Chelsea vs Villa Game Thread

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As I was watching the game yesterday and, in particular, Young and Abgonlahor wreaking havoc on the flanks I actually thought back to how well Duff used to support the full backs. That was definitely missing from our game yesterday. Ferreira and Cole were rarely protected with both Villa wide men having plenty of time and space to build up a head of steam before they got to the full backs.

I'm not sure if the diamond would have restricted that other than maybe Joe and Sheva closing down the full backs and thus making it harder for them to release the wingers.

 
I felt Joe Cole did offer a measure of defensive protection down the right flank Loz. Ferreria simply had a nightmare.

Kalou was a different story in front of Cashley. He gave us nothing. Either going forwards or backwards.

It's generally accepted that the best way to counter pace is with ........................... pace. Unfortunately, apart from Cashley, we don't have it. Therefore we were always likely to encounter problems tracking Young and Agbonlahor. Our best tactic was to work our hardest to limit the supply to them and the space they had to operate in. Putting bodies out wide and Pressing the full-backs early would have helped.

On the question of pace and width, (though in reality I know it won't happen, as the respective clubs would be loathe to sell to us), a bid for any of Lennon/Agbonlahor/Young would be welcomed by me. It would at least indicate Grant knows we have to inject some pace and directness into our game. On top of that it would also be nice to see Scott Sinclair given some playing time in the easier games.

 
The arguments will carry on for ever between the Jose diehards and the people who realise he's gone and we have to hope the new bloke gets it right and we see some improvement,

Its not that anyone is disrespecting Jose or what he achieved here that fuels the debate it seems more the unfair comparisons of the new manager to the old,

I am always here saying give Grant time and sometimes I even read my own posts and think I have come across as dissing Mourinho, but in reality sometimes its the only way to get a point across and is really not meant as detrimental to him at all.

Loz has quoted fair comparisons where things were not spot on in Joses reign but there is always a reason other than it being manager/tactics substitutions or whatever why the game in question can't be compared to a game with the same sort of outcome under Grant,

Jose in his Eggs and Omelette speech basically said the players are not good enough, well Grant has still got the same players with injuries and suspensions as Jose suffered in his time, both managers have struggled in those situations and the common denominator here?

when we have not got a fully fit Drogba, Terry, Cech we struggle.

Regardless of who can see changes under Grant (hand up) and who cant, we are all hoping the team do well.

we are going to have Grant in charge for a while so lets see what he does in the window and hope we get all our players fit for a decent challenge in the CL.

We are only a point further from the leaders and although without riccy for three games its a scarey time we could still be close by the time the ACN is over and then with a decent addition or two who knows.

 
My take on it is that the loss to Villa was fundamentally down to players and the draw today wa fundamentally down to players - what is absurd is the idea that the loss to Villa was players fault and the draw was Grant's fault.As for even attempting to excuse the Villa loss on the grounds of players missing I will counter that with Drogba, Terry and Malouda. Pretty comparable would you not say?

People probably think I am totally anti Jose whe the truth is far from that - what I am trying to do is consider why we are where we are and I think it is staggering that some people think Jose is entirely free of any blame for the quality of the current squad and the football it plays.
Loz, you are so far off beam on this one its not true!

Nobody is saying that Jose didn't have any faults or that the team never under performed when he was in charge. I am saying thought that conceding 4 goals at home is a) a disaster and :drinkdrunk: down to the McClaren like approach of our current manager.

Let's examine the facts.

Cech has played in the last 3 games even though he is clearly not fit. This is a call the manager made - no doubt with input from the player and the medical staff - but still his call. In hindsight it has been the wrong decision.

In yesterday's match he adopted a different formation that we have only used once or twice before. Nothing wrong with that. I have suggested it as a formation myself. But it clearly wasn't working. We were 2 down before half time. We were handed the lifeline of a soft penalty and the dismissal of Knight. Against a weakened side we were able to get ahead in the game but then did nothing to ensure that we held on to that advantage. I would have liked to see a change when we went 3-2 up (for what it's worth a certain previous manager would have had a defensive player stripping off as soon as the 3rd goal hit the net!)

The problem with tinkering with formations is that players are suddenly left unsure of what their job is in any particular situation - again I would guarantee that no player was ever left in any doubt as to exactly what his job was under Jose. That uncertainty had as much to do with how we defended as anything else.

Playing a more attacking game or line up will inevitably lead to more space for the opposition and make life more difficult for the defence. Our defence is used to playing with some deep lying midfield cover and it looked vulnerable without it. Maybe it would be different if we had a full strength, fully fit defence - but yesterday we didn't. This point is less of a criticism as it represents the change that Grant is actively trying to make. I happen to think it is wrong, but I don't actually get any say in it so I'll have to lump it.

So at the moment we have the worst of all worlds. We aren't playing attractive sexy football and we aren't solid in defence and when the matches against the big teams have come up we are losing those too.

Unlike some, I am not happy to give up on the league. I think it's there to won still but we have to stop drawing at home and we have to take some points off Man U, Arsenal and Liverpool when they come to the Bridge. Last season we managed to compete on 4 fronts despite internal wrangling, despite some serious long term injuries and despite the manager not being supported by the owner either financially or indeed in any way.

This season we have no worse squad. There is not the same internal problems, we will miss players during the ACN and we do still have a lot of injuries. But we do have the opportunity to bring players in January.

We may not win the league, but we should be in with a good shout right up to the end.

 
Jose is not fully free of blame for the state of the current squad, but he was given no transfer budget last January because it wasn't out policy to buy during the window. Even when we didn't have a fit centre half at the club!
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He was also given no budget for players during the summer, except Malouda who was bought with the money recouped from the sale of Robben. He had no other choice but to go for free signings in Pizzaro and Sidwell. Belleti instead of Alves. His hands were tied. They were forcing him out, he wouldn't budge because he wanted a pay-off for him and his backroom staff!!

We have gone from defending back to back Champions last season, a side who were a handful of games from the quad, to a bunch of also rans, lucky to finish in the top four.

I think the people running the club, or Roman and his petualnce in particular are to balme for the current state of things, more than the previous manager!! They're still here and should have done things better from the start. If they wanted Jose out, do it in the summer rather than pull in the purse strings.

During this time Ballack and Sheva were and still are picking up over £1m per month in wages between them. and you know what I think about their signings.......
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On yesterdays game, we lacked orgainsation and belief. Villa didn't which is why they picked up a point! They also have a manager with alot of experience!

 
The problem for Grant appears to be that he is trying to half heartedly tinker with things and try out more "attacking" strategies during games - anything to get away from being labelled Mourinhoeque.

But the problem with this something and nothing approach is that the players like ethical said just get confused. He's right that under Jose, every player knew what their role was within the team and woe betide them if they deviated from that - this led to a very rigid but super effective (most of the time
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) system which served us very well result wise (if not style wise for some).

Now Grant has a new mandate - he has to otherwise he will lose his job and does not have the players to carry that out. I don't know whether he has realised that yet or not - if he's as clever as he is meant to be then presumably he has. So he has tinkered little with what worked because he has quickly found out that he was winning without having to do too much to what was already in place and when you start winning you sort of like to carry on doing so and he has not risked much to date. However, even those small enforced changes I think are slowly causing confusion amongst the ranks and although some might argue this is just a necessary evil towards more stylish football, I don't see how it can be anything but a receipe for more games like Wednesday - perhaps not quite as hectic though!

Until Grant gets a clean slate to start again in the summer, I wonder where Grant will go with this team, there are rumors about new players coming in even for January now the likes of Modric, Anelka, Villa. Quite how this influx of players IF they come in will help settle things down within the team and contribute more markedly to a change in style I don't know. It could be the making of Grant or the breaking of him.

I just don't see Grant as a man with the charisma and strength required to manage a big team like ours, I really try to see it within him when he talks and his body language on the touchline but it's just not there for me. May be I'm wrong about this, Cech said in an interview recently that all the players respected Grant from minute one so who knows? I just wonder if that's all window dressing personally and PR, I find it difficult to believe the likes of Drogba, JT, Lampard, Riccy et al are quite as enamoured of Grant and his talent and motivational abilities as they were by Mourinho. I just feel that the team in its weaker moments looks far more vulnerable than it ever did under Jose and when the team are at their strongest it looks no stronger though - Grant has not added any extra element for me in that regard. And the whole purpose of changing a manager is to improve the team not weaken it and I just feel this change has not been to our benefit despite the hype from the club and run of good results.

As for our spending, Pizarro was bought on a free when the purse strings were shut, Malouda was bought using Robben's sale money and Sidwell was a free. Alves was turned down due to costing too much so we got Belletti instead. I think it's fair to say that Mourinho since that bitter public row in January 2007 has had little or no money to play with upon orders or Roman but it has been dressed up by Buck and co as their new low spending policy this summer and yes Jose went along with it in public to keep the bandwagon rolling drunkenly along. It would be ironic if we start buying big in January for Grant after saying only a few months ago we didn't need to spend big any more - I guess they will dress it up as due to injuries and the loss of players during the ANC. Modric will apparently cost £18 million odd, Villa how much? Anelka is what £15 million? So you are looking at over £30 million right there. That's one thing that you can compare favourably for Grant in comparison to Mourinho - Grant can dig himself out of our injury/style hole by buying his way hopefully out of trouble, Mourinho's supply line was cut off because of his inability to conduct a calm conversation with his boss in private.
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ecthelion

Give any manager 400 million and he will built u a great team.
Really?

How much money did Leeds waste and where are they now?

And Newcastle? How much cash and how many managers have they eaten and spat out?

And Real Madrid in the past with their spending almost financed by the Spanish government it's that large?

Sure Jose had a lot of cash to spend and he spent it but it takes more than cash to build a team to win you a title. It's an amalgam of many many things and cash is just one of those parts - important yes but not a cast iron guarantee of anything.

Pauly

But i've noticed the players movement on and off the ball improve and take that as a result of his training/management. People who can't see the change in formation/passing baffle me, perhaps it's subtle... who knows.
You have your answer from me, it's subtle then. I'm one of those people that must baffle the hell out of you because I don't see a damn thing overtly that has changed. I'll admit I have not been able to watch every game fully so obviously I may have missed something glaring during a match but aside from more licence to Joe (often to his detriment) I don't see it and neither do many in the media or other managers I've listened to over the last three months, they alll appear to be as baffled as I am as to the new more positive style football we appear to be playing now. As for our passing, movement and retention of the ball forgive me but that was one of the things I recall Mourinho was most obsessed about! To suggest we have now actually improved on that under Grant/Cate et al - well that baffles me in turn so I guess we are even.

 
exactly, Villa have a manager with experience!!

Yesterday arsenal vs. portsmouth, Eboue did a two footed lung at a pompey player and recieved a yellow card. Carvahlo does the same thing, with contact on the ball, and gets a red card. I don't wanna sound like moaning Fergusen, but there have been a couple of sketchy calls this season so far that makes me think a little that Ref's don't particualry like us. The sending off of Ashley Cole just angered me because it shows what a ref would do in a chaotic situation. Players yelling everywhere, gives a red card, and why? Because his linesman thought he saw it hit ashley cole's arm, but how far is he from the corner flag to the nearest side of the goal. Since when does the linesman call penalties
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But Grant hasn't changed the style of play has he? Apart from a couple of games, yesterday's included, he's stuck rigidly with the 4-3-3 Jose introduced. Including a lone, (and often isolated), central striker.
It seems obvious to me that the formation is different. It's a real 433, the 3 are much closer up front and the most obvious example of this is how much closer joe cole is playing to the back post and why he has scored goals like... that one were he came in on the back post for a tap in... which was it? somebody help me out- about a month ago.

And we are passing the ball shorter intentionally... i don't know- i'm not saying it's successful but it seems obvious to me. maybe i'm mad though. Joe is playing on the back post- the other side often with malouda has been less obvious...

As for:

What players do you actually mean by this, as most of the squad were not brought up on traditional English 4-4-2 and it was probably along time since those who did have played this system with perhaps the exception of Sidwell?
I think people often mix up 'keeping the ball', which involves patience, constant movement, selecting the right pass, protecting the ball with your body, and so on- with creativity; "good passing", opening up defenses.

It's tough to mention players that are good at playing this type of football in our squad at the moment- We got a glimpse of all the attributes (movement, strength, patience, simple play etc.) of what is required yesterday with Ballack- he passed and moved and stood out because he was head and shoulders above anyone else on the pitch yesterday bar sheva.

People believe the hype about the premier league but if you compare these type of skills against players in spain, then you'll realise that there are only a couple of players in our squad who are top class with this type of skill and i'd list them as mikel and ballack. Sheva/drogba/lamps/joe are OK at it, but if you compare them to the barcelona squad they would look out of place in the squad.

 
It is funny reading all the bitching and moaning from some on this board. There are some short memories around. I remember reading pretty much the same thing after we lost at Villa and then drew at home with Blackburn and Rosenborg.

I'm not saying for a minute that Grant is going to win us anything let alone the league. The jury is definitely still out. However our league record this season has been pretty good under Grant. We lost that first game against United when he had barely stepped into the dugout and then of course the game against Arsenal where we were unlucky not to get a point. Other than that our form has been consistent with all of the other top 4 teams. Arsenal have drawn against the likes of Newcastle and Pompey while losing to Boro. Liverpool have been Liverpool. United have probably been the pick of the bunch after their poor start although even they lost to Bolton recently. We probably won't win the league this season but did anybody really expect to after the turmoil we saw at the start of the season?

Beyond that we are in the QF of the Carling Cup and made it comfortably through to the last 16 of the Champions League after a poor start under Jose.

So all that and with a horrendous injury list yet some are still not happy. Perhaps we have been spoilt by the Roman years. We will not win something every year. That is undoubtedly a fact. Is that a bad thing?

 
It is funny reading all the bitching and moaning from some on this board. There are some short memories around. I remember reading pretty much the same thing after we lost at Villa and then drew at home with Blackburn and Rosenborg.I'm not saying for a minute that Grant is going to win us anything let alone the league. The jury is definitely still out. However our league record this season has been pretty good under Grant. We lost that first game against United when he had barely stepped into the dugout and then of course the game against Arsenal where we were unlucky not to get a point. Other than that our form has been consistent with all of the other top 4 teams. Arsenal have drawn against the likes of Newcastle and Pompey while losing to Boro. Liverpool have been Liverpool. United have probably been the pick of the bunch after their poor start although even they lost to Bolton recently. We probably won't win the league this season but did anybody really expect to after the turmoil we saw at the start of the season?

Beyond that we are in the QF of the Carling Cup and made it comfortably through to the last 16 of the Champions League after a poor start under Jose.

So all that and with a horrendous injury list yet some are still not happy. Perhaps we have been spoilt by the Roman years. We will not win something every year. That is undoubtedly a fact. Is that a bad thing?
Post of the season so far.
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Just one of those great games of football that will be remembered for a long long time. At 0-2 most of us would gladly have accepted a draw but it was a roller coaster of emotions and we're all obviously gutted to have throw it away at the end with the game seemingly won.

And I really cannot understand the comments of the pro Jose camp who come out with the "Give me 1-0 wins any day".

I guess it all comes down to what we want and what we get out of watching football? Sure the trophies are great but if they are achived by grinding out 1-0 after 1-0 who can really be happy with that? The games that stand out will tend to be the games packed with incidents and yesterdays game had all that and some.

I'm not convinced Grant is the man to take us forward long term but he has done okay up to now (including a number of 1-0's that so many of you love so much
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) but I'm certainly not gonna slate the guy for a 4-4 draw when we are missing our skipper and leader and are without possibly the best striker in the world at the moment.

 
The only game I can think of under Jose that had a similar crazy scoreline was the 3-3 cup game with Spurs last season. In many ways quite similar to the Villa game except without the late drama. Spurs, like Villa, outplayed us for most of the first half before we came back strongly in the second half.

 
It is funny reading all the bitching and moaning from some on this board. There are some short memories around. I remember reading pretty much the same thing after we lost at Villa and then drew at home with Blackburn and Rosenborg.I'm not saying for a minute that Grant is going to win us anything let alone the league. The jury is definitely still out. However our league record this season has been pretty good under Grant. We lost that first game against United when he had barely stepped into the dugout and then of course the game against Arsenal where we were unlucky not to get a point. Other than that our form has been consistent with all of the other top 4 teams. Arsenal have drawn against the likes of Newcastle and Pompey while losing to Boro. Liverpool have been Liverpool. United have probably been the pick of the bunch after their poor start although even they lost to Bolton recently. We probably won't win the league this season but did anybody really expect to after the turmoil we saw at the start of the season?

Beyond that we are in the QF of the Carling Cup and made it comfortably through to the last 16 of the Champions League after a poor start under Jose.

So all that and with a horrendous injury list yet some are still not happy. Perhaps we have been spoilt by the Roman years. We will not win something every year. That is undoubtedly a fact. Is that a bad thing?
Alternatively you could say that we have generally won the matches you would expect us to win, lost the important ones and failed to provide much, if any, more entertaining football whilst looking more vulnerable defensively.

Depends on your point of view I guess.

The one thing that I can't get over though is the idea that people are quite happy to finish fourth and aren't that bothered about the league. i keep reading it and my jaw drops each time.

The league is the bread and butter. if we never won anything else that would be fine. CL will be nice when we do it one day - I doubt it will be this year but you never know.

I don't see how changing the manager means that we should give up on the league before the turn of the year.

 
Nobody is suggesting that we would be happy with fourth. I'd at least hope to finish above Liverpool. But when you change manages midseason you usually expect some inconsistency during the transition. New managers rarely carry on where the old one left off.

To take your point about giving up on the league by Christmas I don't think that would have been the case in the past but these days you can barely afford to drop any points if you want to win the league. Apart from losing at Bolton and drawing with Arsenal I think United have won every game since their bad start to the season. We would need to virtually win all the rest of our games to have a chance of winning the league from here. With our current injury crisis and the ACN fast approaching I can't see that happening. I hope we can at least stay in contention and ensure 3rd place. Perhaps if the top 2 start stumbling we could then surprise them but I think that is unlikely especially with United.

I take your point about winning the expected games and I don't think the style has been drastically different at times (although we do seem more inclined to go for a second or third goal now even when we may be better advised defending our narrow lead) . But then Jose dropped a few unexpected points at the start of the season too so who is to say we would have been in a better position under him currently?

We will have a better idea of Grant's direction when we see what players he signs in January. His true test as a manager will then come when we play the other top 4 sides at home in the league and also the later stages of the Cup competitions. If he fails in those games he will probably find himself under pressure.

 
Give any manager 400 million and he will built u a great team.
Not necessarily true and don't forget what he achieved at Porto without a big transfer budget.

Hundreds of millions can buy you great players but not necessarily a great team. There are plenty of times in history where clubs hae spent heavily and under achieved - maybe not the sums Jose spent but that is all relative to the era the money was spent in.
What i am saying is that atleast we shuld wait and see how avram manages the team after he has bought some players this transfer window. Dont get me wrong. Jose is a great manager and everyone knows that. Even barca fans(such hypocrites) want him who once said that mourinho dusnt suit their style. But its just that i wasnt comfortable with the image of chelsea as a team buying the title.

 
There is one fundamental problem in chelsea squad. They cannot deliver a f**kin decent pass.

Lampard is a great player, but of late his game has been sh*t. His secondary job maybe to score goals but he has forgotten how to fulfill his primary job and that is to provide service to service to our wingmen or strikers. When is the last time that he actually gave a decent thru pass that lead to goal? He had around seven shots in the villa gae and he converted none of the. So why the f**k dus he not learn something from his repeated mistakes and give passes to our strikers who can score goals if given the opportunity. Under mourinho Laps was my favourite player but not any more. He has to go. Ballack shuld play instead. He knows how to pass.

I have noticed another important thing. Why the f**k does Joey keep on trying to do tricks when he ends up losing possession? Its far more effective if he passes the ball.

 
There is one fundamental problem in chelsea squad. They cannot deliver a f***** decent pass.Lampard is a great player, but of late his game has been sh*t. His secondary job maybe to score goals but he has forgotten how to fulfill his primary job and that is to provide service to service to our wingmen or strikers. When is the last time that he actually gave a decent thru pass that lead to goal? He had around seven shots in the villa gae and he converted none of the. So why the F*** dus he not learn something from his repeated mistakes and give passes to our strikers who can score goals if given the opportunity. Under mourinho Laps was my favourite player but not any more. He has to go. Ballack shuld play instead. He knows how to pass.

I have noticed another important thing. Why the F*** does Joey keep on trying to do tricks when he ends up losing possession? Its far more effective if he passes the ball.
I would go further to say that none of our English regulars have been playing up to their normal standards recently. Even JT had been a bit off colour before he got injured I thought. Perhaps a hangover from the troubles of the national team or perhaps they had started to believe their own hype? I'd probably say Ashley Cole is the one exception. If Ballack continues to play as well as he did on Saturday I wonder if lampard will walk back into the team when he is fit again?

 
Abramovich has what he wanted - a circus. Grant is the mercurial ring-leader and even Petr Cech has taken up juggling. We have the strongman (Alex), the one-legged imp (Cashley), a man whose shadow is faster than he is (Sheva), and the oldest acrobat in town (Pizarro). Jose choked on his turkey (or whatever they have in Portugal at Xmas) when he heard the result - ice hockey or just hockey?

For Villa read Leicester. Same game, different result.

They do say it's better to be lucky than good. Grant changed the shape of the team for perhaps the first time - and got lucky. It's pretty obvious the guy is hapless, hopeless and clueless.

I'm totally uninspired by the way we are playing, the man we have given a 4 year contract to and the way some of you are backing him. Shame on your denouncements of Jose's Way. Keep those Dvd's safe - it'll be all you'll have to cheer about this season and for the next few, especially once Roman starts to employ bearded ladies and fire-eaters!

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I would go further to say that none of our English regulars have been playing up to their normal standards recently. Even JT had been a bit off colour before he got injured I thought. Perhaps a hangover from the troubles of the national team or perhaps they had started to believe their own hype? I'd probably say Ashley Cole is the one exception. If Ballack continues to play as well as he did on Saturday I wonder if lampard will walk back into the team when he is fit again?
I noticed that JT's dip in form started around the time he was named England's captain. Perhaps it turned out to be too much pressure for him to handle given he had already a lot on his plate on the club level?

Obviously it didn't help that his manager was Steve Maclaren, but i feel John being the team captain felt responsible for the failure to qualify.

 
There is one fundamental problem in chelsea squad. They cannot deliver a f***** decent pass.Lampard is a great player, but of late his game has been sh*t. His secondary job maybe to score goals but he has forgotten how to fulfill his primary job and that is to provide service to service to our wingmen or strikers. When is the last time that he actually gave a decent thru pass that lead to goal? He had around seven shots in the villa gae and he converted none of the. So why the F*** dus he not learn something from his repeated mistakes and give passes to our strikers who can score goals if given the opportunity. Under mourinho Laps was my favourite player but not any more. He has to go. Ballack shuld play instead. He knows how to pass.

I have noticed another important thing. Why the F*** does Joey keep on trying to do tricks when he ends up losing possession? Its far more effective if he passes the ball.
I would go further to say that none of our English regulars have been playing up to their normal standards recently. Even JT had been a bit off colour before he got injured I thought. Perhaps a hangover from the troubles of the national team or perhaps they had started to believe their own hype? I'd probably say Ashley Cole is the one exception. If Ballack continues to play as well as he did on Saturday I wonder if lampard will walk back into the team when he is fit again?
Cudnt put it better.

 
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