In honour of those that offered their lives so we have ours

[loz]

To those who have fallen, those that survived and all those who suffered. They should never be forgotten and always be honoured.

[Gem]

Well said Loz, as Rupert Brooke wrote 'If I should die, think only this of me: That there's some corner of a foreign field, That is for ever England.' - what all these men and women go through and what their mindset must be is nothing short of heroic.

I just wish every man and woman who were deemed 'cowards' because they killed theirselves during conflict, should get a pardon from the Government NOW. Its their propaganda that made the majority sign up, the least they can do is give these brave people an honourable death, because they sure didn't care what happened to them when they were living.

[i know Rememberence Day is more than just about WW1, but for me it has the most issues that hasn't been addressed, even more than the war in the middle east].

[Scott]

They made the greatest sacrifice.

[Lofty]

Good to see that the minute's silence was impeccably observed

[PeteAshton]

anyone see the program about wilfred owen on sunday night? Jeremy Paxman presented it. I have to say, ashamedly, that i'd never heard of him or his work, but what an incredible man and what moving words he produced.

[loz]

I didn't see it Pete and really wanted to - if ny any small chance anyone taped it I would really like to get a copy of it

[quizgod]

I missed it as well, and forgot to set the video, so if anyone can provide a copy, i would really appreciate it.

I know Wilfred Owen was killed a week before armsitice was declared.

His poetry is very moving, as is all the war poets, they showed the futility of war and seemed to express how the soldier felt.

To be honest, i am not sure if i could have gone 'over the top'.

If you want to read a good book, then read the biography of Harry Patch, he is now 109, was wounded at paschendale.

Saw him being interviewed at the weekend, very moving.

[Gem]

anyone see the program about wilfred owen on sunday night? Jeremy Paxman presented it. I have to say, ashamedly, that i'd never heard of him or his work, but what an incredible man and what moving words he produced.

Missed the program but studied Wilfred Owen for A-Level. Got books and books of his work and biographys... wonderful poet.

[mad_mac]

I had family in both wars, and thankfully they all came home ( a rarity I know!). However, not all of them unscathed. One of my dad's uncles lied abut his age so he could join the Desert Rats. HE came home OK, but drank pretty heavily thereafter until he died of a heart attack. MY Great grand father was in the tank Batallion and had both his legs blown off from the knee down. Obviously, life was a struggle for him after that as well.

I know this doesn't compare with those who died, but I also don't feel that you have to have died to become a hero. Thanks to all

Scott

[Kev123]

Anyone who fought in that war is a hero as far as I'm concerned. Same goes for Iraq right now. Anyone who is willing to fight so the rest of their country can live in freedom is a hero, just most people living their quiet safe lives at home don't appreciate it, because they have no clue what it's like out there, or what these guys went through/go through for their country and families. Rant over

[loz]

Couldn't agree more Scott which is why I said those who have died, survived and suffered. When I was a kid I had a paper round and one bloke I delivered to was a man called Joe, I never saw him n the two years I delivered his paper, he just used to stick a £1 note in an unused out pipe for me to pick up every week. It was only two years later I found out that my friend's Dad was one of very few people who ever saw him as he used to go in once a week to check on him.

Turns out he was a Jewish POW and although I have no idea the specifics of what happened to him and what he saw all I knew was that 40 odd years after the end of WWII (remember this was mid 80s) he still couldn't come out of his house and face the outside world.

[quizgod]

I found out in researching my family tree, papers which should my Grandfather(mum's dad), was in WW I in the RAF and lied about his age, and then was in the Army in WW2, being rescued from Dunkirk and then landing in Normandy.

I saw his demob papers from the RAF in 1920, and Army in 1947.

Spoke to my mum about this and she told me she did not think this was important to tell me as it happened a long time ago.

I vaguely recollect my grandfather as hed died when i was about 7, and he seemed to be introvert man, but i guess he had been through in both World Wars would have had some affect.

[Paul Seery]

They made the greatest sacrifice.

They very much did. Never forget.....

[PeteAshton]

I found out in researching my family tree, papers which should my Grandfather(mum's dad), was in WW I in the RAF and lied about his age, and then was in the Army in WW2, being rescued from Dunkirk and then landing in Normandy.

I saw his demob papers from the RAF in 1920, and Army in 1947.

Spoke to my mum about this and she told me she did not think this was important to tell me as it happened a long time ago.

I vaguely recollect my grandfather as hed died when i was about 7, and he seemed to be introvert man, but i guess he had been through in both World Wars would have had some affect.

not wanting to deflect the thread too much but how did you get on with your family tree, did you find it unbearably hard? I want to look into my fiancee's as a wedding present to her, but i dont know where to start. ta.

[quizgod]

Hi Pete,

Not that difficult, as long as you get the right information.

Please either PM or email me, will try to point you in the right direction.

Also would be willing to help you with the tree if you need it.

[Kev123]

They made the greatest sacrifice.

They very much did. Never forget.....

Actually realistically and statistically speaking, it was the Russians who bore the full brunt of those wars. They fought tooth and nail for every piece of ground (something the french could learn about) and never gave up. Almost everybody underestimates their contribution however as it was when America joined that the tide turned. But the war would have been over by this time if Russia had capitulated, instead they fought on, even to the point of using mounted cavalry against tanks. Gotta hand it to them

[loz]

When I covered WWI back in secondary school my history teacher (fortunately) had a real obsession with telling the Russian side of things. It is staggering quite how much they suffered and yet quite how little recognition they often get for the role they played.

[Lofty]

On the subject of what the Russians went through, besides from the better documented episodes such as the sieges of Stalingrad and Leningrad this is possibly the greatest anti-war film of all time:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Come-See-Alexei-Kr...95248199&sr=1-1

Amazon Synopsis:

Elem Klimov's stunning COME AND SEE is a relentlessly brutal condemnation of war hidden in the guise of a surrealistic coming-of-age nightmare. A physically and emotionally draining viewing experience, the film follows Florya (played brilliantly by Alexei Kravchenko), a 12-year-old boy living in 1943 Byelorussia. When he digs up an abandoned gun, Florya gleefully signs up with the Russian Army, looking forward to life as a soldier. But that fantasy rapidly deteriorates when the reality of the situation confronts him head-on. Abandoned by his fellow comrades, he stumbles across the weeping Glasha (Olga Mironova), a pretty teenager who has also been left behind. Together, the pair returns to Florya's village only to discover that everyone has been slaughtered Florya's mother and younger sisters included. The journey continues as Florya embarks on a mission to find food for the stranded inhabitants of a neighbouring village. He eventually lands in the middle of another German massacre, where the animalistic Nazis stuff the Russians into a barn and torch it, obliterating Florya's innocence completely. Klimov's unflinching masterpiece is all the more affecting because of the beauty of its imagery. Working on a variety of levels, COME AND SEE speaks both as personal statement and broad metaphor, making it a timeless, unforgettable achievement.

[loz]

Lofty Lofty Lofty

You have just brought back hideous memories for me!! I had just about managed to block out the images from that film from my mind. It is phenominally brutal. I don't think I have ever actually watched a film that left me so mentally exhausted at the end. Just a little trivia on it. Klimov never made another film after it saying that he has lost all interest in making films and that he had done everything he ever wanted to (or words to that effect). I don't think he ever really fully explained why he felt that way but the general consensus was that he had managed to pour so much emotion into that film that he no longer felt the need to create another one.

[Scott]

Sad to see that more than half of all WWII deaths were civilians. Note the high Chinese civilian death rate thanks to Mr. Tojo.

[Kev123]

On the subject of what the Russians went through, besides from the better documented episodes such as the sieges of Stalingrad and Leningrad this is possibly the greatest anti-war film of all time:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Come-See-Alexei-Kr...95248199&sr=1-1

Amazon Synopsis:

Elem Klimov's stunning COME AND SEE is a relentlessly brutal condemnation of war hidden in the guise of a surrealistic coming-of-age nightmare. A physically and emotionally draining viewing experience, the film follows Florya (played brilliantly by Alexei Kravchenko), a 12-year-old boy living in 1943 Byelorussia. When he digs up an abandoned gun, Florya gleefully signs up with the Russian Army, looking forward to life as a soldier. But that fantasy rapidly deteriorates when the reality of the situation confronts him head-on. Abandoned by his fellow comrades, he stumbles across the weeping Glasha (Olga Mironova), a pretty teenager who has also been left behind. Together, the pair returns to Florya's village only to discover that everyone has been slaughtered Florya's mother and younger sisters included. The journey continues as Florya embarks on a mission to find food for the stranded inhabitants of a neighbouring village. He eventually lands in the middle of another German massacre, where the animalistic Nazis stuff the Russians into a barn and torch it, obliterating Florya's innocence completely. Klimov's unflinching masterpiece is all the more affecting because of the beauty of its imagery. Working on a variety of levels, COME AND SEE speaks both as personal statement and broad metaphor, making it a timeless, unforgettable achievement.

Thanks Lofty, I love any movies to do with history, going to get this one. Another great movie, although more Hollywood blockbuster type is Enemy At the Gates. Its based on a true story of a sniper in the Russian army during the battle for Stalingrad.

http://www.amazon.co.uk/Enemy-Gates-Jud ... 536&sr=1-1

[Kev123]

Sad to see that more than half of all WWII deaths were civilians. Note the high Chinese civilian death rate thanks to Mr. Tojo.

Another more telling statistic is that 80 percent of German casualties in WW2, were on the Russian front. They gave just as good as they got

[Englishman]

Actually realistically and statistically speaking, it was the Russians who bore the full brunt of those wars. They fought tooth and nail for every piece of ground (something the french could learn about) and never gave up. Almost everybody underestimates their contribution however as it was when America joined that the tide turned. But the war would have been over by this time if Russia had capitulated, instead they fought on, even to the point of using mounted cavalry against tanks. Gotta hand it to them

Well put. Even Churchill said it was the Russians who tore the guts out of Nazi Germany. I've read a lot about the Soviet aspect of the war, and I still can't figure out how they managed to survive. The German commanders could actually see the spire of the Kremlin in their binoculars, that's how close they were to Moscow. Another statistic worth remembering (I'm not sure of the exact figures but the ratio is right), is when the Allies landed at Normandy they were facing around 15 German divisions. For the past three years the Russians had been fighting around 80 German divisions. It was in the East that the Germans lost the war. By the time of D-Day, their chance of winning had already gone. That's not to demean the efforts of the other allies, because victory really was a joint effort, but we owe a huge huge debt to the Russians.

The thing about Remembrance Day is that virtually everyone is linked to it. My great-grandfather was killed when Plymouth was bombed early in the war; ironically he was a veteran of the first war and only there by chance. Yet for all the sacrifices that soldiers make, they get treated like cr*p afterwards. Not by ordinary people but by the Government. Those with psychological and physical injuries get shunted away and ignored, they get crappy pensions, no assistance. And Blair was never once in attendance when the coffins were coming home from Iraq. Sorry, rant over.

[Maksimov]

According to those stats, Finland suffered no casualties during World War II.

[undertow]

It was in the East that the Germans lost the war. By the time of D-Day, their chance of winning had already gone. That's not to demean the efforts of the other allies, because victory really was a joint effort, but we owe a huge huge debt to the Russians.

more exactly it was the russian winter. the same thing that halted napoleon too.

and just for the record, i sure don't feel that i owe anything to the russians. that 40 years of communism after they liberated the country was enough of them.