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Jules Kounde


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Compulsory video. He scores a goal with a header, admittedly unmarked, nice turn at 1:41.  Generally I approve. There is footage in the back half of him competing in the air. He is nuisance value only in the air, clearly not dominant.  On the ground  and on the ball though he is in a different class in this video to our other defenders. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5o5nremox4I

Edited by ozboy
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2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I'm very pessimistic on this transfer 😉 and a realist on how long managers stay with Chelsea.

On this basis we should have never promoted Terry because of his lack of pace.

2 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

To the normal person it would seem insane to trade out a 6'5 athletic centre back for one 6 inches shorter and slower and pay a premium to do that because of passing. 

That type of thinking is why Jose isn't at the top of his game anymore.

If our defenders can't pass well how do you propose we beat the opposition press and build up attacks of our own?

Ofcourse they have to defend well (assuming Kounde can't is ridiculous stereotyping) but ball playing defenders are crucial to the modern game and refusing to adapt to that is why the likes of Jose aren't great managers anymore?

Edited by Argo
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11 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

You're right when you say all the traits of a modern Chelsea signing. This is another where we could get caught looking at the trimmings and not the key function, which is defending.

Truth is he is too short to be a truly dominant CB in England. So many goals are scored from set pieces alone in England. It is a huge negative. 

But much like Kepa we'll hear all sorts of things about vertical leap this and distribution stats that. We should remember how that worked out. We should also remember what happened when we recruited a keeper with the proper physical attributes for the role ie 195cm plus. 

We need to adhere to the basics of centre back recruitment here and pass on this. 

I don’t see how it’s sensible to compare the signing of a keeper with the signing of a center back.

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33 minutes ago, mwblue10 said:

I don’t see how it’s sensible to compare the signing of a keeper with the signing of a center back.

Sorry mwblue I should have clarified. I am using Kepa as an example of why you need to account for physical attributes when recruiting. 

He was a 186cm keeper when most are 195+ At the time there was lots of talk about his passing etc. mitigating any issues in the air. That didn't play out. Not only did we see him struggle against set pieces, his lack of height/reach also meant he had developed an unusual arm swing technique to dive further, which has been a disaster in terms of his ability to react and save. 

There is an old saying in lots of sports that you can't teach size/height so you recruit for it. With Kounde his height is a real risk in a league where set pieces are a real feature of the play of teams lower down the ladder. It's different to Spain in that respect where Barca were able to play 174cm Mascherano at CB for years without issues.  If we wanted a good passing CB who was on the shorter side we could have kept Ake, who also has the advantage of being left footed.

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1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

Sorry mwblue I should have clarified. I am using Kepa as an example of why you need to account for physical attributes when recruiting. 

He was a 186cm keeper when most are 195+ At the time there was lots of talk about his passing etc. mitigating any issues in the air. That didn't play out. Not only did we see him struggle against set pieces, his lack of height/reach also meant he had developed an unusual arm swing technique to dive further, which has been a disaster in terms of his ability to react and save. 

There is an old saying in lots of sports that you can't teach size/height so you recruit for it. With Kounde his height is a real risk in a league where set pieces are a real feature of the play of teams lower down the ladder. It's different to Spain in that respect where Barca were able to play 174cm Mascherano at CB for years without issues.  If we wanted a good passing CB who was on the shorter side we could have kept Ake, who also has the advantage of being left footed.

I agree that you should never discount athletic qualities with recruiting, but Kounde is extremely athletic - speed, explosiveness and jumping abilities are all athletic benchmarks. You cannot teach someone to have more fast-twitch muscle fibres than others, and Kounde is a very explosive athlete. Remember for a moment that Tim Cahill, at the same height, made an absolute mockery of much more aerially-dominant defenders at set-pieces because of his athletic ability. Being tall doesn't automatically make you aerially dominant (David Luiz, anyone?), specifically at set-pieces where you actually have to challenge players with force in the air.

That said, he's more or less the same prototype as Christensen/Rudiger at CB (except probably a bit better on the ball) and Reece James at RWB/RCB (except a little better in the air). I don't understand what he offers to the squad beyond being an excellent rotation option in a 3-atb system, and a potential waste in a 4-atb system. Given than Tuchel is historically the tinkeriest of tinkermen, it makes no sense to lock us into a single formation.

Edited by SydneyChelsea
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Good luck trying to create something against us when Jules is running at you and Kante is right behind you!

He's one of the best younger defenders that anyone can think of and Sevilla has been known for years now as a tough team to beat in Europe, he was 20-21 years old when Sevilla knocked out Wolves and Man United and won the Europa League with him in the starting lineup in all of those big games including the final.

This kid walks into our starting lineup with T.Silva in a back 4 formation, as a pure defender he's really good and he isn't shy to go into any duel with anyone that wants to take him on and on top of that I can openly say that very few CBs can run with the ball as good as he does.

The last that I'll say is that he's really a top athlete, stat-wise you won't find a player in La Liga with more headed clearances in his age group U23 than him so his height doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

 

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This deal seems to be in some sort of mud now. Reports (not Fabrizio) are saying Zouma might be going to West Ham. If so we lose that bargaining chip. Same reports say we are offering Emerson in stead. I would believe that is the end of that deal then...Naturally we can always just pay up. They are saying it could be up to 70-80m Euros..... 

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6 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

I agree that you should never discount athletic qualities with recruiting, but Kounde is extremely athletic - speed, explosiveness and jumping abilities are all athletic benchmarks. You cannot teach someone to have more fast-twitch muscle fibres than others, and Kounde is a very explosive athlete. Remember for a moment that Tim Cahill, at the same height, made an absolute mockery of much more aerially-dominant defenders at set-pieces because of his athletic ability. Being tall doesn't automatically make you aerially dominant (David Luiz, anyone?), specifically at set-pieces where you actually have to challenge players with force in the air.

That said, he's more or less the same prototype as Christensen/Rudiger at CB (except probably a bit better on the ball) and Reece James at RWB/RCB (except a little better in the air). I don't understand what he offers to the squad beyond being an excellent rotation option in a 3-atb system, and a potential waste in a 4-atb system. Given than Tuchel is historically the tinkeriest of tinkermen, it makes no sense to lock us into a single formation.

Can he play dm? 

Edited by Bob stark
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7 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Good luck trying to create something against us when Jules is running at you and Kante is right behind you!

He's one of the best younger defenders that anyone can think of and Sevilla has been known for years now as a tough team to beat in Europe, he was 20-21 years old when Sevilla knocked out Wolves and Man United and won the Europa League with him in the starting lineup in all of those big games including the final.

This kid walks into our starting lineup with T.Silva in a back 4 formation, as a pure defender he's really good and he isn't shy to go into any duel with anyone that wants to take him on and on top of that I can openly say that very few CBs can run with the ball as good as he does.

The last that I'll say is that he's really a top athlete, stat-wise you won't find a player in La Liga with more headed clearances in his age group U23 than him so his height doesn't seem to be an issue at all.

 

“It’s surprising, a lot of coaches are wondering about my height. It is surprising that I can be good in central defense while measuring 1.81 m. [And] I feel targeted [by the opposition] but that, in fact, gives me additional motivation to know that my size will make them think that they are going to be able to step on me because I am not 1.90 m tall. [Thus] I win more headed duels than Sergio Ramos because the opponents don’t dare play long on Ramos. 

“They must say to themselves: ‘It’s Jules Koundé, he is not tall, we are going to beat him in the air’. [So] I play a lot more aerial duels than the others. They say to themselves that it will be easier against Koundé, and that motivates me. And it’s a part of my game that I’m working on because I know I’m going to be targeted [and] yes, if I face a striker of 1.90m who has the ability to jump high, it will necessarily be more complicated. So, I prepare myself by working to be ready on match day.”

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2 hours ago, Bob stark said:

Can he play dm? 

Probably.

If anything, it's worthwhile to remember that one point Azpilicueta was probably the best 1 v 1 defender in the entire world. I think the club probably see a similar set of skills/potential in Kounde and in combination with Reece James would make a hell of a defensive right-hand side in either a back three or four.

 

Interestingly, here is an article from 2020 that talks about Kounde in a different light, and is effusive about his all around defensive game rather than his attacking flair.

 

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/player-analysis-jules-kounde/

Edited by SydneyChelsea
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7 hours ago, evissy said:

This deal seems to be in some sort of mud now. Reports (not Fabrizio) are saying Zouma might be going to West Ham. If so we lose that bargaining chip. Same reports say we are offering Emerson in stead. I would believe that is the end of that deal then...Naturally we can always just pay up. They are saying it could be up to 70-80m Euros..... 

I don't believe it will be done quickly. There appears to be a large difference in how we and Sevilla value both Zouma and Kounde. I expect it goes late in to the window, if at all. It seems any of our targets get a "Chelsea premium" put on them and our sales are expected at large discount.

Casing points on the former, Rice 100mill, Kounde 80mill, Haaland 150mill. 

On the latter Emerson at half price per Napoli's interest.

Servilla sold the talented Gil for a mere 25mill plus the sh*tty Lamela. Yet when we want a player the price is jacked up.

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Further to my point. We have all heard how Kounde turned down Spurs, and enjoyed the laugh about him waiting for a bigger club.

He only got the chance because Sevilla accepted an offer, and rumour has it that is was just 55mill and no player in exchange.

We come along price goes up 25mill.

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20 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Probably.

If anything, it's worthwhile to remember that one point Azpilicueta was probably the best 1 v 1 defender in the entire world. I think the club probably see a similar set of skills/potential in Kounde and in combination with Reece James would make a hell of a defensive right-hand side in either a back three or four.

 

Interestingly, here is an article from 2020 that talks about Kounde in a different light, and is effusive about his all around defensive game rather than his attacking flair.

 

https://breakingthelines.com/player-analysis/player-analysis-jules-kounde/

He looks like a very good cb but a bit short. 

Honestly, it will probably a good signing and a minor improvement. RCB is clearly not one of our weaknesses. 

The biggest question is can he play in back 4 because eventually Tuchel will get sacked we won't play back 3.

 

 

 

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On 30/07/2021 at 12:51, SydneyChelsea said:

I agree that you should never discount athletic qualities with recruiting, but Kounde is extremely athletic - speed, explosiveness and jumping abilities are all athletic benchmarks. You cannot teach someone to have more fast-twitch muscle fibres than others, and Kounde is a very explosive athlete. Remember for a moment that Tim Cahill, at the same height, made an absolute mockery of much more aerially-dominant defenders at set-pieces because of his athletic ability. Being tall doesn't automatically make you aerially dominant (David Luiz, anyone?), specifically at set-pieces where you actually have to challenge players with force in the air.

That said, he's more or less the same prototype as Christensen/Rudiger at CB (except probably a bit better on the ball) and Reece James at RWB/RCB (except a little better in the air). I don't understand what he offers to the squad beyond being an excellent rotation option in a 3-atb system, and a potential waste in a 4-atb system. Given than Tuchel is historically the tinkeriest of tinkermen, it makes no sense to lock us into a single formation.

All fair points. I'd consider Cahill the exception to the rule rather than the player than proves the rule wrong. 

Naturally there are other factors in being a great aerial defender but height is a key one. For me it makes little sense taking a risk like that with limited transfer funds.

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It’s only really set pieces where height might be an issue. In the premiership strikers are getting shorter as well as wingers being more inverted so don’t whip crosses in anymore. From what I’ve seen of Kounde he’s got great anticipation and reading of the game and whilst not tall he has a great leap. Football is played a lot more on the ground these days and he’s very good at defending. Whilst I haven’t seen loads of him, he went to the euros over upamacano and Liverpool’s new signing. 
 

my final point is height in cbs isn’t all that matters Carvalho wasn’t dominant aerially (6”0) but strikers knew they weren’t going to get an easy day against him. Cannavaro was 5”9, Puyol was 5”10, Sergio Ramos is 6”0, Desailly was 6”0 I know not all of them didn’t play in England but the quality isn’t in doubt 

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This looks to be pretty much done. Zouma or no Zouma... But Zouma will probably go anyway. Maybe WHU as he wouldn't have to move house. At WHU he would be their main CB I think. Not a bad end result for him either I would think. 

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Agreed. If Romano says so, it is so. Nothing like a reliable source. And I think it will turn out well. Personally think Chelsea is building a top team. Tuchel is a good manager, the players are young, and they now have proved to themselves they can win a trophy.  I am excited to see Kounde in Blue. 

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On 29/07/2021 at 09:13, Spiller86 said:

You're right when you say all the traits of a modern Chelsea signing. This is another where we could get caught looking at the trimmings and not the key function, which is defending.

Truth is he is too short to be a truly dominant CB in England. So many goals are scored from set pieces alone in England. It is a huge negative. 

But much like Kepa we'll hear all sorts of things about vertical leap this and distribution stats that. We should remember how that worked out. We should also remember what happened when we recruited a keeper with the proper physical attributes for the role ie 195cm plus. 

We need to adhere to the basics of centre back recruitment here and pass on this. 

Completely fair points.  Carvalho wasn't the tallest either, but never seemed to hold him back.  I hear you though.

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1 hour ago, ozboy said:

Agreed. If Romano says so, it is so. Nothing like a reliable source. And I think it will turn out well. Personally think Chelsea is building a top team. Tuchel is a good manager, the players are young, and they now have proved to themselves they can win a trophy.  I am excited to see Kounde in Blue. 

Aye like he said Gini was joining Barca all the way till he joined PSG.

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He is pretty reliable. You have to understand he couldn't have any way of knowing everything as he is not either of the parties making the deal. So far he is the most reliable source for any deal concerning Chelsea. He has not promised Kounde is a Chelsea player. If the two clubs can't see eye to eye the deal is off. So maybe you need to learn to read the tweets and media with a bit more intellect. 

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On 29/07/2021 at 14:13, Spiller86 said:

You're right when you say all the traits of a modern Chelsea signing. This is another where we could get caught looking at the trimmings and not the key function, which is defending.

Truth is he is too short to be a truly dominant CB in England. So many goals are scored from set pieces alone in England. It is a huge negative. 

But much like Kepa we'll hear all sorts of things about vertical leap this and distribution stats that. We should remember how that worked out. We should also remember what happened when we recruited a keeper with the proper physical attributes for the role ie 195cm plus. 

We need to adhere to the basics of centre back recruitment here and pass on this. 

I think you are going a bit over the top with his height, he is 5'10/5'11, which an inch or 2 smaller than Gallas and Carvalho. Both of those were part of the best defence the premier league has seen, and also played in an era where the majority of teams played long balls to big number 9's. 

How many teams play like that now, and how many even play with a big physical target man? DCL, Kane, Woods, Jimenez, Toney, anyone else? 

Kounde has a great leap aswell, great on the ball, strong, and quick. 

To write him off because of his height, saying he cant dominate here, I find strange. He is actually an inch taller than Baresi and Cannavaro, who both were world class in a more physical era. 

Lets see how he gets on. Very highly rated, and chased by a number of big English sides that obviously dont see his height as an issue either. 

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