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Chelsea v Arsenal (PL) Wed 12th May 2021 20:15 GMT


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1 minute ago, Gol15 said:

Lampard tried without him and we all saw what happened. Jorginho was vital for our CL run this season in which we beat some of the biggest teams out there.

That is the beauty of this forum that we all have different opinions and see things differently. I honestly do not see anything positive about Jorginho's play and I would be interested if you could point out some strong traits of the player.

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2 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

Lampard tried without him and we all saw what happened. Jorginho was vital for our CL run this season in which we beat some of the biggest teams out there.

Jorginho is a very good player and he is vital in many games. Today he just had a bad today and cost his team.  He knows he made a mistake and I'm sure he beats himself up for that.

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32 minutes ago, forbzy said:

Yes. I hope United beat Liverpool tomorrow but I don't be surprised if they lose that one too.

Apparently Solskjaer said he would rather see Leicester in top 4 than Liverpool.  But Liverpool is quite capable of beating Man U, and I think they will.

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7 minutes ago, just said:

He was Petworth, but Jorginho should have seen that. He made the pass without looking

99.99% Jorginho's fault, but it's no coincidence that Kepa is the keeper caught out by it, did he need to go after the ball after scrambling back heroically to save it ? should of stayed on his line after that.

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Just now, Stas1 said:

That is the beauty of this forum that we all have different opinions and see things differently. I honestly do not see anything positive about Jorginho's play and I would be interested if you could point out some strong traits of the player.

There was a time where I was naive and thought that if I explain my perspective and show a whole bunch of different angles and things that people would be open to see a different view about a player but that never really worked out well, I learned that people tend to hold their view regardless of what is being said.

So I don't even want to go there, I'm just pointing out that we tried to play without the type of a player like Jorginho already this season, and it didn't work out. You can argue that there are better players out there but if Jorginho was really that average he wouldn't last for 3 full seasons here nor would he be our vice-captain nor would we ever finish top 4 nor would we ever reach the CL final...

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Gol15 said:

Jorginho has been doing his role for 3 seasons, in all of those previous ones we finished in top 4 and are very close to do it for the 3rd time now. Sarri changed the way we played because he had Jorginho and we won Europa League and this season we are in the CL final with Jorginho being a vital part of our team. Pep wanted to sign Jorginho and he has been winning titles so he probably knows that he could do it with Jorginho, Italy haven't lost in a long time with Jorginho in the starting lineup. We couldn't really challenge for the title the season before Jorginho came, we finished 5th so there are many more factors involved than just 1 player that fans dislike because Sarri that bought him said that Juventus is a bigger team...

Cup games are a world of difference from League games. In cup games, you are very rarely playing against ultra defensive teams, especially in Europe. Even Atletico Madrid didn't play ultra defensive against us, and that is something they have a reputation of doing under Simeone. But in the league, we will always come up short with him as a regular because there are certain types of teams he will never be suited to playing against, today was the perfect example of that. Coaches in league football also have a better idea of how to approach games compared to cup competitions. They watch these teams every week, so they have a good idea what their strengths and weaknesses are. Coaches can't do that as much in the cup competitions because you don't see enough of the opposition to fully understand them.

I'm not saying he is useless to us, because evidently he is a big reason why we have made it to 2 cup finals, but he is not a player we should be playing in all situations, he shouldn't be the untouchable that Tuchel has turned him into. I wasn't even against him starting today, but once it was evident that Arsenal were switching to ultra defensive, that was the moment he needed to come off. He isn't a Mount or Kante, 2 players capable of playing against any style of football you throw at them, same goes for other midfielders we have had in the past like Lampard, Essien and Ballack. These types of midfielders are / were gifted enough to play against any tactics you could throw at them, Jorginho isn't. 

Comparing the season we finished 5th without him is a bit of reach too. We had so many weaknesses in that squad, especially in midfield. Jorginho wouldn't have suddenly turned us into a top 4 or title challenging team if you swapped one of our midfielders for him.

Edited by Scott Harris
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30 minutes ago, Gol15 said:

There was a time where I was naive and thought that if I explain my perspective and show a whole bunch of different angles and things that people would be open to see a different view about a player but that never really worked out well, I learned that people tend to hold their view regardless of what is being said.

So I don't even want to go there, I'm just pointing out that we tried to play without the type of a player like Jorginho already this season, and it didn't work out. You can argue that there are better players out there but if Jorginho was really that average he wouldn't last for 3 full seasons here nor would he be our vice-captain nor would we ever finish top 4 nor would we ever reach the CL final...

Jorginho completed on average 85.0% of his 749 completed passes under Lampard, and 59 of those passes were progressive passes, which are defined as a pass that travels 10+ yards towards the opponent’s goal. Jorginho averaged 3.47 progressive passes per game. He is the master of the sideways-backward passing bollox that stops our forward momentum and makes us dull as f**k. But we agree to disagree.

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1 hour ago, charierre said:

Gol remember before the match I commented on you saying it’s not a must win game. This scenario is exactly why I did. The moment you start making unnecessary changes like your keeper along with six others it sends out a message this game isn’t as important. It shouldn’t do as all are professional players but you see it time and again, a drop in intensity. This result was on the horizon, we outthought ourselves and now have made the job far more difficult. Small details.

You did call this and got it spot on.

In the end we missed Rudiger, Kante and Werner too much.

We wanted them rested and fresh. Them and Mendy missing out for whatever reason the rest took as a sign to be well below par.

I mean at least WBA played well against us. Arsenal were poor, they did nothing but we made it so that was enough to beat us.

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37 minutes ago, coco said:

99.99% Jorginho's fault, but it's no coincidence that Kepa is the keeper caught out by it, did he need to go after the ball after scrambling back heroically to save it ? should of stayed on his line after that.

Looking at it again this how I see it.  Kepa is making himself available for a simple back pass from Zouma and we clear it. Zouma has a brain fart and passes it to Jorginho who is immediately put under pressure and tries a back pass without even looking where Kepa is.

That goal was  20%  on Zouma,  80% on Jorginho and 0% on Kepa who did well to prevent an own goal. Gutted to lose to this lot and the first time they've done the double over us in the league since the 2003/2004 season.

It's the Chelsea way though, always keeping us in suspense. Looking forward to the FA Cup Final now.

 

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1 hour ago, Stas1 said:

Jorginho completed on average 85.0% of his 749 completed passes under Lampard, and 59 of those passes were progressive passes, which are defined as a pass that travels 10+ yards towards the opponent’s goal. Jorginho averaged 3.47 progressive passes per game. He is the master of the sideways-backward passing bollox that stops our forward momentum and makes us dull as f**k. But we agree to disagree.

Well how does this random theory contradict anything that I have said so far? Didn't I say that we tried to play without a player like Jorginho this season already and that it didn't work? What are you trying to tell me with the amount of completed passes that Jorginho made, that he doesn't pass forward but just backwards?

Jorginho under Lampard last season was our top player when it came down to progressive passes - that means that nobody else passed the ball forward as much as he did so your theory about sideways-backward passing falls flat.

It wouldn't be fair that you disagree with me only but you should disagree with the reality instead, this is from Jorginho's profile on FBref.com:

J5.png.48c607d294fc514b8597cf6448b42390.png

progpass1920.png.f83d32f93d1da95d59578bd99c08c830.png

 

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2 hours ago, Scott Harris said:

Cup games are a world of difference from League games. In cup games, you are very rarely playing against ultra defensive teams, especially in Europe. Even Atletico Madrid didn't play ultra defensive against us, and that is something they have a reputation of doing under Simeone. But in the league, we will always come up short with him as a regular because there are certain types of teams he will never be suited to playing against, today was the perfect example of that.

With Jorginho we played Arsenal 8 times over the past 3 seasons (2018-2021), we have 3 wins, 4 loses and 1 draw.
If we compare that amount of games prior to having Jorginho in our squad, going backwards from 2018-2016 we had 1 win, 4 losses, 3 draws.
So the last 8 games without Jorginho even being a part of the squad we managed to beat Arsenal only 1 time, and since we have had Jorginho we managed to win against Arsenal 3 times so we have more wins against Arsenal while Jorginho has been our player in comparison to the same amount of games while he wasn't our player. So it looks to me like you just casually ignored a whole bunch of different factors here, after all the previous time we played Arsenal Jorginho didn't start the game and we were 2:0 down at half time already.

I also don't understand this with the cup games being so much different from league games., we lost the FA Cup final against Arsenal, but previously to that we won the Europa League against them and in both games Jorginho played so if he isn't suited to play against them but at the same time it's so different in cup games how does it work then?

confused 2 chainz GIF by MOST EXPENSIVEST

 

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Posted (edited)

No matter how crap Arsenal are we always put in a performance like that against them, I just don't get it.

Like it has been said already, they were defensive and then they went ultra defensive after we gift wrapped them their goal and from that point Jorginho should have been the one hooked instead of Billy. This is one loss that's really frustrated me this season more than any other, including the WBA game!.

Players like Zouma really haven't done themselves any favours here with TT. With Giroud or CHO you could give them the benefit of the doubt of not playing much, but still, they needed to be much better than that. Personally I would have left Havertz on, yes he missed that chance in the first half but I think he could have redeemed himself, but I think TT had the plan of playing him for a shorter period to prepare for the FA Cup Final.

Edited by Malcolm9
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13 hours ago, Malta Blue said:

 

I'm fuming right now. To think that it's Thomas Tuchel that made this mistake is so annoying. He repeats these mistakes maybe in two more matches, then we should sack him.

I was so annoyed when I saw the line-up yesterday. And I don't know when all these resting of players started in football. How do you rest Rudiger for this game? 

If Rudiger had played, maybe we would have conceeded that goal, but if he had played, maybe we would have found a way to equalise or probably win the match. Thesame thing mendy, why not start Mendy? 

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9 hours ago, EdinburghBlue said:

He should be out on loan. He’s been in and around the first team for 3 years as you say but he’s never getting regular football. Like it or not, the players need that to develop. Look at Mason, couple of years at Vitesse & Derby and he comes back in ready to go, Reece James the same, Christensen at Gladbach, even Tammy at Villa etc.

Callum needs consistent game time and I really don’t understand why we don’t loan him out to get it.

Or he becomes a RLC and fades to a mid table club?

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7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

There was a time where I was naive and thought that if I explain my perspective and show a whole bunch of different angles and things that people would be open to see a different view about a player but that never really worked out well, I learned that people tend to hold their view regardless of what is being said.

So I don't even want to go there, I'm just pointing out that we tried to play without the type of a player like Jorginho already this season, and it didn't work out. You can argue that there are better players out there but if Jorginho was really that average he wouldn't last for 3 full seasons here nor would he be our vice-captain nor would we ever finish top 4 nor would we ever reach the CL final...

Actually I know we don't have the type of players we need to have in that double six in the midfield. I mean just look at the two players that played those positions for Arsenal, Elneny and Partey. I think they were solid, and defensively, maybe they are better than the guys we have in our double six now.

And maybe in the summer, that is the area we need to be strengthening, but Jorginho is such an annoying player. How do you see an empty post and you play the ball there?

Sometimes too, some of us don't like it when we say we should bench Mason Mount, but when the opponents are so difficult at the back like the way Arsenal are, you need players that can give intelligent passes to split their defense.

The right combination yesterday should have been Ziyech, Pulisic and Havertz. I risk people being annoyed with me for this, because probably we have many British guys in this forum, but the truth is maybe Mason Mount is more of a direct player. I think he has an average shot, yes I said average, because he's still young, he's growing, I don't think his shots are at the level of shots of people like Lampard or Gerrard yet, so he can improve. 

But I don't think his gift is intelligent passes, I don't think he's very good in that. That's why I was so disappointed when Lampard changed the 433 formation we used sometimes this season. I think we got that formation, and it worked for us, and maybe because managers just think u just change formations anyhow because afterall they are the managers of the team. 

It doesn't work that way, look at Pep Guardiola, I think he plays 433 formation, and he sets his team that way, Antonio Conte uses 343 formation, i think he was even using one formation before but when he changed to that 343 formation and it worked, he sticked with it and sets up his team like that, and it's ok. Thomas Tuchel is using 343 formation, and he sets up his team like that and it's working. 

But under Lampard, I think we were using 4231 formation, and it was wasn't working, then he changed to 433 formation and it was working, my question is why did Lampard change the formation again?

In the 433 formation, Kante, Mount and Havertz were in midfield. I think Kante was so solid in front of the defence, and I think it was at that time that Lampard said the team had BALANCE, we were good in defence and attack. We had many attackers on the pitch, Mount for shots, Havertz for passes, Ziyech and Pulisic on the wings, James, Chillwell, Silva and Rudiger in defence. Werner upfront.

In this, Mount could play with Havertz, I'm not saying Mount should not be playing, both roles are important, but one role is more important than the other, u need someone that will be giving the guys upfront passes, if not the attackers can't do anything, and then we'll be struggling to get goals. Then again u need someone that will be playing shots too.

So we need both of them on the pitch and maybe the 433 formation will have been better for them.

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I'm still annoyed at this result for what it means. A loss to this Arsenal, that deserve to be fighting for relegation, is annoying in itself. This loss also means that we haven't wrapped up top 4 and have to go full strength in the last two PL games. But, the most exasperating thing is the way that we always confront these games. Last night was not down to full rotation, only Kepa and Gilmour were not usual starters (one could also argue that Zouma is not a bang on starter, but has played more regularly), and they weren't the worst of the lot. We lost thanks to a Jorginho brainfart (again), otherwise we would have got one point as Arsenal had no other gameplay than to defend. But let's not pretend that the loss was only down to Jorgi. The whole system stank the Bridge last night. Starting with Kepa on goal, why on earth don't you play your first goalie, the one that has played with the defenders most of the time? Kepa is not at fault in the goal and he did well, but that Jorginho pass looks an automatic back pass to where he'd expected to find the keeper. Mendy would most likely have been there. Also, what on earth is Zouma doing, he is one of the worst defenders that we could play given our play from the back system. He is not gifted with much passing ability and trying to make him play the ball is painful to watch. He should have kicked the ball forward instead of passing to Jorginho. The midfield worked in the first half thanks to Gilmour, which for me was the stand out player last night. And he got subbed at half time to play CHO who has had not much playing time and I'm starting to doubt that he is what we all thought he would be. Also, Mount did not do much, but his first half was decent trying to get into the box and trying to make things happen. The second half was to forget, mostly down to his positioning deeper, which we have already seen is not his best position. Havertz was his usual not-enough player, but can't blame him, tried and missed a sitter. And Pulisic got kicked around again quite a bit, but was also showing signs of tiredness. The substitutions were worse than what we had on the pitch, really, CHO is proving not be the electric player we thought he'd be, Giroud lacks pace and last night showed he lacked game time and did not held the ball or combined well with other players. He was mostly ineffective. Overall, the whole match was a disaster from the kick off, and I think it's mostly down to players and coach being thinking more about the final. Hopefully, we will not come to regret these 3 points lost to a mid table fodder like Arsenal, and we did not rest many starters for the FA Cup.

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It's funny but I thought the biggest reason for last night's loss was one player who didn't even play. Injury to Kovacic really f**ked us up, the timing with so many big games coming every three days or so couldn't have been worse. Yes, Jorginho gifted Arse the goal, but if Kova was fit, Jorginho wouldn't have had to play so much recently and may not have even been on the pitch today. He looked fatigued both physically and mentally, and that brainfart pass was the consequence of that. Pairing Kova with Billy for this game would have given us a much more dynamic midfield.

 

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Anyone still brewing over that Arse loss from yesterday...? This is one of those loses that just keep pissing you off the more you think about it.  We were not great yesterday but definitely should have gotten at least a point from it.  I guess it was just one of those games we just need to forget it and move on.

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All the good work of the weekend, with results in our favour undone by complacency, overthinking the schedule ahead. Successful teams usually try to keep a settled team, as few changes as possible , win the game and rest players on the hour. Resting the keeper is nonsense, its why most no2s only see action in cup matches these days, reward for being patient. Most players prefer to play than train and the adrenalin of the goal keeps them focused. The ironic part about last night was that on entering the pitch we had '3 Finals' to play, win last night and we had as good as secured our first aim of a top four place. As it is we now have '4 finals' to play with no wiggle room to rest players unless we do the unthinkable and heavily rotate in the FA Cup. The game is littered with teams who should have had doubles and trebles only to f*ck it up in the final weeks, lets hope we don't add to that unwanted history. We are praying now for ManU to do us a favour and at least take a point tonight.

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Just thinking how costly our semi final win against City could prove to be. If we'd lost, we wouldn't have rotated so many players last night and would have been well rested for the Leicester league game. 

The Cup final could conceivably see us miss out on top 4, and of course our battle to get top 4 and to win the FA cup will leave our players physically and mentally fatigued compared to our opponents in the CL final.

Just expressing my fears and frustration after last night's dismal defeat.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, Backbiter said:

Just thinking how costly our semi final win against City could prove to be. If we'd lost, we wouldn't have rotated so many players last night and would have been well rested for the Leicester league game. 

The Cup final could conceivably see us miss out on top 4, and of course our battle to get top 4 and to win the FA cup will leave our players physically and mentally fatigued compared to our opponents in the CL final.

Just expressing my fears and frustration after last night's dismal defeat.

 

 

Understand where you are coming from. But on the flipside it could, if everything goes well keep us sharp and make sure we go into the CL final with the momentum of a FA-cup win.

City have three meaningless games coming up and their season is over bar for the final against us. So hopefully that disrupts them a bit. It disrupted Bayern under Guardiola a few times when they had the league wrapped up early.

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