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Jules Kounde


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The only thing that would worry me would be the overall height of the team if him and Silva were in a back 4 together. Our full backs aren’t that tall. Midfield are average height to very small in Kante’s case and up top only Havertz is over 6 foot really. I’m sure Tommy Tactics could think of a plan

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All fair points to be made re the height argument. I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I'd note that in our indicative squad (if Abraham and Zouma are sold as seems likely) we're likely to only have four outfield players above 6ft tall (Havertz, Rudiger, Christensen - Silva is right on 6ft). 

Jose always insisted in our peak on having at least four players in the starting team above 6ft for defensive set pieces (part of why Gallas regularly played left/right back under Jose)

 This signing doesn't help us in that regard. It also taps into a broadening concern of mine about the Arsenalification of Chelsea where we prioritise neat technical players (good passing) over the physical characteristics leading to us being at risk of being bullied in the Premier League (West Brom last year springs to mind). This isn't the right call in my mind and I hope we decide to look elsewhere or at least compensate with some bigger players in other positions.

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1 hour ago, Spiller86 said:

It also taps into a broadening concern of mine about the Arsenalification of Chelsea where we prioritise neat technical players (good passing) over the physical characteristics leading to us being at risk of being bullied in the Premier League (West Brom last year springs to mind). This isn't the right call in my mind and I hope we decide to look elsewhere or at least compensate with some bigger players in other positions.

Seriously, Arsenalification... How is that even a theory when we just won the CL again?

I wonder if you have ever watched him play, not being taller doesn't automatically mean that he's less physical.

Here he's 21 y/o in a sandwich and still tried to score with a header against Wolves:

 

Here he's stopping Messi from scoring from a free kick by jumping:

A pure defender like him that is comfortable being at any part of the pitch in order to tackle, close down or pass the ball is much better than your standard 6foot4 CB that is afraid to leave his area around the box and that would be outside of his depth if he needs to stop anyone that has pace.

 

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3 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

All fair points to be made re the height argument. I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I'd note that in our indicative squad (if Abraham and Zouma are sold as seems likely) we're likely to only have four outfield players above 6ft tall (Havertz, Rudiger, Christensen - Silva is right on 6ft). 

Jose always insisted in our peak on having at least four players in the starting team above 6ft for defensive set pieces (part of why Gallas regularly played left/right back under Jose)

 This signing doesn't help us in that regard. It also taps into a broadening concern of mine about the Arsenalification of Chelsea where we prioritise neat technical players (good passing) over the physical characteristics leading to us being at risk of being bullied in the Premier League (West Brom last year springs to mind). This isn't the right call in my mind and I hope we decide to look elsewhere or at least compensate with some bigger players in other positions.

In a broader picture this height issue is really an issue. Every manager knows that. You need some height in set play defending. Especially in England. 

However if Tuchel has sanctioned the buy I wouldn't be too bothered about it. We can still field Havertz, Silva, Alonso and Rudiger in a game where height might be a factor. 

In terms of Kounde I would think his ball playing ability far exceeds his lack of height in terms of pros and cons. If you think about how we build from the back I would think us getting successfully under the pressure is a bigger plus than 10 centimeters less height in set piece play. 

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5 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

All fair points to be made re the height argument. I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I'd note that in our indicative squad (if Abraham and Zouma are sold as seems likely) we're likely to only have four outfield players above 6ft tall (Havertz, Rudiger, Christensen - Silva is right on 6ft). 

Jose always insisted in our peak on having at least four players in the starting team above 6ft for defensive set pieces (part of why Gallas regularly played left/right back under Jose)

 This signing doesn't help us in that regard. It also taps into a broadening concern of mine about the Arsenalification of Chelsea where we prioritise neat technical players (good passing) over the physical characteristics leading to us being at risk of being bullied in the Premier League (West Brom last year springs to mind). This isn't the right call in my mind and I hope we decide to look elsewhere or at least compensate with some bigger players in other positions.

Height is a factor only when the person in question actually knows how to use it. Tammy is tall but it's barely a good quality of his.

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6 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

All fair points to be made re the height argument. I am of course happy to be proven wrong, but I'd note that in our indicative squad (if Abraham and Zouma are sold as seems likely) we're likely to only have four outfield players above 6ft tall (Havertz, Rudiger, Christensen - Silva is right on 6ft). 

Jose always insisted in our peak on having at least four players in the starting team above 6ft for defensive set pieces (part of why Gallas regularly played left/right back under Jose)

 This signing doesn't help us in that regard. It also taps into a broadening concern of mine about the Arsenalification of Chelsea where we prioritise neat technical players (good passing) over the physical characteristics leading to us being at risk of being bullied in the Premier League (West Brom last year springs to mind). This isn't the right call in my mind and I hope we decide to look elsewhere or at least compensate with some bigger players in other positions.

Football has moved on from your 6ft+ target men though, you don’t see an Andy Carroll or Peter Crouch type player thriving in the league anymore. 

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8 hours ago, Gol15 said:

Seriously, Arsenalification... 

Arsenalification has nothing to do with the CL. It's the prioritisation of player with technical skills over other aspects. Picking keepers and defenders because they can pass rather than do the fundamentals required in their position.

I've been saying this since Sarri became manager. It keeps biting us in the Premier League and will stop us from being genuine title contenders if it isn't addressed. 

Not as much of an issue in Europe, where the game is different, less physical with more free kicks. 

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41 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Arsenalification has nothing to do with the CL. It's the prioritisation of player with technical skills over other aspects. Picking keepers and defenders because they can pass rather than do the fundamentals required in their position.

I've been saying this since Sarri became manager. It keeps biting us in the Premier League and will stop us from being genuine title contenders if it isn't addressed. 

Not as much of an issue in Europe, where the game is different, less physical with more free kicks. 

I'm just saying that you shouldn't automatically assume that a player isn't good enough physically just because he knows how to play with the ball or because he's not as tall as you would have hoped. 

Apparently the one bigger French signing which didn't work out for us was Bakayoko, a player that had a great amount of tackles per 90' prior and that is 6'2-6'3... He couldn't pass the ball nor hold on to it, too slow on the ball for the PL. It didn't matter that he's strong and tall.

In general I think that the players we bought from Arsenal in recent times e.g. Giroud, Fabregas have worked out for us... And we won 2 European titles against our PL rivals.

 

Edited by Gol15
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47 minutes ago, Spiller86 said:

Arsenalification has nothing to do with the CL. It's the prioritisation of player with technical skills over other aspects. Picking keepers and defenders because they can pass rather than do the fundamentals required in their position.

I've been saying this since Sarri became manager. It keeps biting us in the Premier League and will stop us from being genuine title contenders if it isn't addressed. 

Not as much of an issue in Europe, where the game is different, less physical with more free kicks. 

Curious if you can provide specific examples of when size/height has bitten Chelsea in the PL? I don’t think size and technical ability are a direct correlation of each other.

I think it’s more about the size of the fight in the dog rather than the dog in the fight. Kante‘s size mattered, until it didn’t. Silva’s height was a concern, until it wasn’t. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against having players that are tall and physical. But they have to be good too. 
 

Kounde is being dragged by a number of people, but it’s his physical gifts, athleticism and physicality, that you could argue are his most impressive attributes.

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Big lad that Denis Wise was wasn’t he?   Its true that ballack and lampard and Essien and drogbas were good athletes. Kova;s hardly a light weight  though then Rudigier, Mendy , Kai. 

a winning team does generally need a physical side to them. just don’t see that Kounde wouldn’t fit that bill. We already discussed Puyol. 
 

the domination is in the character and athletic is more than muscle, it’s speed and agility and endurance. Ask the Kante twins. 

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Personally think his height is less of an issue when we have a tall keeper like Mendy.

As Zouma wants to stay in the UK it will be interesting to see how high we go to get him.

I would hope we get the deal done even if we have to pay more if TT wants him, after all no-one else yet on the horizon.

 

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On 31/07/2021 at 17:32, chiefBlueCFC said:

Like would it be nice if he was 6’4”? Yeah of course but height doesn’t mean quality defending. Really think the height thing is being overblown

Yes mostly but for set pieces you need height 

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4 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

If Tuchel prefers him over Zouma, I will leave it to that. Height is important, but skills and defensive positioning made up for the lack of height easily.

These points are the crux of it.

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7 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

If Tuchel prefers him over Zouma, I will leave it to that. Height is important, but skills and defensive positioning made up for the lack of height easily.

Technique trumps all in this modern game, the obsession with physicality first is so outdated. It's the main reason why we fell into an extended period so far off the title pace and got beaten in the UCL systematically for so long, i remember Roma absolutely played us off the park and they were far from an elite side, 10 man PSG absolutely bossed us too. We got away with it domestically for a few years (not without warning signs especially in big games) but in Europe we were in that era (2012-2018) always outplayed and chasing shadows against any opponent of note, clever pressing sides with quality midfielders were the absolute death of us. 

It's no coincidence that since we've changed our profile of transfer target to more technically gifted players (adopting a more modern style in the process) we won the UCL at the second time of asking.

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8 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

If Tuchel prefers him over Zouma, I will leave it to that. Height is important, but skills and defensive positioning made up for the lack of height easily.

Nah height is important especially against set pieces. Azpilicueta is pretty good in the air for his height but when he was being asked to mark Soucek, that 15 cm different in height really showed.

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17 minutes ago, Argo said:

Technique trumps all in this modern game, the obsession with physicality first is so outdated. It's the main reason why we fell into an extended period so far off the title pace and got beaten in the UCL systematically for so long, i remember Roma absolutely played us off the park and they were far from an elite side, 10 man PSG absolutely bossed us too. We got away with it domestically for a few years (not without warning signs especially in big games) but in Europe we were in that era (2012-2018) always outplayed and chasing shadows against any opponent of note, clever pressing sides with quality midfielders were the absolute death of us. 

It's no coincidence that since we've changed our profile of transfer target to more technically gifted players (adopting a more modern style in the process) we won the UCL at the second time of asking.

Hmm Liverpool managed to compete with city with much smaller budget and they are not exactly a technical side. 

 

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7 minutes ago, Argo said:

Technique trumps all in this modern game, the obsession with physicality first is so outdated. It's the main reason why we fell into an extended period so far off the title pace and got beaten in the UCL systematically for so long, i remember Roma absolutely played us off the park and they were far from an elite side, 10 man PSG absolutely bossed us too. We got away with it domestically for a few years (not without warning signs especially in big games) but in Europe we were in that era (2012-2018) always outplayed and chasing shadows against any opponent of note, clever pressing sides with quality midfielders were the absolute death of us. 

It's no coincidence that since we've changed our profile of transfer target to more technically gifted players (adopting a more modern style in the process) we won the UCL at the second time of asking.

You are probably right in this analysis. What is also apparent, managers who play this football we now play didn't really exist in that era, successful ones anyway. In prime Pep years you didn't have Klopp, Tuchel, Pocchettino, Nagelsmann, Flick and so on plus player profiles were a bit different. Now everybody plays from the back, has a high press. What I am saying is that wasn't a trend even 5 years back. But I agree we got into it a bit too late. I am thinking 2012 we tried it with our old players managed by Andre Villas-Boas. He implemented the high line anyway. Not sure about the pressing. His problem was our old guard who he couldn't get on board. JT was probably thinking this is everything against José taught us and made us invincible. I remember Terry especially looking like a fool playing the high line. 

Personally I have never been a fan of possession based football. Something Ajax did in the nineties, Barcelona then took with them under Cruyff and the managers followed by his tenure (Rijkaard, Pep). I understand it is successful if you make it right. But in the early days it completely killed the joy out of football matches. The other guy just held on the ball and passed it around the opposition box. 

This era Chelsea Man City games are beautiful. Absolutely. Both sides with similar approach in high octane games. Football cannot be much better than this. 

Our problem now under TT is the games where the opponent sits deep and we just cannot kill them off without a top class finisher. 

Maybe a bit off topic. Sorry. 

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12 minutes ago, evissy said:

This era Chelsea Man City games are beautiful. Absolutely. Both sides with similar approach in high octane games. Football cannot be much better than this. 

 

Are you being sarcastic?

You don't like slow heavy possession football yet you said you enjoy the way we and city play

🤔🤔

 

Edited by Bob stark
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20 minutes ago, Bob stark said:

Hmm Liverpool managed to compete with city with much smaller budget and they are not exactly a technical side. 

I disagree, maybe not so much in CM but the two most crucial players to make their system work was Trent and Firmino (the latter effectively a 4th midfielder in the build up anyway), two very highly technical players.

And it says a lot that despite their success of 18-20 Klopp still felt he needed a midfielder in the mould of Thiago Alcantara to further evolve.

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On 30/07/2021 at 15:48, axman2526 said:

Further to my point. We have all heard how Kounde turned down Spurs, and enjoyed the laugh about him waiting for a bigger club.

He only got the chance because Sevilla accepted an offer, and rumour has it that is was just 55mill and no player in exchange.

We come along price goes up 25mill.

This is ridiculous that Sevilla wants 80m Euros now for Kounde. He is a CB and not Lukaku or Haaland. Chelsea should stop negotations.

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1 minute ago, TheGermanOne said:

This is ridiculous that Sevilla wants 80m Euros now for Kounde. He is a CB and not Lukaku or Haaland. Chelsea should stop negotiations.

55 m should be the limit.

Edited by TheGermanOne
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18 minutes ago, TheGermanOne said:

55 m should be the limit.

Thats basically his current value but he's only 22 years old. Sevilla has a lot to lose so might as well get the most out, reminds of the Van Dijk transfer to Liverpool.

 

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