The Special One. Stay or Go?

[Nibs]

I, like many other of the regular posters on here have very mixed feelings about our special one at the moment. It was not long ago, on one of the other threads, when the rumour was that he was definitely on his way at the end of the season, that I expressed my outrage, and couldn't believe how the club were even considering getting rid of the guy who had brought us so much success and turned us into winners. But just a few weeks on I am not so sure and right now I would love to see a poll conducted on proper Chelsea fans, as to whether they want Mourinho to stay or not. I guess if I had to say right now, I would still want him here next season, but that would be subject to conditions.

He has to take a look at himself and some of his comments and admit, that at times, he acts like a complete knob. Okay, we have just lost one of the biggest games in our history and to one of our biggest rivals and no, I certainly did not want to see him happy and joking and wishing Liverpool all the best. I was glad to see him totally shell shocked and hurting. But to then come out with the crap about the best team lost and we were the only team trying to win etc etc, it's just laughable and insults us fans. He came across like a kid on sportsday beaten in the race he expected to win and couldn't quite accept the fact.

But even more of a concern to me than Mourinho's lack of dignity is the style (or lack of it) of football. It can be argued that in the games against Newcastle, Bolton and Liverpool the players were tired. But tired or not, is that any excuse for how little football we played? It was both hugely disappointing and painful to watch in that in our biggest game of the season, we resorted to hoofing long ball after long ball. I thought we had a team with some pretty useful ball players in it? People have argued that maybe that was not Mourinho's fault and that the players just resorted to that tactic? No way. It is so easy to get a message to the players during a game, surely after one or two long balls the coach would say ENOUGH, get it down and lets start playing football. No, what we witnessed was how Mourinho wanted us to do it and he must have firmly believe that type of tactic would bring its rewards.

As much as I love Mourinho, I love Chelsea more. I am very appreciative of the fact that he has brought us back to back league titles, won two league cups, got us to two CL semi finals and could now possibly add the FA cup to all that. But even after all that, if he cannot provide assurances that we will no longer play this

horrible type of football that we have witnessed of late, then sorry, as good as he may have been for us, he'd have to go in my book.

[Elliott]

I'm not going to say anything else, other than i can't believe that this is even a question.

The thought of him leaving is horrible.

[Nibs]

But Elliott, is it? Really?

You are honestly telling me that if next season we played a large number of games just as we did the other night, that you would be happy with that?

[Elliott]

I was'nt going to get into this Nibs! But you have wiggled the bait, and i can't resist!

To sum up my feelings, i would say:

1. I was disappointed with the way we played on Tuesday. Yep, it was negative, but i'm not sure if this was due to Jose's instructions, the fitness of our team having played 60 games this season, or a bit of both?

2. If it was due to tactics, and instructions, im disappointed that Jose has not learnt from the same game - 2005. After all, we only needed one goal.

3. I dont think that we will play a large number of games next season with the same style, just as i dont think we have played many games this season, with that particular style.

4. I think that Jose will improve both the quality and numbers of the squad that we currently have, buying players that we actually need (i.e - a right back, a centre back, & another striker), and as a result we will be stronger for it.

5. Even after the disappointment of not reaching the CL Final, i still believe that we currently have the best man for the job, and that continuity is the key.

To sack him, and start afresh, with a new manager, new coaching staff, new players etc. would only hinder us, and not help us progress.

[Liam]

I hope I'm a proper Chelsea fan. I've certainly been around long enough.

With the arrival of Abramovich and his unprecedented injection of cash I thought that the opportunity to do something really special had arrived for Chelsea Football Club. Here was a guy with an almost childlike love of the game and with the willingness to invest any amount of money to achieve his dream. I envisioned great times ahead for the club as we forged ahead embracing all that is good about the beautiful game.

At the time we had Claudio Ranieri at the the helm - deeply flawed as a manager - but a dreamer and a genuinely nice person. Whether or not he would have won things we'll never know because by that time we also had Peter Kenyon.

It was obvious with Kenyon's arrival that things had taken a turn for the worse. A nasty piece of work. His first job was a public undermining of the decent man that is Ranieri as the club had already identified the one to take us forward in Mourinho.

I've disliked Mourinho since before he came to Chelsea for reasons which I've repeated ad nauseum to the annoyance of many. He has brought us levels of success beyond which we could ever have hoped for pre-Abramovich. But now Abramovich is here this level of success should be sustainable once we can continue to invest in the finest talent available.

I believe we can sustain the success we have enjoyed under Mourinho without the stench that his antics and the likes of Cashley and Kenyon create around the club. I believe we should be able to achieve this success by embracing the positive rather than always focusing on the negative. I would like to see Mourinho leave at the end of this season.

[youlots]

Well Nibs why don't you write a letter to the board then? Why don't you start picketing the Bridge with a sandwich board? Put your money where your mouth is and hand in your club membership? Your argument seems to be well you know thanks for the recent silverware and oh yeah especially where we've never really cracked it before with any consistency in 100 years but, hey Jose, you know, you've really got no dignity and you're comments aren't really very british and, hey look, our football at present is not nearly exciting as say Arsenal or Man U and I'm really starting to get so upset about what all the british media keep constantly saying about us dear old chels: it's so deeply upsetting that....well really, perhaps its time you went.

Why don't you start writing for the guardian/times/sky/UEFA/british media in general/ cos that's what they're saying?

Seriously. All this bourgy outpourings. really...

Let's be honest about the European Cup. In the the last 20 years, english teams have won it twice: both in extraordinary circumstances where they probably shouldn't have: Manure in extra time in '99 when Bayern relaxed in the last 2 mins and Pool in '05 when Milan totally switched off (hubris?) in the 2nd half (and then Pool won on penalties).

Let's also be honest about why english/scottish teams haven't done consistently well in the European Cup in the last 20 years: because the english game is so different to Spain/France etc and because british defences have traditionally been weak (why have Milan/Juve etc got to the finals - predominantly because of their defences. The corrollary of this is that our sternest opposition in European competition under the defensive style that Mourinho has adopted in order to get us where we've got will be other british teams who have also tidied up on their defences (such as benitez, more recently ferguson, even wenger - hence gallas). The Arse also got to the final last year because of their defence - not because of Henry et al.

We both know that if Pool upset Milan again in Athens it won't be on account of beautiful football but on account of defence.

We also both know that if we'd scored the 1 goal we'd needed at Anfield and got to Athens, it had the potential to be a great game of football precisely because we do have some great footballers as does Milan (and more so than Pool) but equally, because of our back 5.

We didn't - but that's football.

Its all very well to say that Barca beat the Arse last year because Goofy/Messi/Deco go them there. That's only partly true - they got there because they had a great defence and Riikard would be the first to acknowledge this.

And that's what Jose has given us. From Maka to the back four.

There's this constant drivel on this site abouts JCLs - I'd say the biggest problem on here is about warped nostalgia, proper perspective and short memories.

Oh and by the way, when Jose arrived in England and talked about being the "special one" he was taking the piss.

Yet even now you're using it as a criticism of him. Mate, I hate to be in the trenches with you. Sorry.

[loz]

Well Nibs why don't you write a letter to the board then? Why don't you start picketing the Bridge with a sandwich board? Put your money where your mouth is and hand in your club membership?

My guess is because Nibs is a Chelsea fan above all else, not a Jose fan first and foremost but a Chelsea fan. That is why he never handed in his club memebership when we were struggling in the old 2nd division and that is why he will not be handing in his club membership now that we are successful but he has issues with the management style.

Ever since Jose took over there have been some fans who just can't seem to accept that some fans may not be willing to sleep with Jose in order to show their adulation toward him. Jose is a character who talks a lot, a hell of a lot, and he is a manger who plays very effective but not always attractive football. As a consequence there are always going to be some people who are not enamoured with him as a person, or the football he plays. That doesn't for a second mean you are less of a Chelsea fan and should therefore hand in your club membership. Chelsea are far bigger than any one man.

[Liam]

Well Nibs why don't you write a letter to the board then? Why don't you start picketing the Bridge with a sandwich board? Put your money where your mouth is and hand in your club membership? Your argument seems to be well you know thanks for the recent silverware and oh yeah especially where we've never really cracked it before with any consistency in 100 years but, hey Jose, you know, you've really got no dignity and you're comments aren't really very british and, hey look, our football at present is not nearly exciting as say Arsenal or Man U and I'm really starting to get so upset about what all the british media keep constantly saying about us dear old chels: it's so deeply upsetting that....well really, perhaps its time you went.

Why don't you start writing for the guardian/times/sky/UEFA/british media in general/ cos that's what they're saying?

Seriously. All this bourgy outpourings. really...

Anytime anyone criticises Mourinho around here this is the sh*te that follows.

What is about the adulation he inspires? Why are his fans so idiotic that they cannot undersatnd how someone can criticise their hero and still love Chelsea.

[youlots]

So then, we come down to what it means to be a chelsea supporter do we loz?

OK then, instead of doing Nibs bidding/mothering, what do you think a "chelsea supporter" should be? What should they feel? What opinions should they be allowed to express? Everything I suppose - this site is democratic which is great. I guess I'm just really disappointed in some posters on here. I mean really, but for a win against the barcodes or bolton and but for the toffees gifting manure a win we would have been level with Manure and but for losing apenalty shoot-out in a semi of the european cup for godsakes we would have been Athens.

Ok then, let Jose go, ask Frank, JT and most of the rest if they want to stay without Jose. I doubt it.

[Barn]

I've got to be honest, I really can't believe this question is being asked. I was chatting to some other Chelsea fans about the possibility of RA getting shot of Jose a few weeks ago and the main thing that we couldn't get our heads round was that it doesn't matter if RA like JM or not, he's done an amazing job. With that in mind I really don't think it matters a jot if you or I like JM, he's still doing an amazing job. No team has ever come so close to winning all four as we have this season, I agree that if we look back at a season where all we've won is the Carling Cup then it's a bit disapointing. But look a bit closer and what's really happened is that ManU have been brilliantly consistant this season (we've still taken it to the wire!), and our small squad have got knackered, they've played two long hard seasons without a break!

JM is the best manager we've ever had, he comes across at times as a bit of a tit, but the players love him and lay everything on the line for him. So for me I want him here next season.

[youlots]

Liam, if "sh*te" is paraphrasing then so be it.

Ya know you're always citicising Jose - in fact you even post that your proud that you've never liked him. Well I respect that even if I think it is and has always been self-serving twaddle.

What really galls me is that you never put your money where your mouth is. I mean who is that you want to manage the chels and why?

If you at least gave us that then, well I might think that there was something to this all knowing/masonic eye icon of yours but it never comes does it?

[loz]

So then, we come down to what it means to be a chelsea supporter do we loz?

OK then, instead of doing Nibs bidding/mothering, what do you think a "chelsea supporter" should be? What should they feel? What opinions should they be allowed to express? Everything I suppose - this site is democratic which is great. I guess I'm just really disappointed in some posters on here. I mean really, but for a win against the barcodes or bolton and but for the toffees gifting manure a win we would have been level with Manure and but for losing apenalty shoot-out in a semi of the european cup for godsakes we would have been Athens.

Ok then, let Jose go, ask Frank, JT and most of the rest if they want to stay without Jose. I doubt it.

It would appear you are reading your own post and confusing it with mine.

I am saying that Nibs is perfectly entitled to be a Chelsea fan and not be enamoured with Jose, just as you can be a Chelsea fan and adore Jose. You, on the other hand, are telling Nibs he should hand in his membership because he is not content with Jose.

So I ask you this, which one of us is bringing it down to 'what it means to be a Chelsea supporter'?

[youlots]

Loz you said he was the chelsea supporter/fan whatever.

You obviously know him - I respect your call.

I'm not asking anyone to get into bed with Jose or love him. I'm just defending the man. I think he deserves to be defended.

I'm not trying to drive a wedge between Chels and Jose. But some are.

How long since manure won anything? What about the Arse? Bet ya would be seeing the sort of tripe drivelled up on here against them if they'd helped win the league 2 years running.

It's sad.

[Liam]

Ya know you're always citicising Jose - in fact you even post that your proud that you've never liked him. Well I respect that even if I think it is and has always been self-serving twaddle.

I take no "pride" in disliking him. You're being ridiculous. And if you respect my "self-serving twaddle" you grant your respect too easily.

What really galls me is that you never put your money where your mouth is. I mean who is that you want to manage the chels and why?

If you at least gave us that then, well I might think that there was something to this all knowing/masonic eye icon of yours but it never comes does it?

Well, I've never been asked. But as you seem interested I would bring back either of Gullit or Vialli in a second but my first choice would be Van Basten.

[loz]

I think the point you are either missing or ignoring is that people are referring to being disenchanted with Jose as a person, or the style of football we are playing. I don't see anyone denying the success he has brought to the club. If people were questioning Jose based on results I would agree with you wholeheartedly youlots however that isn't the case.

I guess there are:

Some fans who place winning as the be all and end all;

Some who think style and entertainment are very important factors

Some who think the club's dignity should be maintained

with the majority probably wanting a chunk of all three (myself included)

What it appears is under question is the 2nd and 3rd facets - the extent to which people are content with Jose will depend on how much weight they place on each one.

Personally I am wavering. I want to see Jose stay next season and am very hopeful that the recent announcements by both club and Jose have foundation and are not bullsh*t, however I want to see an improvement in the way we play and the way Jose (and the club) conducts itself. If next season follows a similar pattern to this season in terms of the way we play and the way the club conducts itslef (by this I mean everything from Jose's rants, the ticket prices, the ridiculous pre-season schedule etc) then I will be moving toward feeling it is time for a change and that change could be Jose and/or Kenyon.

[heckel]

And if you respect my "self-serving twaddle" you grant your respect too easily.

Great comeback! A memorable for sure.

[ColeMan]

Guys, we all have different perspectives on what has happened, and what will happen in the future for Chelsea. As Loz says, the club is bigger than one man, and would, I have no doubt survive quite well without Jose. Having said that, the thought of him leaving us is giving me nightmares, who the hell would you bring in to replace him, he may not be perfect, referencing some of his comments, but , I for one, cannot see anyone else out there to compare with him. Our recent success I put down to him, he may have a great squad of players playing there hearts out, but he is responsible for our style of play from week to week, and must share in the plaudits of success. The style of play frustrates the hell out of me at times, but is very effective, just look at our results over the last 2 seasons, so should not be criticised unduly. If this style resulted in us losing frequently then that would be a different matter. As for other teams, the media et al calling us boring, who cares, in a league situation, results are all that matters.

I think we were spoilt in the first season, when the 4-3-3 was used with such effect, and all now yearn for that kind of football to return. The problem is that that kind of play is essentially suited to cup competitions, one off games where you can afford to attack the opposition (we should obviously have used it more in the cup comps this season), but have still progressed well with this "negative" style.

My main worry at the moment, is that Roman seems to be trying to influence which players we sign. With all due respect, (we all know its his money being used), he should leave that to the manager and his advisers. We do not need a dual tier of management here, with the manager having to go a third party to get approval, before it gets to Roman, and I dont mean Kenyon, by the way.

Jose should be allowed to finish what he has started, albeit with toned down rantings, sign which players he wants, within reason, and be allowed to do the job for which he has been employed. His first 2 seasons have been nothing short of spectacular. Anyone thinking that we could achieve the heights of the last 2 seasons in perpetuity are severely deluded.

Although I understand both viewpoints on offer, I seriously doubt that we could find a replacement of enough quality, and therefore, I am definitely in the Jose to stay club.

[youlots]

Your so right Liam - you don't deserve my respect - you're a oxymoronic bourgy wanniassa and I'm done with you.

[heckel]

As to the question. I think the less turn over of player/staff at the moment the better. I want to see the current bunch stay together with no more changes in personnel (other than to send Ballack packing). Mourinho is developing the team in his image and to abort now would be a travesty and would no doubt lead to *another* period of ditching players, signing new players at CFC rates leading to renewed vilification for our sugar-daddy ways. Also, I'd like Mourinho to prove to us he's no flash in the pan. Forget the dossier and special one bollocks, lets see if he can construct and sustain a side over a period of time, lets see if he can remotivate players. Lets also see if he can mature as a manager and move from his guerilla style media tactics to a more consistent polished approach.

[heckel]

Just to clarify for those of you who don't get the cultural subtleties of youlots' post. Liam is probably 33, has an income of about 250 quid a week, was born in Australia and is Catholic.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wanniassa, ... _Territory

Also, are you sure you mean 'oxymoronic'? Perhaps 'self contradictory' is closer to your meaning?

[Pauly]

The only manager I would replace JM with is Hiddink- he has both the character and media skills that JM does as well as the abiltiy to construct an attacking and defending football side. JM is learning slowly- I like that he has put mikel into the lineup, i like that he changed the way the boys were playing at after half time with liverpool- it shows that he wants to be able to hold the ball and put attacking players in his side to be able to do that. I don't know if I want him to stay or not- i think that there are always going to be deficiencies with him as there are with any manager- his inability to resist this 442 diamond he loves but has implemented so incredibly poorly here are chelsea, the inexplicable foresight which was his transfer campaign this year, the lack of attacking strategy which comes from lack of preparation or priority in that sense.. but on the other hand i definitely think he has improved as a manager while at chelsea. It all depends for me if he can understand and improve on what happened in the first half against liverpool and in situations like that- which against liverpool, i feel he did.

The question for me is Where can he go now as a manager? Everyone has their own faults and everyone their own successes- JM's successes have been enormous and fantastic, now it's a question of the future- can he sign good attacking talent, can he create a team able to defend, attack, keep the ball and create an effective 11 capable of playing a mixed football not a 90 minute repeat of the same policy: ergo: a football side with flexibility not a machine. From what i've seen in the past i don't think he can do those things- sign quality attacking talent and WANT to implement them properly into his side. I always have been of the opinion that Ranieri was one season and one player away (gronkjaer's impending replacement!) from having an 11 capable of playing beautiful football and winning the premiership title- as i said, managers have different strengths and weaknesses- they each do it in their own way- i don't subscribe to the opinion that Jose Mourinho is the only manager that could/would have won us the EPL, that's why I doubt I guess. But on the other hand i realise that nobody is perfect and JM's strengths are considerable!

p

[youlots]

Heckel, no, I meant what I said and I'll leave it at that -perhaps the cultural ellipsis was too great.

By the way, the wiki wanniassa reference doesn't include the pejorative meaning - which goes back decades - although in this context it was perfect. Some of our forbears used it at Gallipoli against certain british officers - I'd better leave it that.

[Nibs]

And the mixed responses have just underlined what I thought. There are those that totally worship JM and will always choose to ignore his obvious shortcomings.

There are those that have had enough of him and would not be unhappy to see him go. And then there are those like me, totally mixed - that's not sitting on the fence, but appreciating all the good he has done and genuinely loving the bloke on the whole, whilst now being rather disillusioned with him and not knowing if he will ever be capable of getting us to play football I would like to watch week in week out.

Thanks Loz for kinda sticking up for me (even though you don't know me - well not intimately anyway ), and I do apologise for bringing this up in a way, when it has been done to death one way or another. But that's just how frustrated I feel at the moment. Youlots, I am in my early 40's and I have supported Chelsea through thick and thin. Okay, since moving to Norfolk a couple of years back, I don't attend as many games as I did, but that has as much to do with now having young kids, a mortgage etc as it does with logistics. But I do still get to games and whether I attend in the flesh or watch on Sky or listen on the radio, I still support them as I always have done and the defeats hurt as much as ever. Not sure why I am explaining myself but your comment "I'd hate to be in the trenches with you" - sorry don't get that. So none of us are ever allowed to be critical of Mourinho, even when he F**ks up?

If we had lost to Liverpool the other night but played decent football then I wouldn't even be posting this. Of course I prefer that we win trophies, but in all honesty, if we don't, it won't bother me as it's not the end of the world. I'm not saying I want us to be like Arsenal and play "total football" but be out of all competitions by February / March. But surely it is possible, with the players we now have, to dish up better than we have of late. And when things do go pear shaped as they did the other night, don't take the supporters as mugs- just bloody well admit it and hold your hand up.

Oh and Liam, when I put in bold the proper Chelsea supporters, I wasn't meaning to sound like one of those "I'm a real supporter - you're not" types . I just meant any of us who feel for the club like they would a lover and who feel physically sick when they play a game like the other night and then lie awake all night fretting about it as opposed to the JCL's that Geezer (or is it Glory55?) that are often referring to.

[Liam]

Oh and Liam, when I put in bold the proper Chelsea supporters, I wasn't meaning to sound like one of those "I'm a real supporter - you're not" types.

I realise that Nibs.

[Elliott]

If we had lost to Liverpool the other night but played decent football then I wouldn't even be posting this. Of course I prefer that we win trophies, but in all honesty, if we don't, it won't bother me as it's not the end of the world. I'm not saying I want us to be like Arsenal and play "total football" but be out of all competitions by February / March. But surely it is possible, with the players we now have, to dish up better than we have of late. And when things do go pear shaped as they did the other night, don't take the supporters as mugs- just bloody well admit it and hold your hand up.

Nibs,

I am not blind to Jose's shortcomings. Not at all!

This pissed me off.

We're not all eejits. (As Liam might say).