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West Ham v Chelsea (PL) Sat 24th Apr 2021 17:30 GMT


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14 hours ago, axman2526 said:

Terrible call from the VAR ref to refer it, even worse from the actual ref to give it.

Standard of english refs is appalling bad.

The problem is that so many pundits, players , managers and above all supporters actually haven’t a clue what the laws actually say-or indeed FIFAs directives as to how they should be interpreted 

Lets look at Law 12

First off when is it a foul

 

Direct free kick

A direct free kick is awarded if a player commits any of the following offences against an opponent in a manner considered by the referee to be careless, reckless or using excessive force:
 

  • charges
  • jumps at
  • kicks or attempts to kick
  • pushes
  • strikes or attempts to strike (including head-butt)
  • tackles or challenges
  • trips or attempts to trip


If an offence involves contact it is penalised by a direct free kick or penalty kick.
 

  • Careless is when a player shows a lack of attention or consideration when making a challenge or acts without precaution. No disciplinary sanction is needed
     
  • Reckless is when a player acts with disregard to the danger to, or consequences for, an opponent and must be cautioned
     
  • Using excessive force is when a player exceeds the necessary use of force and endangers the safety of an opponent and must be sent off

 

No where in there is either the word deliberate or intentional .

 

Next did he kick Chillwell ? Well yep we all saw that.
 

Lastly and this is the subjective bit in trying to determine if it was careless, reckless or did he put too much force into trying to clear the ball and by putting so much force into the attempted clearance did he endanger the opponent.

Prior to VAR  a fee kick probably wouldn’t have been given but unfortunately VAR is unforgiving and the sort of incidents like this get a second, third or however many looks at and at the end of the day this is what VAR leads to. It’s not poor refs it’s then applying poor laws.

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It just didn't look right to me, the truth is probably that it was his natural way to kicking and landing his foot and it was coincidence that it would end up perfectly catching Chilwell like that.

But from the starting point as he was looking down at the ball and had Chilwell in his peripheral vision, it is entirely possible for him to plan that, he knew Chilwell was there 100% and made no effort to adjust to his presence. But whether it was intentional or not can't be proved.

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15 hours ago, Ernie_blue said:

How the hell can you pull out when your kicking a football? Ffs

The funny part for me was that Moyes made reference to if that was a sending of then they, WHU, should have had a second player sent  off.

Vastly different based on the laws but hey if he thinks it should have been a red I guess the FA would be more than happy to charge the player 

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Are we still going on about the red card? Following Terraloons post, for me is careless, not reckless nor excessive force, he was clearing the ball. But, in any case, this game and result was fair and the red card did not influence the result. There were about 10 minutes left, we had controlled the game throughout the entire match not letting them have a clear chance in 90 minutes, why are we still discussing the red card giving it more relevance that it really had in the game?

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6 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

It just didn't look right to me, the truth is probably that it was his natural way to kicking and landing his foot and it was coincidence that it would end up perfectly catching Chilwell like that.

But from the starting point as he was looking down at the ball and had Chilwell in his peripheral vision, it is entirely possible for him to plan that, he knew Chilwell was there 100% and made no effort to adjust to his presence. But whether it was intentional or not can't be proved.

Not even something that needs to be taken into consideration 

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Every time I look at it I get a different opinion, when I visualise myself being Chilwell it feels like he invited himself to danger a bit.

Balbuena was already shaping up to hit the ball and Chilwell instead of throwing out a leg to block the ball, he closed the distance instead.
Either it was some form of lazy pretend defending or he was ball watching, just goes to show it's bloody hard to do the VAR job even if you can watch it again.

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5 minutes ago, terraloon said:

Not even something that needs to be taken into consideration 

I don't think it should be because you can't read a mind via video but no doubt referees will be taking that into account. If you were to watch a replay and follow a player's eyes or facial expression, it will no doubt be a factor.

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Sonic.

VAR is a terrible terrible addition to football whereas goal line technology is a plus and that’s because it deals with facts rather than an opinion 

Slowing incidents down, showing from different angles only adds to the confusion but it’s what so many wanted because they believed it would cut out errors and yes to a degree it has but so so many of the laws are based on an opinion and as we know in life there’s so many opinions about so many things

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18 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

Every time I look at it I get a different opinion, when I visualise myself being Chilwell it feels like he invited himself to danger a bit.

Balbuena was already shaping up to hit the ball and Chilwell instead of throwing out a leg to block the ball, he closed the distance instead.
Either it was some form of lazy pretend defending or he was ball watching, just goes to show it's bloody hard to do the VAR job even if you can watch it again.

Some years ago I had a very serious car crash which resulted me being off work for close to a year.The driver of the other car was way over the limit.

When it came to court in respect of my claim to damages the opposition QC tried to argue the final claim should be reduced by 20% because had I not been there then I wouldn’t have been injured so his argument was that I had to bear part of the responsibility for my injuries.

The judge told them to do one!

Edited by terraloon
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2 minutes ago, terraloon said:

Some years ago I had a very serious car crash which resulted me being off work for close to a year.The driver of the other car was way over the limit.

When it came to court in respect of my claim to damages the opposition QC tried to argue the final claim should be reduced by 20% because had I not been there then I wouldn’t have been injured so I had to bear par5 of the responsibility for my injuries.

The judge told them to do one!

I'm glad you got justice on that one. These incidents will always continue to be contentious. But if we were to make sure we always had opponents safety in mind there would be no 50/50 tackles. I mean when Cahill smashed Ryan Mason's head in and ended his career, was that not technically a red card?

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25 minutes ago, sonic90 said:

I'm glad you got justice on that one. These incidents will always continue to be contentious. But if we were to make sure we always had opponents safety in mind there would be no 50/50 tackles. I mean when Cahill smashed Ryan Mason's head in and ended his career, was that not technically a red card?

I was at that game and it was a clash of heads with both attempting to play the ball at a set piece
 

The ref had one look at this, VAR wasn’t in use back then, so no second look . Had it been I am not sure it would have been more than a yellow if at all anything but again it’s based on the refs opinion as to the way Cahill acted in terms of was he reckless etc etc

 

Edited by terraloon
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All the pundits and "experts" seem to be of the same opinion as many of us, that in no way was it a red or even a yellow card offence. Many are joking that you can't even kick a ball now without the fear of getting sent off!

Without want to be disrespectful to anyone, if folk think that is worthy of a red card, they really can;t have played football at a competitive level as if they had, they'd realise how easy it is for that to happen and how players will start getting sent off every game. Any time a player kicks the ball, but happens to catch an opponent with the momentum will get sent off and it will make a mockery of the game (as if we need further mockery with VAR already doing a good of of it!)

Perhaps it was the fact Chilwell turned so the follow through was on his calf? If it had been the bottom of his boot, would folk have the same opinion?

If a Chelsea player sees red for a challenge like that I will be f**king livid!

 

Edited by Nibs
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One of the crimes of last season has been corrected. It was embarrassing that we let West Ham do the double over us in 2019-20 - we put things right with a double of our own this time around. Six very crucial points given where both clubs sit in the table.

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2 hours ago, Nibs said:

All the pundits and "experts" seem to be of the same opinion as many of us, that in no way was it a red or even a yellow card offence. Many are joking that you can't even kick a ball now without the fear of getting sent off!

Without want to be disrespectful to anyone, if folk think that is worthy of a red card, they really can;t have played football at a competitive level as if they had, they'd realise how easy it is for that to happen and how players will start getting sent off every game. Any time a player kicks the ball, but happens to catch an opponent with the momentum will get sent off and it will make a mockery of the game (as if we need further mockery with VAR already doing a good of of it!)

Perhaps it was the fact Chilwell turned so the follow through was on his calf? If it had been the bottom of his boot, would folk have the same opinion?

If a Chelsea player sees red for a challenge like that I will be f**king livid!

 

ALL of the pundits and experts (former professionals) are NOT of this opinion. Played competitive football most of my life (admittedly at a pretty low level) and I've never had anyone follow through on me like this, not have I followed through like this on anyone.

In any case, this is a subjective judgement. One objective way to assess this (if we really care enough 😂) is to see how often players follow through like this... how many similar incidents can you recollect (would love to see a GIF of the Rudiger one)? Do they occur more often than Man U get penalties? If not, perhaps this really isn't such a high frequency event and is completely avoidable.

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5 hours ago, terraloon said:

The funny part for me was that Moyes made reference to if that was a sending of then they, WHU, should have had a second player sent  off.

Vastly different based on the laws but hey if he thinks it should have been a red I guess the FA would be more than happy to charge the player 

The even funnier part part is that Moyes actually thinks that the sending off effected the outcome of the game ffs :slap_face:

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3 hours ago, Nibs said:

All the pundits and "experts" seem to be of the same opinion as many of us, that in no way was it a red or even a yellow card offence. Many are joking that you can't even kick a ball now without the fear of getting sent off!

Without want to be disrespectful to anyone, if folk think that is worthy of a red card, they really can;t have played football at a competitive level as if they had, they'd realise how easy it is for that to happen and how players will start getting sent off every game. Any time a player kicks the ball, but happens to catch an opponent with the momentum will get sent off and it will make a mockery of the game (as if we need further mockery with VAR already doing a good of of it!)

Perhaps it was the fact Chilwell turned so the follow through was on his calf? If it had been the bottom of his boot, would folk have the same opinion?

If a Chelsea player sees red for a challenge like that I will be f**king livid!

 

About opinions Nibs, and with due respect I played competitive football for many years and IMHO I believe he knew what he was doing there and anyone who has played competitive football probably knows. 
There are times that you leave that bit extra on the follow through, extend your leg a fraction and maybe redirect slightly. The purpose would be to catch the player letting him know he’s in a game, a bit of intimidation. It’s a split second thing with no intention to serious injury, anyone doing that is just a c**t ie. Roy Keane. 
I’ve done it and had it done to me. It’s a part of the game which generally ends up with a few verbals. Yesterday’s tackle ended up looking worst because the way Chillwell held back. I didn’t think it would be red but the ref thought it was dangerous and in his mind he was justified in sending off.

As for the so called pundits who say that there was no intention they are bull sh*tting and being PC in their assessment, difficult to call out intention.   Any of them saying that they never left a bit on a follow through would be a f**king liar. In my experience ex pros were always the worst for.

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3 hours ago, Nibs said:

All the pundits and "experts" seem to be of the same opinion as many of us, that in no way was it a red or even a yellow card offence. Many are joking that you can't even kick a ball now without the fear of getting sent off!

Without want to be disrespectful to anyone, if folk think that is worthy of a red card, they really can;t have played football at a competitive level as if they had, they'd realise how easy it is for that to happen and how players will start getting sent off every game. Any time a player kicks the ball, but happens to catch an opponent with the momentum will get sent off and it will make a mockery of the game (as if we need further mockery with VAR already doing a good of of it!)

Perhaps it was the fact Chilwell turned so the follow through was on his calf? If it had been the bottom of his boot, would folk have the same opinion?

If a Chelsea player sees red for a challenge like that I will be f**king livid!

 

Yesterday when Callum Wilson had his goal chalked off for handball both the commentators, Joe Cole&  Peter Crouch agreed to a man that next season the goal would have stood. When they said that I thought that’s not the change to the laws as I understand it so when Peter Walton corrected  them I thought yet again these ex players haven’t got a clue what the laws actually are.

That is further emphasised when time after time they keep saying it wasn’t intentional as to somehow justify matters.
 

As an ex PL ref said to me if it’s happened it’s happened meant to do it or not it happened 

 

Edited by terraloon
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5 hours ago, goose said:

About opinions Nibs, and with due respect I played competitive football for many years and IMHO I believe he knew what he was doing there and anyone who has played competitive football probably knows. 
There are times that you leave that bit extra on the follow through, extend your leg a fraction and maybe redirect slightly. The purpose would be to catch the player letting him know he’s in a game, a bit of intimidation. It’s a split second thing with no intention to serious injury, anyone doing that is just a c**t ie. Roy Keane. 
I’ve done it and had it done to me. It’s a part of the game which generally ends up with a few verbals. Yesterday’s tackle ended up looking worst because the way Chillwell held back. I didn’t think it would be red but the ref thought it was dangerous and in his mind he was justified in sending off.

As for the so called pundits who say that there was no intention they are bull sh*tting and being PC in their assessment, difficult to call out intention.   Any of them saying that they never left a bit on a follow through would be a f**king liar. In my experience ex pros were always the worst for.

Yellow is fine but red is too much. I don't know whether there was really bad intent but Balbuena left leg was skidding forward which cause him to put weight on his right leg to land. 

 

Edited by Bob stark
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6 hours ago, goose said:

About opinions Nibs, and with due respect I played competitive football for many years and IMHO I believe he knew what he was doing there and anyone who has played competitive football probably knows. 
There are times that you leave that bit extra on the follow through, extend your leg a fraction and maybe redirect slightly. The purpose would be to catch the player letting him know he’s in a game, a bit of intimidation. It’s a split second thing with no intention to serious injury, anyone doing that is just a c**t ie. Roy Keane. 
I’ve done it and had it done to me. It’s a part of the game which generally ends up with a few verbals. Yesterday’s tackle ended up looking worst because the way Chillwell held back. I didn’t think it would be red but the ref thought it was dangerous and in his mind he was justified in sending off.

As for the so called pundits who say that there was no intention they are bull sh*tting and being PC in their assessment, difficult to call out intention.   Any of them saying that they never left a bit on a follow through would be a f**king liar. In my experience ex pros were always the worst for.

I think it's also possible that Balbuena just made a mistake, not every foul means real intention to harm even if it's a bad foul. You probably also had situations where you were only focused on the ball and not on the player coming, if both of you did that then the chances of a collision would increase and many times legs connect and nothing serious happens but when it does it's just reckless behavior but it doesn't need to be a Roy Kean type of thing going on it just happens.

This was his first red card in his career or at least in the Premier League, 3rd season ongoing and 5 yellow cards in total for 3 years so he doesn't seem like the type, in comparison Christensen has more cards in the last 3 seasons and he's pretty soft...

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11 hours ago, Nibs said:

All the pundits and "experts" seem to be of the same opinion as many of us, that in no way was it a red or even a yellow card offence. Many are joking that you can't even kick a ball now without the fear of getting sent off!

Without want to be disrespectful to anyone, if folk think that is worthy of a red card, they really can;t have played football at a competitive level as if they had, they'd realise how easy it is for that to happen and how players will start getting sent off every game. Any time a player kicks the ball, but happens to catch an opponent with the momentum will get sent off and it will make a mockery of the game (as if we need further mockery with VAR already doing a good of of it!)

Perhaps it was the fact Chilwell turned so the follow through was on his calf? If it had been the bottom of his boot, would folk have the same opinion?

If a Chelsea player sees red for a challenge like that I will be f**king livid!

 

To me it looked like Chilwell was bravely trying to get a challenge in and block the clearance. He was unfortunate to be hit by the follow through of the kicking leg but that is a risk you take when you try to block a clearance. It wasn't even a foul in my opinion. There was almost a carbon copy of the incident later on when Rudi got in the way of Coufal's block and some contact was made then too. If you could reliably draw a red this way I imagine every player will be throwing themselves at clearances going forward hoping for contact. Ludicrous. That being said I didn't see any evidence that our players tried to con the ref in any way. Chilwell definitely got a whack there and that would have hurt. Any anger from Hammers should be entirely at the feet of the refs and VAR.  

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5 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Yellow is fine but red is too much. I don't know whether there was really bad intent but Balbuena left leg was skidding forward which cause him to put weight on his right leg to land. 

 

No a yellow isn't fine. The rules of the game state that if the ref thinks that the result of the action (in this case studs high up the leg) puts the player in danger, then it is punished by a red card. 

Edited by nonotnowjim
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14 hours ago, Nibs said:

All the pundits and "experts" seem to be of the same opinion as many of us, that in no way was it a red or even a yellow card offence.

 

It shows how little the pundits know about the rules of the game then!

Anyone is entitled to have an opinion on the rules all they like. We all know the Opinions/arseholes saying etc. Having a view on the rules is one thing...

... however the ref in this instance followed the rules as they currently exist, and to say the ref was harsh shows a lack of understanding of the guidelines, which stipulate that a red card is the correct punishment.

Those that disagree with the sending off, think it was "soft", pros and pundits who don't think it even merited a yellow, or any other person that has an opinion on how the rule,  should stop complaining and use those efforts to lobby the ruling bodies to change the rules. But they should be clear that the ref got it spot on as per the rules of the game that he is there to implement.

 

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