable of sowing the midfield to the attack. 

Ruben was the choice today and this is the 2nd variation we've seen of of the Timo/Rom attack. Since last time we played Kova, Ngolo and Jorginho. Who are all midfielders that have their own unique skills sets that make them perfect as a duo but, limiting as a trio when we only play two fwds.

Those 3 especially struggle to create enough chances when we play with 3 players ahead of them, it only makes sense when there's one less we look even worse creatively.

Ideally we want Pulisic, Mount, Ziyech, Callum and Kai specifically in this 3rd position because they will look to create or have that unpredictability which again and again has won us games. Ross and Ruben are more wildcards and whilst Ruben has great dribbling he often lacks the final ball.

Ross funny enough actually has a good final ball and I can see him taking advantage of the game time he receives.

It will be interesting to see how many different players Thomas tries in this 3rd spot. For me this will be the key for unlocking our attacking talent and potential, its not to same more than 1 or 2 of them shouldn't and won't feature at the same time.

However, they are all similar players in what they want to do right now we just need one of them to really step up and provide that spark to the team.

In the short term I could really see Mason doing well alongside Timo and Rom a front 3 we are yet to see. I also think a fit Christian Pulisic would be a monster alongside a confident Timo and a Lukaku who would be getting service if not from the majority of the team at least from the other 2 fwds.

Closing note I also should point out how important Alonso, James and Chilly are too. Wb is probably the most interesting position in the system since that is the epitome of total football in what they are tasked to do.

Sometimes they assist sometimes they score but they always have to defend and try to attack in anyway. Azpil from a more defensive perspective is good here but, at rcb we get all of the perks of what he can do in attack since we know he'll get forward anyway. But, also we get the added security of him in a back 3 and the sdded firepower of at least one more playerinfront of him who is going to be attack minded (James, Callum or Christian).

 

I agree, we lack that Mesut Ozil/Iniesta type player that sees how the game unfolds faster

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2 hours ago, Deino said:

I agree, we lack that Mesut Ozil/Iniesta type player that sees how the game unfolds faster

But Deino what position will you play them.. ? We play either two upfront with Werner & Lukaku .. or 2 wide men with lukaku.

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1 hour ago, Jangz said:

But Deino what position will you play them.. ? We play either two upfront with Werner & Lukaku .. or 2 wide men with lukaku.

Depends on their overall characteristic tho, Xavi is a CM and Iniesta has always been a LCM/Inside forward-hybrid. Even Cesc can play the Jorginho role. So it doesn't matter as much which position they play but ideally they'd be the 3rd inside forward or the 3rd CM. 

Ziyech is supposed to be that person for us tbh but he's far too inconsistent. Mount is our closest bet right now. 

Edited by Deino
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You may not know but Kai Havertz was formerly playing as a 10 and play maker, he was then more or less transformed into a support striker but his biggest strength is his vision and passing ability and therefor is best when he has movement in front of him. The team would lose stability with a real 10 though, no matter who would play this position. I am with Tuchel, I don't believe that a bit more creativity would be worth the less stability.

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1 hour ago, FargoFargo said:

You may not know but Kai Havertz was formerly playing as a 10 and play maker, he was then more or less transformed into a support striker but his biggest strength is his vision and passing ability and therefor is best when he has movement in front of him. The team would lose stability with a real 10 though, no matter who would play this position. I am with Tuchel, I don't believe that a bit more creativity would be worth the less stability.

Sadly our managers don't build their team around Havertz.

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3 hours ago, FargoFargo said:

You may not know but Kai Havertz was formerly playing as a 10 and play maker, he was then more or less transformed into a support striker but his biggest strength is his vision and passing ability and therefor is best when he has movement in front of him. The team would lose stability with a real 10 though, no matter who would play this position. I am with Tuchel, I don't believe that a bit more creativity would be worth the less stability.

For us he's been at his best as a false nine or support striker. By a distance too.

And while he may have had great vision and passing in the Bundesliga where there is space just about everywhere he's shown very little of that here in England.

I had/have such high hopes for him. Especially after his performances post January last season and he was key in us winning the Champions League. But he's been very, very poor to start this season. In theory I think him playing off Lukaku should suit him perfectly but it's not excactly worked out so far.

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1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Sadly our managers don't build their team around Havertz.

You have to earn the trust of the coach before he will build a team around you. You can't build a team around a player who doesn't turn up as often as Havertz.

Don't get me wrong, on his day he is exceptional. When he really puts his mind to it, he is unplayable. But just like Ozil, he can go from hero to zero all too easily. I don't buy into this "he's being played out of position" stuff. Truly world class players can perform anywhere. You build a team around a player once he shows he can dominate matches from anywhere. Hazard could play on the right, on the left, through the middle, play deeper, and he would take teams apart and show his class wherever he played. Havertz has to show a lot more consistency to be the stand-out player we all want him to be.

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2 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Sadly our managers don't build their team around Havertz.

Havertz is too inconsistent at the moment. Had he burst onto the scene like Messi or any of the Ronaldos, then maybe managers would have confidence in building the team around him. 

4 hours ago, FargoFargo said:

You may not know but Kai Havertz was formerly playing as a 10 and play maker, he was then more or less transformed into a support striker but his biggest strength is his vision and passing ability and therefor is best when he has movement in front of him. The team would lose stability with a real 10 though, no matter who would play this position. I am with Tuchel, I don't believe that a bit more creativity would be worth the less stability.

He doesn't play like an Özil, he plays like a poor man's version of Thomas Muller right now. 

I have yet to see this brilliant passer from him but I have seen some flashes of world class brilliance from his movement.

 

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53 minutes ago, Nibs said:

You have to earn the trust of the coach before he will build a team around you. You can't build a team around a player who doesn't turn up as often as Havertz.

Don't get me wrong, on his day he is exceptional. When he really puts his mind to it, he is unplayable. But just like Ozil, he can go from hero to zero all too easily. I don't buy into this "he's being played out of position" stuff. Truly world class players can perform anywhere. You build a team around a player once he shows he can dominate matches from anywhere. Hazard could play on the right, on the left, through the middle, play deeper, and he would take teams apart and show his class wherever he played. Havertz has to show a lot more consistency to be the stand-out player we all want him to be.

I'm sorry but that's just simply not true. Thierry Henry arguably the greatest PL player of all time was bang average at best as a left winger, most world-class attacking fullbacks are playing fullback because they flopped as a winger (I remember Pep put Dani Alves on the wing for a one off tactical reason and he was every shade of sh*t).

Would Lampard and Drogba have given us the careers and output they did if we put them out on the wing?

Yes there's the odd rare exception of a player that could genuinely perform anywhere (Messi, Azpi, Gallas, Eto'o few of the outliers) but generally speaking footballers have specialist roles and not playing to them is completely counterproductive.

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57 minutes ago, Deino said:

Havertz is too inconsistent at the moment. Had he burst onto the scene like Messi or any of the Ronaldos, then maybe managers would have confidence in building the team around him. 

He doesn't play like an Özil, he plays like a poor man's version of Thomas Muller right now. 

I have yet to see this brilliant passer from him but I have seen some flashes of world class brilliance from his movement.

 

That's also due to the fact that he gets played in different positions a lot too. At Leverkusen he was mainly the AM at the middle of the pitch and his manager gave him the freedom to do what he does best and that's why we went to sign him.

OGS kept his job for this long because he bought Fernandes and simply put him in the middle of the pitch, it didn't matter what other stars he had in the team at all. And that player single-handedly prolonged that position that OGS has. Özil and Muller kept playing in the middle of the pitch, Kai gets shifted from right to left and our back 3 formation simply doesn't fit for our attackers that much.

1 shot on target against Brentfort, by the full-back and that won us the game. You can tell me whatever you want but that isn't sustainable, it's not going to work in every game. Also you say that he is too inconsistent but so is every other attacker at this point, so is Lukaku, so is Mount, so is Werner.

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17 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

That's also due to the fact that he gets played in different positions a lot too. At Leverkusen he was mainly the AM at the middle of the pitch and his manager gave him the freedom to do what he does best and that's why we went to sign him.

OGS kept his job for this long because he bought Fernandes and simply put him in the middle of the pitch, it didn't matter what other stars he had in the team at all. And that player single-handedly prolonged that position that OGS has. Özil and Muller kept playing in the middle of the pitch, Kai gets shifted from right to left and our back 3 formation simply doesn't fit for our attackers that much.

1 shot on target against Brentfort, by the full-back and that won us the game. You can tell me whatever you want but that isn't sustainable, it's not going to work in every game. Also you say that he is too inconsistent but so is every other attacker at this point, so is Lukaku, so is Mount, so is Werner.

Then we should sack Tuchel and bring in a new manager. Clearly Tuchel won't change his style of play this late in the game. 

Leverkusen were 5th that year and Utd's board are lenient as feck plus Bruno kept them relevant through penalties that season, that was even more unsustainable.

You add this to the fact that our board doesn't give managers time to complete projects. They demand excellence every year or get sacked,  so building a team around Havertz now is too late considering the major overhaul we need to do unless we got brutally spanked a la Conte 2016/17. 

Tell me, how a 433/4231 change now would immediately make our attackers score 10-0 without sacrificing our solidity? Lamps did it and failed, Sarri did it and he got us 3rd with peak Hazard in the team. 

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7 minutes ago, Deino said:

Then we should sack Tuchel and bring in a new manager. Clearly Tuchel won't change his style of play this late in the game. 

Leverkusen were 5th that year and Utd's board are lenient as feck plus Bruno kept them relevant through penalties that season, that was even more unsustainable.

You add this to the fact that our board doesn't give managers time to complete projects. They demand excellence every year or get sacked,  so building a team around Havertz now is too late considering the major overhaul we need to do unless we got brutally spanked a la Conte 2016/17. 

Tell me, how a 433/4231 change now would immediately make our attackers score 10-0 without sacrificing our solidity? Lamps did it and failed, Sarri did it and he got us 3rd with peak Hazard in the team. 

He won't keep his job either if he really believes that we can win every game 1:0 either, it takes a good manager to use a good attacker and Tuchel has a good attacking squad on paper.

Bruno came in January and in 14 PL appearances he had 8 goals and 7 assists. Second season 37 games 18 goals and 11 assists. Clearly it's not just about him taking penalties.

Lampard managed to do well in his first season we scored plenty of goals. Sarri too.

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8 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

He won't keep his job either if he really believes that we can win every game 1:0 either, it takes a good manager to use a good attacker and Tuchel has a good attacking squad on paper.

Bruno came in January and in 14 PL appearances he had 8 goals and 7 assists. Second season 37 games 18 goals and 11 assists. Clearly it's not just about him taking penalties.

Lampard managed to do well in his first season we scored plenty of goals. Sarri too.

Lampard sacrificed our solidity which was Deinos point.

And he definitly couldn't make it work with our current crop of attackers (bar Lukaku) either. We all thought it was a great window back then but when it's come to performances not one of the attackers we have bought have consistently delivered.

Perhaps it will become clear we need a real revamp of our attacking options. Right now it's looking that way but thing can obviously change in an instant. But Tuchel is anyhow just at the very start of his Chelsea chapter and have only signed one player. It will obviously take some time before he's built our attack the way he wants it to be.

 

 

 

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I've learned from Brentford game that Tuchel intends to continue with the 3 at the back formation no matter what. He had a great opportunity to try 4 at the back with Rudiger and Silva out. 

Also, the 5 in middle is just temporary until Mount and Havertz pick up some form. At the same time give a run of games to Werner and Lukaku to play together to see what they can offer.

Like everyone else I do believe there is a missing link between midfield and attack. I think this is due to the players Tuchel chooses with a flat 5 in the middle. 

Inter Milan with Conte played 5 in the middle too. The one in the middle is the defensive minded midfielder where as the ones each side of him are box to box to provide the support to attackers. 

Kante Jorginho Kovacic are all very defensive and long term it will not work. 

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