Drugs.

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Fair play bjd, if you're speaking first hand then you are in a better position than me to judge these things, I'm just going by what I read, but a lot of it does point to certain drugs being very safe, especially compared to the curiously legal alcohol and cigarettes :) (and very taxable!)

 
Unfortunately, the number of people who cannot bring themselves to responsibly use drugs and other such recreational substances is not in a minority.Talking about the developing world where I come from, the number of kids and teenagers taking up smoking and drinking is absolutely phenomenal although its illegal to purchase alcohol or tobacco related stuff below the age of 18. It is all due to the availability of such things openly in the first place. Banned drugs are hard to procure hence only a limited number of youngsters get their hands on them. Hence its important that these substance be banned so that it doesnt become too easy to get these things.

I also agree that either tobacco and alcohols be banned too or stricter rules be put in place to make sure the children dont become smokers or alcoholics.
I'm not sure what you're saying, Rahul. You tell us the number of kids and teenagers taking up smoking and drinking is phenomenal, although it is illegal below 18. Then you state that banned drugs are hard to get, and so only a limited number of youngsters get their hands on them. You argue that therefore it is important to ban the substances. But earlier you said it was so easy for kids below 18 to take up smoking and drinking, despite its illegality. So how would banning drugs get a different result?

I agree that there should be an age limit on buying alcohol, tobacco and soft drugs. Sixteen or eighteen would do the trick, in view of scientific research on damage of alcohol to teenage brains, I would advocate 18.

I'm curious about your position on banning those substances for adults? Because they are supposed to know what they're doing and are accountable for their own behaviour. Would you propose a total ban on harmful substances?

 
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Unlike what a lot of people think, soft drugs are not legal in the Netherlands. Storing it in an small amount for retail selling is tolerated, the authorities turn a blind eye. Posessing a larger amount of soft drugs and obviously hard drugs is illegal. The drugs policy of the Netherlands has led to a decrease in drugs-related crime and deaths. However, it has led to a bad image abroad, and hoards of foreigners coming to the Dutch (or mainly Amsterdam) coffeeshops. Most of the Dutch limit themselves to recreational use, not unlike having a pint or two. Just like alcohol and tobacco, soft drugs can be innocent, and it can lead to disaster. The way a user turns is not directed by the legal issues, but by the personality and situation of the user. Drinking a few pints a week (so not binge drinking) will kill quite a few braincells, but will not necessarily lead to alcohol abuse. Same for a joint: not everybody jumps to smack or whatever.

Neither alcohol, nor tobacco, nor recreational drugs are harmless. Unfortunately not everybody has the same will power or constitution to know when to quit. Equally unfortunately, governments (and a lot of people beside that) are hypocritical: alcohol and tobacco are somehow allowed and taxed to the hilt, but they get hysterical about drugs, and take draconian measures to stop people from using them. Yet those same people can drink and smoke themselves to an early grave, causing misery around them.

So a cool, balanced and scientific legal review is necessary. But keep in mind that forbidding harmful substances is usually counterproductive: people will do anything to get their fix of their favourite poison, and that is opening the doors wide for organised crime. I would plead for letting people decide for themselves in their use of alcohol, tobacco AND soft drugs. Most of us are perfectly capable of handling alcohol responsibly, we would be equally responsible in our soft drug use. And you can't legislate for the minority that cannot handle anything. People have their own responsibility, this is not the government's job. You can however offer help to those addicts who want to get rid of their habit, and try and educate people before they actually get that far.
Great post Val.

 
what the hell is a soft drug? Just because a government has classified classes of drugs leads people to believe some are less or more dangerous than others. It's like saying wine is safer than whisky but you can still be an alcoholic by drinking wine all day long. IMO weed is just as addictive as coke.

 
drugs should not be decrimalised, not any of them. Certainly not weed, it's capacity to act as a stepping stone to harder drugs is bad enough
this has been proved false ages ago and countless times.

i'm willing to bet that almost every heroin addict has had at least one beer before turning to harder to drugs :)

but there are some really strong types out there that can do damage if abused. It's naive to suggest otherwise.
really, this is the same for a whole lot of other things. too much of fat or tv or extreme sports can also do damage. common sense dictates temperance for things like these.

There are no pros to illegal drug use, whether it's hardcore use or recreational. None. I speak from experiences, my own and other people I have known.
i agree. it would be much safer to use legal drugs. legalize, regulate and tax it. concentrate on prevention and correct information. not a single teenager will buy the obvious lies. the demonizing propaganda is clearly not working, the (potential) users are not protected and the community pays more when medical treatment is needed as all profit goes to crime organisations. they are reaping the benefits and the taxpayers are paying the bills of the current system.

 
what the hell is a soft drug? Just because a government has classified classes of drugs leads people to believe some are less or more dangerous than others.
Like I've said, I don't even smoke cigarettes or drink coffee, so I'm not trying to defend weed here, but I stand by my opinion that it's dangerous to put all drugs on the same line. It exaggerates the effects of milder substances and belittles the effects of stronger substances. Let's take two drugs that you smoke: weed and crack. Are you telling me that it's just as dangerous to smoke weed as it is to smoke crack?

 
Legalise it, regulate it (I imagine if there are health problems associated with it, it's mostly due to dodgy and poor strains of the drug) and tax the absolute f**king sh*t out of it. You'd make money, help destroy a lot of the criminal activity associated with it, and ensure people got safer strains of the drug.
d'oh, all that typing when :) would be enough...

blize, good post, this is the only sensible way to go.

 
Like I've said, I don't even smoke cigarettes or drink coffee, so I'm not trying to defend weed here, but I stand by my opinion that it's dangerous to put all drugs on the same line. It exaggerates the effects of milder substances and belittles the effects of stronger substances. Let's take two drugs that you smoke: weed and crack. Are you telling me that it's just as dangerous to smoke weed as it is to smoke crack?
Yess......it would be like comparing a Cat with Tiger .....or comparing Baichung Bhutia with Didier Drogba :) .

 
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Well, I have over 15 years experience with both alcohol and marijuana (and 9 years smoking cigarettes before I quit).

Marijuana is by far and beyond the least harmful of the three, and while I don't advocate all drugs should be legal, its pure hypocrisy that the least harmful of the 3 (physiologically, psychologically ,and socially) is illegal purely due to misconception and economic/political reasons.

I believe that the "criminalized" status of marijuana is more of a hindrance than a benefit to society. I take this stance for a multitude of reason such as, but not limited to:

- it empowers criminals and especially organized crime.

- it not only eliminates a potential cash crop, but also drains tax dollars in so many wasteful ways

- is it really logical to give someone a life long criminal record that could prevent them from practising law/medicine or even from traveling abroad for the rest of their life because they smoked a joint in first year college?

-it drives people to drink, a much worse substance, by eliminating marijuana as competing product/alternate substance

- its illegal status actually makes it MUCH easier for minors to obtain!

Lets look at some of the common misinformation/myths spread about marijuana

Myth #1: Marijuana is a gateway drug

Fair enough, but no more so than tylenol. Numerous clinical studies research have shown that A) The vast majority marijuana users who advance to "harder drugs" began by drinking alcohol, so you cant isolate the blame to marijuana and :) its shown that alcohol is far more likely to be a "gateway drug" as it actually alters your mind and inhibits your decision making process in a manner than marijuana does not.

Netherlands Institute of Mental Health and Addiction published the following

"As for a possible switch from cannabis to hard drugs, it is clear that the pharmalogical properties of cannabis are irrelevant in this respect. There is no physically determined tendency towards switching from marijuana to harder substances. Social factors, however, do appear to play a role. The more users get integrated in a environment ("subculture") where, apart from cannabis, hard drugs can be obtained, the greater the chance they may switch to hard drugs. Separation of the drug markets are therefore essential."

Or in a sentence or two "Marijuana can only be considered a gateway drug in the context that to access marijuana, due to its criminalized status, you need to expose yourself to the subculture of illegal drugs. Legalization and regulation would eliminate this factor, and thus any ability for marijuana toeffectively act as a gateway drug."

In personal experience, I know of many many people who use hard drugs such as cocaine/ecstacy, who completely abstained from marijuana use until after they had developed those coke/ecstacy/alcohol addictions. I do not know a single person who smokes marijuana only (doesn't drink liqour) and has "graduated" to harder drugs. Marijuana has a calming/relaxing effect while people going after drugs like coke are trying to find an "exciting high or rush". Some people may suffer from slight paranoia after indulging in marijuana use, but that paranoia is usually 100% related to a fear of being caught with an illegal substance and the potential damage, such of loss of job/welfare benefits or even life long criminal record, if marijuana use is proven.

Myth #2: Smoking marijuana causes permanent damage to the brain

Even long term heavy use of marijuana by adults has, at most, a negligible residual impact on cognition and memory skills. It can have an "subtle effect" on developing brains(adolescent usage), but no where near as damaging as the effect alcohol has on developing brains.

Harvard Medical School researchers performed magnetic resonance imaging on the brains of long-term cannabis users (reporting a mean of 20,100 lifetime episodes of smoking) and controls (subjects with no history of cannabis use). Imaging displayed "no significant differences" between heavy marijuana smokers compared to non smokers.

An October 2004 study published in the journal Psychological Medicine examined the potential adverse effects of marijuana on cognition. It reported "an absence of marked long-term residual effects on marijuana use on cognitive abilities". Likewise a 2002 clinical trial published in the Canadian Medical Association Journal determined "Marijuana does not have a long-term negative impact on global intelligences".

Now a handful of studies have reported that current marijuana users sometimes score slightly lower than non users on certain cognitive tests, these same studies also report that cannabis consumers score the same as nonusers once they have abstained from the drug for several days or weeks.

Actually, far from damaging the brain, it appears that many of the active components in marijuana may, in some instances, actually be good for it. Scientific studies indicate that cannabis' ingredients can prevent against brain damage due to stroke, traumatic brain injury, and ironically enough, alcohol poisoning. Researches at the University of Saskatchewan reported that the administration of synthetic cannabinoids in rats stimulated the proliferation of newborn neruons (nerve cells) in the hippocampus region of the brain. The results stunned investigators, who noted that virtually all other psychoactive substances (including alcohol, cocaine, nicotine, and opiates) suppress rather than promote nuerogensis. Team investigator Xia Zhang quoted "This is quite a surprise. Chronic use of marijuana may actually improve learning memory when the new neurons in the hippocampus can mature in two or three months."

Now I noticed someone here say t i think its irresponsible to post things like 'alcohol is far more dangerous than cannabis' when for some people it clearly isn't.

To be blunt, bull sh*t.

Physically its no question, alcohol abuse leads to a vast multitude of medical problems marijuana does not contribute to, including death itself. Marijuana use alone has not been found liable for a single death world wide, alcohol abuse in the USA alone claims tens of thousands of lives on a yearly basis.

Socially, alcohol again takes the cake. According to a 1994 report by the US National Center on Addiction and Substance Abuse(CASA) 95% of all campus(post secondary) assaults are alcohol related, and 90% of all campus rapes involve a victim or an assailant who has been drinking alcohol.

Well maybe thats only on campuses! Here's a direct quote from Norm Stamper, former Chief of the Seattle Police Department (major city in the USA where marijuana is very illegal)"Over the past four years, out of a general interest in this subject,(effects of marijuana vs alcohol on society) I've been asking police officers throughout the U.S.A (and Canada) two questions. First: "When's the last time you had to fight someone under the influence of marijuana?" (And by this I mean marijuana only, not pot plus a six pack or a fifth of tequila.) My colleagues pause; they reflect. Their eyes widen as they realize that in their five or fifteen or thirty years on the job they have never had to fight a marijuana user. I then ask "When's the last time you had to fight a drunk?" They look at their watches. It's telling that the booze question is answered in terms of hours, not days or weeks.

Heres a fun fact, when certain groups/politicians were pushing for the federal criminaliztion of marijuana in the USA before congress, the American Medical Association (AMA) was actually the most vocal opponent of criminalization citing it would hamper physicians ability to utilize marijuana's therapeutic potential. Some of the biggest pro crimilization groups? Lobbyist hired by alcohol companies. Why? Simply put, marijuana is a competing product....

Now I touched on how criminalization does the following IMO: Wastes tax dollars, benefits organized crime, denies a potential cash crop, ties up our legal system....and these are all related in my view.

First of all lets touch on empowering organized crime. I mean I can sit here and tell you that prohibition doesn't work, its plainly obvious, and how the only choice is not "if" people will smoke marijuana (World Health Organization studies show over 45% of Americans have used marijuana) but "who will profit from it". The choices are clear (and so should the answer, but apparently not) organized crime, who will reinvest in other illegal activities and the weapons/personnel to carry them out/protect them, or government, who will reinvest into the tax paying communities. As we saw with liquor prohibition in the USA during 1920-1933, this did not stop (otherwise) law abiding citizens from enjoying the substance, it merely drove them to the black market to obtain it. This had a few effects. First it stopped all "regulation" of the product, meaning there was no safety check to make sure this was a "safe" product to consume, I don't think I need to explain the dangers here. Secondly, as stated, it drove consumers to the black market to obtain the product and this denied tax revenue to be collected from it and placed the profits solely in the hands of organized crime. Thirdly this increased the value of the product, which does 2 things....increases the profits organized crime makes and thus can reinvest in other illegal activities (how much? The US domestic retail market value of marijuana is estimated to be worth $113 billion, as compared with liqour at $130 billion...of course the marijuana market is all tax free/unregulated and profits criminal organizations) as well it increased "turf value" and this drives up violence to protect/obtain new "market shares" for the OC syndicates. Just look at the spike in urban murders during alcohol prohition of which a large percentage are 100% related to the prohibition of alcohol.

Now I also mentioned how its criminalized status makes it easier for youths to obtain the drug. This I can vouch from personal experience, it simply is much easier for a 15 yer old to buy a quarter of weed than it is to buy a beer or pack of smokes. Why? Because cigarettes and alcohol are legalized and regulated, this means that their are able to be mass produced and sold at a cheaper cost than what organized crime can usually afford (this is changing with cigarettes due to heavy taxation), also it means that a citizen can conveniently and legally purchase it in a licensed venue and escape the hazard of having to interact with a "drug dealer" who is selling an unregulated product. These factors combine to make a black market mostly ineffective, and thus lower the chances of a "dealer" trying to peddle these commodities.

How does this make it harder for youths to obtain? Because if we eliminate black market sources potential consumers have to go to a lisenced venue to purchase the products, who are legally obliged to check for ID. If we criminalize a substance and thus eliminate legal/regulated venues in which it can be purchases, we empower the black market and make it profitable for criminal elements to enter it. I can personally tell you, as someone who has purchased marijuana from the age of 14, that never once has a "drug dealer" asked me for ID. They simply dont care who they sell to or whats in the product, they only care about making as much money as possible and not getting caught.

So in conclusion I feel marijuana legalization will provide a host of positive benefits ranging from:

A safer product for those who consume it.

Increase tax revenues and elimate a hug chunk of organized crime proceeds at the same time.

Make it less accessabile to minors.

Save countless billions through ineffectual law enforcement, court, and penal costs.

Allow a safer alternative than alcohol.

Of course I'm not advocating it to be a miracle drug that everyone should do, indeed there are many people who should refrain from using it. However, I strongly feel that is a choice adults should be allowed to make, not the government for them, especially when we allow that choice for two substances that are far more "dangerous": alcohoal and tobacco. I feel it would have to be a highly taxed and regualted substance, much like alcohol and tobacco. The current system is a hypocritical failure and I fail to see any benifits of prohibition other than a blissful ignorance (fostered by serial campaigns of misinformation)of thinking "its the right thing to do". It is not.

 
I wan to advise that a lot of the information I mentioned was sourced from a book "Marijuana is Safer So WHy Are We Driving People to Drink?"

Its a pretty good and fairly subjective read, as well they list all their sources. I would recommend it to anyone, from current marijuana users to non users. It provides a wealth of information related to the substance and its current standing.

Hope fully it will enlighten some people to the true nature of the substance, as a lot of the information put to the public is complete misinformation with no scientific/medical backing.

 
what the hell is a soft drug? Just because a government has classified classes of drugs leads people to believe some are less or more dangerous than others. It's like saying wine is safer than whisky but you can still be an alcoholic by drinking wine all day long. IMO weed is just as addictive as coke.
Sorry if I come across belligerent or condenscending, it is not my intent.

Wine is safer than whisky to an extent. I drink two bottles of wine in an night, Im drunk. I drink 2 bottles of whiskey in a night, Im in the hospital with alcohol poisoning and lucky to wake up the next day....or ever.

Comparing weed to coke is ridiculous, no offence. Its like saying "Your as likely to get hurt playing ping pong as playing full contact rugby" they might both be sports/drugs but beyond that everything else is different. From the chemical make up, to the addictive/health properties, to even the way you "consume" the product.

Never mind that there is countless medical studies to prove marijuana has no physically addictive properties.

 
Barry , you can copy and paste from as many articles as you want but I maintain that it is irresponsible and misguided to proclaim weed is harmless when to SOME people it can cause major problems.

People need to be educated, and people need to be sensible. End of.

 
Barry , you can copy and paste from as many articles as you want but I maintain that it is irresponsible and misguided to proclaim weed is harmless when to SOME people it can cause major problems.People need to be educated, and people need to be sensible. End of.
I never stated marijuana is harmless, i merely stated it is far less harmful than what is commonly suggested and far far far less harmful than legal substances such as tobacco or alcohol.

Of course it is harmful to some people, what isnt? Dairy products are harmful to some people. Peanuts are harmful to some people. Fragrances are harmful to some people. Should we criminalize those substances, or should we just promote regulation and awareness?

I agree people need to be educated on the topic, thats why I have provided proven research and sources to back what Ive writen. Everything from sourced references of medical/scientific reasearch to direct qoutes from high ranking law enforcement officials. I fail to see the education you provide by tossing out opinions with no backing, I also fail to see the sensibility in that. Your only claims have been frm personal experiences..... I can promise you my personal experiences would trump your own as Ive engaged in nearly every aspect of the marijuana industry.

You also claim repeatedly that is is "massively damaging" without once specifying what damage is causes, or backing up the claim with proven sources.

So yes education and sensibility are definately something that needs to be provided on the issue, unfortunately you are not providing either at the moment.

I'd give up now then pal.
Thats funny, when the word pot was being used, I thought it was in reference to a slang term for marijuna, not your actual name!

Signed,

Mr Kettle.

Edit: Anytime you're in a discussion or debate and you feel the need to resort to ad hominem tactics, you should probably just stop. Nothing indicates a weak stance more than the need to attack the opposition personally, and not their position.

 
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everyone has there own views on this subject, personaly i like a smoke now and again i enjoy it, also i like a drink now and again, and i've seen more hurt and anger and damage done with the booze.. weed is the lesser of two evils, now where did i put my grinder??????????? ;)

 
Edit: Anytime you're in a discussion or debate and you feel the need to resort to ad hominem tactics, you should probably just stop. Nothing indicates a weak stance more than the need to attack the opposition personally, and not their position.
I see what you did there mr kettle. Didn't you call something I wrote as ' bullsh*t ' though? Nice. One rule for one eh?

Well done. You've got to admit you did ask for it a little with the tone of your posts!

You were rude first. Please remember that.

You comment on my experiences, and ultimatley belittle

them - how dare you. I'm not going to go into them here, they are deeply private and personal. And what's the point , you have already said you would trump

me in every department. Erm well , yeah maybe so . In that case I walk away.

All I ask is that you look at the tone of your posts before you take a pop at others for , erm taking a pop at you.

 
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I see what you did there mr kettle. Didn't you call something I wrote as ' bullsh*t ' though? Nice. One rule for one eh?
You made a false claim. I could of used more eloquent words but I thought those two were adequate to describe the validity of the statement. It was not intended as a personal attack.

I didn't intend to impose a rule or anything. I only added that last part as I found that anytime someone is dealing with reasonable people, the minute they resort to personal or petty attacks, they lose all credibility.

Well done. You've got to admit you did ask for it a little with the tone of your posts!
I find its hard to tell people they are wrong over the internet without stepping on their toes..... so to speak.

Its odd, i'm pretty good at using tact in real life, yet online I find I frequently come across as condescending. Definately not one of my strong points.

Oh, and while I try and keep an open mind.... if you couldn't tell, I am fairly opinionated.....and based on that statment, Im also good at understating ;)

One day I will be like you. One day.
That isn't necessarily in you best interests. Actually I'm sure many people will advise you to celebrate that statement with a nice glass of bleach ;)

 
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