Just your standard VAR thread I didn't see one so made this, if there is one mods delete this.

Following on from last night's events I feel myself falling out of love with this country's refereeing and thereby to an extent the football itself. 

In a world where level is now offside it begs the question what are the future implications for the offside rule in football. With games decided by the finest margins why has VAR failed to live up to the hype.

We were told VAR would be used for clear and obvious errors. Not to mention the last time I checked the referee has the final say and can overrule any VAR decision. Yesterday he didn't even check the monitor, the linesman himself saw the decision as onside why would he not at least make the decision himself.

I refuse to be drawn into the debate in which VAR decisions benefit the older more 'traditionally better' teams but it is hard to deny Man U haven't benefited throughout the season.

What are people's thoughts about VAR?

Finally to address last night once more, I saw someone posted the rules about offside via the official rule book. One cannot be offside with a body part they cannot score with, so to declare a goal offside because of the area in which the arm and shoulder meets is ludicrous in no world is that a clear and obvious error. That is just corruption.

 

I usually stay safe from these kind of discussions since they seem so pointless given that the ruling always seem to go against common sense and implement weirdo stuff you can't think of yourself but I'd have loved Werner score a goal with that very armpit after the above situation - with the goal cancelled by the very same VAR because of playing with the hand. 

 

But for the sanity of everybody invoved they should just implement some sort of margin of error, let's say 10cm or whatever to pay tribute to the fact that it isn't as clear as they pretend it would be.

I wouldnt put the offsides in with the whole var debate tbh. Its the system they have been given implement offside which is greatly floored. 

They need to work out a system that allows players to be 'level', whether that is using thicker lines, taking the point of where they measure from somewhere else on the body, or something else. 

If a player looks onside from the naked eye, he should be classed as on, because they technology they use isnt 100% accurate. They record at 50fps, and if players moving quickly, especially in oppsite directions, such as the defender stepping up, and the forward running through, then the difference in between frames can be quite big, certainly in terms of the measuring stick they are using at the moment. 

Hard one to get the answer for really, because at some point it is always going to be marginal. 

Dont mind Var for other things though now, its grown on me, especially for penalty decisions. 

Just wish they could make it quicker, amd sirt the offsides out.

 

The insane thing about the Werner "offside" is that they drew the line from his arm. Complete disregard of the rules of football. You can be damn sure VAR would have ruled it out if he scored with his biceps yet they draw the line there?

VAR as a Technology is absolutely fine it’s the people behind it and how they interpret the rules that’s the problem. They have been very clever is blaming the technology by using media spin so the focus is off the referees. PL must have some good PR probably ex government.

24 minutes ago, Brutos said:

VAR as a Technology is absolutely fine it’s the people behind it and how they interpret the rules that’s the problem. They have been very clever is blaming the technology by using media spin so the focus is off the referees. PL must have some good PR probably ex government.

THIS. 

VAR itself is a good system but if there are complete idiots enforcing often times stupid rules the outcome will always be a mess.

They need to fix the rules and have competent people watching the game. 

What I love most about VAR is how you no longer celebrate when Chelsea score, because the goal might have been scored unfairly, so you wait patiently for several minutes for the experts to analyse it with their digital geometry sets and ensure an absolutely correct decision every time. Don't know how we managed without it.

Offside isn’t included in the clear & obvious part, it is always checked.

However, the rule now needs to be changed, if the attacker & defender are level at the waist then IMO that should be deemed onside.

The current situation is farcical.

VAR officiating offside basically rules out any goals that appeared not 100% onside, and they are happy to muck around with every single frame just to make it look offiside. Meanwhile, the penalty officiating wants to give all the advantages to the attackers,even if two players touched each other's fingernails. It's got to a point people like Owen calling out players for NOT diving, because that's how the game should be played, it's insane

Most irritating thing for me is offside due to an arm being judged to be offside.

You don't score with your hand or arm, before this I saw Bamford have a goal disallowed as by pointing where he wanted the ball, his arm wandered into offside.

A complete irrational balls-up by the FA!

Wasn't VAR bought in to help the refs? I didn't realise it was bought in to change the rules of the sport. Both the hand ball and offside rule has been altered for the sake of VAR. 

The problem for me with the decision last night was that the linesman called it onside yet they overruled his decision based on assumptions, I believe the benefit of doubt should sit with the on field decision during tough calls as the one last night.

Interestingly we had a goal ruled out for handball today which was arguably his shoulder. Now if VAR doesn't deem it to be a clear and obvious mistake they can't overule the decision. Therefore, the hand ball was given. How is this different to the offside that VAR overruled for Timo, clearly that wasn't clear and obvious so why did they overule it.

I find the rules confusing, I may be missing something here so fair play if someone can explain but from where I'm sitting there is no consistency.

Time to go Dutch

6 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Interestingly we had a goal ruled out for handball today which was arguably his shoulder. Now if VAR doesn't deem it to be a clear and obvious mistake they can't overule the decision. Therefore, the hand ball was given. How is this different to the offside that VAR overruled for Timo, clearly that wasn't clear and obvious so why did they overule it.

I find the rules confusing, I may be missing something here so fair play if someone can explain but from where I'm sitting there is no consistency.

This is why its so farcical, for all the talk about it getting rid of errors many of these decisions are still subjective and at the whim of a referee. as you say, Timo had a goal disallowed v Liverpool as his arm was offside, yet we had a goal disallowed today as the exact same part of Havertz`s arm was used to control the ball. Its just so open to abuse.

Thursday night you have a goal ruled out because a players upper arm, considered a part of the body you can use to score a goal with, was deemed to be in an offside position. 

Monday a player has a goal ruled out for using the same part of his body to control the ball. 

So either the Werner goal was wrongly ruled out for offside or Havertz goal was wrongly ruled out for handball. 

But the problem is, no one knows for sure which decision is correct. 

17 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Thursday night you have a goal ruled out because a players upper arm, considered a part of the body you can use to score a goal with, was deemed to be in an offside position. 

Monday a player has a goal ruled out for using the same part of his body to control the ball. 

So either the Werner goal was wrongly ruled out for offside or Havertz goal was wrongly ruled out for handball. 

But the problem is, no one knows for sure which decision is correct. 

And no-one in any authority cares about which decision is correct.  The whole referee/VAR thing is populated with incompetent arses mostly.  I find it interesting that there is a great deal of comment when a referee has what everyone considers to be a good game, purely because of the rarity of that happening.

This isn't a "they're all out to get us, Mr Mainwaring" CFC only thing.  every side gets sh*te or clearly wrong decisions for and against them,  

I have long been an advocate for the same VAR set up as Rugby has, and for all referees to be miked up at all times.  Then they would have to explain the decisions they make, which I think would them possibly think a bit more sensibly.   Or maybe not.

1 hour ago, yorkleyblue said:

I have long been an advocate for the same VAR set up as Rugby has, and for all referees to be miked up at all times.  Then they would have to explain the decisions they make, which I think would them possibly think a bit more sensibly.   Or maybe not.

David Ornstein, formally BBC chief sports reporter now working for The Athletic, has recently said that some refs would actually welcome the opputunity to explain their decisions publically and that Martin Oliver in particular wanted to do so on one specific occassion (I don't know which) but was told he wasn't allowed to. 

The PGMOL seems to be actively against the idea of more transparency about the decision making process of the officials. 

There's going to need to be an overhaul of either the way VAR is used or the decisions (or at least the way they're enforced/interperated) it's used to rule on because increasingly fans, pundits and coaches are speaking out about the way it's sucking the enjoyment out of the game. 

10 hours ago, LongtimerLurker said:

Interestingly we had a goal ruled out for handball today which was arguably his shoulder. Now if VAR doesn't deem it to be a clear and obvious mistake they can't overule the decision. Therefore, the hand ball was given. How is this different to the offside that VAR overruled for Timo, clearly that wasn't clear and obvious so why did they overule it.

I find the rules confusing, I may be missing something here so fair play if someone can explain but from where I'm sitting there is no consistency.

The 'clear and obvious mistake' doesn't apply to offsides, where the refs consider it to be objectively on or offside (despite the fact that the technology is not accurate enough to judge offside down to the nearest millimetre, as the refs are aware). Linesmen are told not to flag and to let Var decide in the event of a goal, so there is not really a decision to overturn).

Handball is reffed differently. Refs can judge a handball, then Var reviews it, but if it's not a clear and obvious error, the original decision is not overturned. There is a strong argument for treating such marginal handballs the same way as offsides: let the handball go and check it later if necessary.

I would argue the images we've seen of both the Werner offside and the Havertz handball were too blurry to make an accurate call. Having arbitrary T-shirt line in the middle of the bicep is just bonkers, anyway.

The offsides is the one bothering me the most. I think the letter of the law has to change in the age of technology to represent the intent of the law.

The naked eye can't see strides or sleeves. feet move to fast to know whose foot is in front of the other at any given time. Get a guy reaching for a tackle, and he's objectively half a meter behind the other player, but his shoelace may hold the other player on... or off... it's ridiculous.

I think it should be like sprinters. When you want to draw an offsides line, draw use the sternum. I saw someone else say the waist... that's fine, that's the same idea... if you and I are in a race, we basically judge shoulder to shoulder who is winning, not whose feet or sleeve or hair is in front. 

That's the way the game has been officiated for 200 years. by looking at the Torso.

They keep trying to take the human element out of the game. They try to standardize it, but then they leave out common sense. I'm more pissed off about Werner's goal being disallowed than Havertz. 

I've said this for 20 years now with regards to replay and the "clear and obvious" error. Put a clock on it. You have 20 seconds to make a decision. If it takes longer than 20 seconds, it's not clear and obvious... play on... Replay was never intended to judge the small margins... just the big errors.

If I’m honest I don’t see VAR ever being compatible with football. You can sort out the offside rule or the handball rule but while VAR is about we’ll never be able to properly celebrate a goal without having it in our minds that it could get chalked off. I also follow my local team and it’s so good being able to watch a game and fully celebrate a goal, unfortunately that’s been taken away from us 

David Coote was giving Everton everything last night and I seriously doubt he would've given that Penalty had there not been VAR as he knew it was a stonewall pen.

His handball call was hugely dubious too

9 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Thursday night you have a goal ruled out because a players upper arm, considered a part of the body you can use to score a goal with, was deemed to be in an offside position. 

Monday a player has a goal ruled out for using the same part of his body to control the ball. 

So either the Werner goal was wrongly ruled out for offside or Havertz goal was wrongly ruled out for handball. 

But the problem is, no one knows for sure which decision is correct. 

I do, and neither of them were correct.

If we are going by the rules, then both goals should have stood. The angle they used to judge if Werner was offside was wrong, there was a much better angle they could have used that shows he was onside. Havertz goal should have stood because he played the ball with the part of the arm that is allowed, the same part of the arm Werner was given offside for.

One of the things I have always disliked about VAR is the clear and obvious part of it. I have hated it since the beginning, because for me, most replays show clearly if the ref got it right or wrong anyway. Everybody knows that Havertz goal was clean after looking at the replay, so what part about it wasn't clear and obvious? Also, the clear and obvious rule isn't used for offside, which seems odd seeing as the clear and obvious rule would work a lot better for offside decsions.

VAR is a system that really shouldn't be hard to implement. The problem is that we have refs that view the rules of the game very diffently, so we end up no consistency with the decision making. It's become such a mess that the rules of the game are being changed to help with VAR decisions, which seems absurd too me seeing as the VAR was supposed to be bought in to help the refs clear up anything they missed. VAR is actually a very simple system that Football has somehow found a way to mess up. With the way it is currently being used, they may as well bin it. 

Edited March 9, 20214 yr by Scott Harris