Saul Niguez

[ForeverCarefree]

Even as a loan signing I felt like we'd been ripped off with that performance. 

That was painful viewing and doubt he'll be getting a second start again any time soon. 

Loftus-Cheek must have been watching on from the bench in bewilderment. 

[evissy]

Well that was an awful debut. 45 minutes of being completely out of place. His best thing was that small pass to Kovacic which led Mateo to make that mazing run and releasing Lukaku to score. Other than that he was a disaster.

He tried to be calm but Villa really made him look bad with snappy pressing. He did not know what hit him.

Only way is up. I would probably think of starting him in the CL. That is not the same type of football as Prem. He has a tons of experience in that league. We need him up to speed.

[The Don Antonio]

To be fair I dont even think Tuchel thought Villa were going to play so aggressive. If  Saul had played against Crystal palace in our first game of the season he would have looked world class because Palace just stayed back and refused to press us or hit us on the counter. He was thrown in the deep end and will be better for it since we didnt lose the game.  

 

[ozboy]

Just watching Lamar playing for Athletico now. He is a league ahead off the Saul I saw yesterday. Yes only 45 minutes and you have to make allowances but for me it’s easy to see why he couldn’t hold down a place in the Athletico midfield. RLC a better choice and RLC is useless defensively. Should have bought Tchouameni. But maybe he’ll be a star next time. Where’s Bakyoko when we need him. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by ozboy

[axman2526]

If the old Saul is still in there TT will find him.

If not then it vindicated why his old boss wanted shot of him.

[RMCM]

The knee-jerk reactions are mental. Yes he was sh*te yesterday, no arguing that, but it was 45 minutes in a team he signed for 10 days ago, in a league he's never played in against a team that were unexpectedly aggressive. If he's still playing like that by Christmas then fine, but sh*ting on about how we should have signed X or Y or Z after seeing him play for 45 minutes is a joke. 

[Gol15]

I think that the main reason behind his bad debut isn't due to the fact that he isn't used to being pressured or something like that.

He had a great game against Liverpool in the CL some year ago or so which is one of the best PL teams that knows how to pressure and press the opposition.

He didn't really know what to do with the ball and he made mistakes and kept losing the ball, that shows to me that he wasn't ready to be an automatic starter and I didn't expect him to start the game in the first place. Clearly what he showed in a week of training isn't the same as what is expected of him during games.

I also think that he is another kind of a midfielder that we already have. He is like Kovacic and Kante, a CM that is good in defensive tasks but that loves to go forward and dribble. In that sense he clearly shouldn't be playing along side someone like Kovacic but rather with someone like Jorginho.

[ForeverCarefree]

1 hour ago, RMCM said:

The knee-jerk reactions are mental. Yes he was sh*te yesterday, no arguing that, but it was 45 minutes in a team he signed for 10 days ago, in a league he's never played in against a team that were unexpectedly aggressive. If he's still playing like that by Christmas then fine, but sh*ting on about how we should have signed X or Y or Z after seeing him play for 45 minutes is a joke. 

It wasn't just a bad performance, it was inept. He looked completely out of his depth. 

Yes it was his debut etc. but you'd expect a seasoned pro like him to show some flashes of competency and ability. 

You've got Harvey Barnes at Liverpool entrusted to play in their midfield ahead of some pretty big names meanwhile we've loaned out Gilmour and Gallagher and appear to have completely overlooked RLC too. 

So if you're putting faith in Saul ahead of all those others he needs to prove he's better than them and quick. Otherwise his being here is pointless. 

Edited September 12, 2021 by ForeverCarefree

[RMCM]

57 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

It wasn't just a bad performance, it was inept. He looked completely out of his depth. 

Yes it was his debut etc. but you'd expect a seasoned pro like him to show some flashes of competency and ability. 

You've got Harvey Barnes at Liverpool entrusted to play in their midfield ahead of some pretty big names meanwhile we've loaned out Gilmour and Gallagher and appear to have completely overlooked RLC too. 

So if you're putting faith in Saul ahead of all those others he needs to prove he's better than them and quick. Otherwise his being here is pointless. 

I assume you mean Elliott at Liverpool? He's a talent, as are gilmour and gallagher, but the club has decided that they need the experience of going out on loan, i'm sure both will feature heavily for us in the future, but Saul was meant to be a 'here and now' signing, and i'm not saying we need to give him loads of time to prove himself but more than 45 minutes is warranted. Players have bad days but clearly he's showing something in training that warrants a start over RLC. I love RLC but there'll be a reason he didn't start yesterday, it's not as if Tuchel is against giving players their chance, I just think we need to wait and see what Saul has to offer, yesterday he stank out the house but we've signed him for a reason and i'm sure he'll prove it. 

[Guest Sindre]

Worth remembering that even someone like T.Silva had a horrible full-debut for us away to WBA. And we all know what he came back to do.

It was a tough afternoon for Saul but I believe he'll bounce back.

 

[Deino]

13 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

It wasn't just a bad performance, it was inept. He looked completely out of his depth. 

Yes it was his debut etc. but you'd expect a seasoned pro like him to show some flashes of competency and ability. 

You've got Harvey Barnes at Liverpool entrusted to play in their midfield ahead of some pretty big names meanwhile we've loaned out Gilmour and Gallagher and appear to have completely overlooked RLC too. 

So if you're putting faith in Saul ahead of all those others he needs to prove he's better than them and quick. Otherwise his being here is pointless. 

Harsh. RLC doesn't work in midfield in Tuchel's system and the rest of the young ones need time developing away from the pressure.

The guy barely had minutes working with the team and straightaway went into the game.

And this is criticism when we win!

 

[ForeverCarefree]

6 minutes ago, Deino said:

Harsh. RLC doesn't work in midfield in Tuchel's system and the rest of the young ones need time developing away from the pressure.

The guy barely had minutes working with the team and straightaway went into the game.

And this is criticism when we win!

But why do our youngsters need to develop away from pressure whereas Liverpool were happy to entrust an 18 year old Harvey Barnes to start for them? 

If you're good enough, you're old enough. 

Billy Gilmour especially has the talent. So if there was room in the squad for Saul and a justification that he'll play enough football alongside Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic why weren't we able to give those same minutes to Gilmour? 

[weetee]

50 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Billy Gilmour especially has the talent. So if there was room in the squad for Saul and a justification that he'll play enough football alongside Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic why weren't we able to give those same minutes to Gilmour? 

Can't predict the future but in theory it makes some sense imho: loan out a very young player that has the talent but lacks serious experience as a constant starter so that he can gain that experience to cpme back and immediatley be a candidate for starting formation at a AAA-club while you bring in an experienced and potentially world-class (broad definition) player that you expect to come in and bring 100% more or less on the get go and in various scenarios due his experience.

It remains to be seen how many minutes Saul actually gets once Jorgi, Kova (in beast mode atm, arguable more or less since TT took over) and Kanté are available (or even 2/3 at least fully fit). I think that especially as a CM who's supposed to dictate and influence the game as nobody else on the pitch it helps you most to play a lot of games as a regular starter if you lack match experience -> not the worst decision to let Gilmour go on loan to a side where he can learn exactly that.

[Guest Sindre]

1 hour ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Billy Gilmour especially has the talent. So if there was room in the squad for Saul and a justification that he'll play enough football alongside Jorginho, Kante and Kovacic why weren't we able to give those same minutes to Gilmour? 

So he can get 30+ Premier League games under his belt as a starter? It remains to be seen how good Saul actually is but as of now he's fourth choice and will have limited game-time when everyone is fit and the international break is behind everyone.

At this point it's more important for Gilmour to play week in, week out because he'd be fourth choice here as well. And he's got a lot of developing to do before he starts a lot of games for us.

 

[ForeverCarefree]

38 minutes ago, weetee said:

Can't predict the future but in theory it makes some sense imho: loan out a very young player that has the talent but lacks serious experience as a constant starter so that he can gain that experience to cpme back and immediatley be a candidate for starting formation at a AAA-club while you bring in an experienced and potentially world-class (broad definition) player that you expect to come in and bring 100% more or less on the get go and in various scenarios due his experience.

It remains to be seen how many minutes Saul actually gets once Jorgi, Kova (in beast mode atm, arguable more or less since TT took over) and Kanté are available (or even 2/3 at least fully fit). I think that especially as a CM who's supposed to dictate and influence the game as nobody else on the pitch it helps you most to play a lot of games as a regular starter if you lack match experience -> not the worst decision to let Gilmour go on loan to a side where he can learn exactly that.

But why does he need to go out on loan to gain experience? He's already good enough. We've seen enough of him to know that. 

Clubs like Liverpool are happy to play an 18 year old Harvey Barnes. Barca are willing to put faith in an 18 year old Pedri. 

We do it so often at Chelsea we've convinced ourselves it's the only way to do it that we have to loan out players until their early 20s to make sure they're "ready". Meanwhile, whilst they're away getting experience playing for teams nowhere near our level of ability we're giving minutes to overpriced signings. 

1 minute ago, Sindre said:

At this point it's more important for Gilmour to play week in, week out because he'd be fourth choice here as well. And he's got a lot of developing to do before he starts a lot of games for us.

But why are we happy to be paying Saul mammoth wages to be 4th choice? 

Make no mistake the intention is for him to play more than his fair share of minutes, that's why he was thrust straight into the starting line up. 

When Mbappe was 17 did Monaco send him out on loan to "gain experience"? No, they threw him staright into their starting line up. A year later he's joining PSG. 

This fallacy that players can't contribute at Chelsea because they're too young and inexperienced needs to change. 

[weetee]

54 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

But why does he need to go out on loan to gain experience? He's already good enough. We've seen enough of him to know that. 

Clubs like Liverpool are happy to play an 18 year old Harvey Barnes. Barca are willing to put faith in an 18 year old Pedri. 

We do it so often at Chelsea we've convinced ourselves it's the only way to do it that we have to loan out players until their early 20s to make sure they're "ready". Meanwhile, whilst they're away getting experience playing for teams nowhere near our level of ability we're giving minutes to overpriced signings. 

But why are we happy to be paying Saul mammoth wages to be 4th choice? 

Make no mistake the intention is for him to play more than his fair share of minutes, that's why he was thrust straight into the starting line up. 

When Mbappe was 17 did Monaco send him out on loan to "gain experience"? No, they threw him staright into their starting line up. A year later he's joining PSG. 

This fallacy that players can't contribute at Chelsea because they're too young and inexperienced needs to change. 

Not sure "we're happy to pay those wages" - the fact that we waited till the very last day to sign him up (on loan) tells me that we may have had other plans that did't went the way that was hoped for.

 

Maybe you see it different, but I certainly would see Billy as the 4th choice - if Saul reaches his regular level I'd say he's the far saver short time solution. Not sure what's inherently bad about Gilmour playing each and every single game at an EPL club either which he never would have done for us. Pedri doesn't really have that level of competition at Barca, who usually play a three man midfield, like Liverpool, which is quite a different task than our two man midfield - also Barca have to desparately develop what talent they've actually got left (and even there you could ask what happened to Puig, Arthur beforehand..etc.). and what options does Liverpool have? We have atm three world class players, or at least are in world class form, that share two positions already. Not sure that goes for Pool as well.

 

Saul was thrust into the starting formation mainly because Kanté's injured and Jorginho already played a lot of games depsite having very little free time after the EC finale himself while Saul didn't get the call for international duties and could rest and train "at home".

 

Monaco's whole purpose back then was to heat up as many young talents asap and to sell them to generate heavy profits - very different goal to what Chelsea as a club aims for. Also I'd argue that it's far easier to throw in an attacking player (next to a prime-ish Falcao no less) than one who has to play a far more subtle and "demanding" role in CM.

Edited September 13, 2021 by weetee

[Vagabond]

Obviously won't judge him on 45 min, but I thought he had a few easy and logical short (some would say "jorginhoesque") passes to Kovacic but decided to ignore him only to get in trouble a moment later. It was baffling.

If Kante is still out I'd put Saul in with Jorginho tomorrow since Kova looked knackered against Villa from min 70 and needs some rest for the upcoming games.

[Guest Sindre]

2 hours ago, ForeverCarefree said:

Make no mistake the intention is for him to play more than his fair share of minutes, that's why he was thrust straight into the starting line up. 

When Mbappe was 17 did Monaco send him out on loan to "gain experience"? No, they threw him staright into their starting line up. A year later he's joining PSG. 

This fallacy that players can't contribute at Chelsea because they're too young and inexperienced needs to change. 

Every path is different. Mount and James benefited greatly from loans for example.

And some may disagree but I don't think Gilmour is ready yet. He's very vulnerable defensively still and has "only" had a decent start for Norwich this campaign and he still got a lot of learning to do. Learning that we can't really afford right now as we are in a dogfight for the title this season.

I am sure the hope is that Saul regains the form that made him one of the most sought after midfielders in Europe at one point. It's a chance to take but clearly one the club and Tuchel wanted to go for.

[Jangz]

i would rather focus on the positive that i saw.. i think there was one moment in the first half where he received the ball took a touch saw Alonso making a run and with no hesitation hit it 50-60 yards to him. Had alonso been able to bring it down cleanly it was a simple square pass for a goal.. Lets be calm.. many people dont remember but immediately after the restart Gilmour started against leicester in the cup and those were the worst 45 minutes one could have similar to Saul. So i think it can happen - yes Saul got surprised by the pace of the EPL.. i think it was TT who should take the blame - he should have started RLC over Saul.

Aston villa under dean smith play good football - lets not forget our last game of the league we actually got out fought and lost to them.

[ForeverCarefree]

12 minutes ago, Sindre said:

I am sure the hope is that Saul regains the form that made him one of the most sought after midfielders in Europe at one point. It's a chance to take but clearly one the club and Tuchel wanted to go for.

So why is it better to risk hoping Saul regains form that he's not shown for two years, playing in a league and a country that's completely new to him as apposed to showing faith in a midfielder who has put in a few MOTM performances for club and country in his limited senior career already. 

Why take a chance on Saul but not Gilmour? 

I hope Saul is a success at Chelsea, better for us that he is. I'm just struggling to wrap my head around this one at the moment. 

[Guest Sindre]

5 minutes ago, ForeverCarefree said:

So why is it better to risk hoping Saul regains form that he's not shown for two years, playing in a league and a country that's completely new to him as apposed to showing faith in a midfielder who has put in a few MOTM performances for club and country in his limited senior career already. 

Why take a chance on Saul but not Gilmour? 

I hope Saul is a success at Chelsea, better for us that he is. I'm just struggling to wrap my head around this one at the moment. 

Because if Saul fail we will manage with Kante, Kovacic and Jorginho who are all terrific midfielders. And if Saul does alright he'll get his chances when the other midfielders needs to be rested in the domestic cups for example.

Gilmour could have stayed and do that job too. But that would mean being on the bench most of the time and we clearly thought it was more important for Gilmour to play every week, get a rhytmn and learn the ins and outs of the toughest league in the world.

[royce987]

On 12/09/2021 at 13:47, axman2526 said:

Thing for me is Atletico spent the whole window trying to get shot of him. Why?

 

Did we get our answer today?

They needed to get salary off the books so they could sign griezmann. 

[axman2526]

43 minutes ago, royce987 said:

They needed to get salary off the books so they could sign griezmann. 

True enough but again why was Saul the one chosen to sacrifice? They must have other big earners. Lemar, Koke, Suarez, Oblek etc.

[RMH]

7 hours ago, axman2526 said:

True enough but again why was Saul the one chosen to sacrifice? They must have other big earners. Lemar, Koke, Suarez, Oblek etc.

Saul asked Atleti to leave, it’s widely reported that he wasn’t happy playing for Simeone any more and had asked the club to let him leave.

[Gol15]

On 13/09/2021 at 12:36, Sindre said:

Every path is different. Mount and James benefited greatly from loans for example.

And some may disagree but I don't think Gilmour is ready yet. He's very vulnerable defensively still and has "only" had a decent start for Norwich this campaign and he still got a lot of learning to do. Learning that we can't really afford right now as we are in a dogfight for the title this season.

I am sure the hope is that Saul regains the form that made him one of the most sought after midfielders in Europe at one point. It's a chance to take but clearly one the club and Tuchel wanted to go for.

IMO Tuchel will try to win the title and the strategy was to find an experienced player that has delivered on the big stage in the past but that wouldn't mind to be the sub option. Tuchel's estimanted that we have higher chances of success if we get someone like Saul to cover while a youngster like Gilmour isn't ready to be trusted that much yet.

I think Tuchel might have hugely underestimated Gilmour there, he played well for Scotland vs England for example and could do well vs Liverpool when he was even younger, that's just my opinion of course I don't know better than Tuchel.

Still I have no doubt that Saul is a quality player. In fact I think that fans should raise their eyebrows first and foremost at those that still struggle but that have been a part of the club for some time now. Pulisic is injured again, Chilwell isn't in the mix ever since he got injured as well and right now only Lukaku is delivering offensively speaking.