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English, Scotish, Welsh, Irish?

What should the minimum International criteria be?

  • Country of birth

    Votes: 3 14.3%

  • Parents nationality

    Votes: 9 42.9%

  • Grandparents nationality

    Votes: 1 4.8%

  • Moved to country before aged 10

    Votes: 3 14.3%

  • Residency of 5 years

    Votes: 2 9.5%

  • Don't care as long as successful

    Votes: 3 14.3%
  • Total voters
    21
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ForeverCarefree said:
What if you were born on an army base outside of the country of your nationality like Jack Reacher?!
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Army bases are de facto sovereign territory of the country the army belongs to.  However, if Reacher was born outside of the base, but while his family were based overseas, then he would take the nationality of his parents.  Same as if your woman dropped one while clubbing it up in Magaluf.

 
yorkleyblue said:
Army bases are de facto sovereign territory of the country the army belongs to.  However, if Reacher was born outside of the base, but while his family were based overseas, then he would take the nationality of his parents.  Same as if your woman dropped one while clubbing it up in Magaluf.
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Fairly sure Reacher was born on a German army base to an American father and French mother but is an American citizen.

(Does it show I've read most the books...)

 
Doesn't matter to me.  It's all just arbitrary lines on a map.  Someone born in Ghana, moved to England as a baby, knowing no other culture, is no less English than I am as far as I'm concerned.  I don't really see why an attribute determined by an accident of birth has any relevance to football.  If you met someone born in London, but raised entirely in Uruguay to the point that they couldn't even speak English - would you consider them English or Uruguayan?  

Besides, considering how sh*t our national team is we could do with sneaking some talent in from abroad if we play with semantics a bit. 

 
shedpensioner said:
How would you feel if Arteta played for England? He can apply for citizenship of Britain.

Edit: Surely we should be asking for more than just citizenship.
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I'd honestly love to see him in the England team. As far as I'm concerned, if he's legally considered a UK citizen then with all the benefits and responsibilities that entails it should more than qualify him to kick a ball around on a pitch on our behalf.

 
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When you look at the England Rugby or Cricket teams they are full of South Africans, Kiwis etc but I don't get a sense of the fans thinking they don't deserve to represents us.

There is something about our football team though that has almost an air of snobbery (for want of a better word) about it and we always seem to be trying to keep the English game "pure" talking down on the johnny foreigners ruining our game. 

 
Correct me if I'm wrong but I think that Rugby and Cricket have the same rules in terms of 'foreign' players as football, don't they either have to have a parent or grandparent or have fulfilled the residency rules to play for that country?

It's got nothing to do with anyone ruining the game, I'm just asking the question, I personally would rather play for a country that I had some affinity to, in my case England, however I could through my Grandad play for Wales, do I feel Welsh, not for a minute, nor do I feel French, German or Mongolian, however if I fulfilled theri residency rules I could play sport for them.

Would I want to, probably not, unless there was financial reward in it for me.

 
I don't mean to derail the thread but say a footballer had no desire to play international football, can they decline an international call up? 

So for arguments sake this young lad Januzaj, could he just say, "I don't want to play international football" and rule himself out for selection for his whole career?

I know Essien took a hiatus from call ups for Ghana after a couple of injuries but and players such as Carson (I think) took early retirement but just wondered if you could "retire" before it's all started? 

 
ForeverCarefree said:
I don't mean to derail the thread but say a footballer had no desire to play international football, can they decline an international call up? 

So for arguments sake this young lad Januzaj, could he just say, "I don't want to play international football" and rule himself out for selection for his whole career?

I know Essien took a hiatus from call ups for Ghana after a couple of injuries but and players such as Carson (I think) took early retirement but just wondered if you could "retire" before it's all started? 
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FA's can't force them to do anything.  There is no contractual obligation to play internationally so I don't see why not. 

 
ForeverCarefree said:
I don't mean to derail the thread but say a footballer had no desire to play international football, can they decline an international call up? 

So for arguments sake this young lad Januzaj, could he just say, "I don't want to play international football" and rule himself out for selection for his whole career?

I know Essien took a hiatus from call ups for Ghana after a couple of injuries but and players such as Carson (I think) took early retirement but just wondered if you could "retire" before it's all started? 
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I think once you have played for a country then if they call you up I think you have to go.

Castiel said:
FA's can't force them to do anything.  There is no contractual obligation to play internationally so I don't see why not. 
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I seem to recall Makalele trying to retire and the French coach not allowing him to do so.

 
One point to make, is that this is nothing new, we played John Barnes whose Jamaican and didn't come to England until his mid-teens.

 
shedpensioner said:
I seem to recall Makalele trying to retire and the French coach not allowing him to do so.
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Seems you're right, apparently FA's can ban you from playing in the league if you refuse to go.  How ridiculous is that.

 
Castiel said:
Seems you're right, apparently FA's can ban you from playing in the league if you refuse to go.  How ridiculous is that.
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My understanding is that it's a FIFA thing (why would the English FA have cared if Makelele had refused to turn out for France?). So if a player is not released for international duty after being called up then he is banned from playing for his club for a couple of games, I think it was introduced mainly to stop the likes of Ferguson from claiming all his international player are too "injured" for international duty then playing them in the premiership a few days later.

So the rule kind of makes sense based on how I understand it. I guess when a player retires from international football it's just a gentleman's agreement between him and whoever selects the national team, which unfortunately for the player means the national team coach is under no obligation to honour it.

Edit - I don't see why FIFA can't make an exception if a player has stated his intention to retire from international football permanently... 

 
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Castiel said:
Seems you're right, apparently FA's can ban you from playing in the league if you refuse to go.  How ridiculous is that.
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It's ridiculous, but ManU and Liverpool players are exempt from this. As the cases of Scholes, Giggs and Carjacker prove.

 
Country of birth for me. Simple and straightforward. I'd apply that rule to all sports as I find it a bit lacking in class when we grasp after talented persons from overseas.

 
Spudulike said:
Country of birth for me. Simple and straightforward. I'd apply that rule to all sports as I find it a bit lacking in class when we grasp after talented persons from overseas.
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Agree. It would mean SA would have a great cricket team, yet I'm sure it would benefit England in the long run. Of course it would also stop African athletes being flagged out like oil tankers too.

 
Ideally it would be country of birth, but I certainly don't complain when Pietersen is smashing the runs in the cricket or when George North is scoring tries for Wales.

Had Januzaj being living in England since he was a couple of years old and maybe had an English parent, then I would say he should get to play for England. That's not even close to the real case though...

The most confusing thing to me is that the FA have been so keen to get him, following a DECENT performance against the worst team in the league. He's obviously a talented lad, but I doubt this would even be a story if he hadn't have scored the 2 goals. 

What does that say about how the FA rates England's footballers in his age bracket...?

I voted parents nationality, but I think that should include living in said country for the majority of your life...

 
A combination of increased movement of people, increasing nation-states and dual-nationality citizens means this is an issue which has become extremely complex and very hard to define. A black and white answer is no longer good enough to determine whether people can play for a nation or not. Really each case has to be looked at an individual basis.

For example, people here are saying country of birth only. But countless people are born in a country, never to ever see that land again. I was born in Singapore, but left after a month (I have only returned once). I have no emotional, family or cultural ties to that county. My parents only lived there for three years, I know nobody in that country and I didn't really enjoy it when I went. I have spent the other 21 years and 3 months of my life in England, but have only one English parent (a second generation from Irish immigrants) and a German parent. I could represent 4 countries, realistically, but England is the only one I would happily represent. Nevertheless, I would take Singapore if my ability meant I couldn't play for England.

If you look at somebody like Chalobah, he was born in Sierra Leone, has no English parents and only lived here for 4 years before he started to represent England. But I'm sure by that time, he would have told you he was culturally English. The situation is not dissimilar to for Raheem Sterling, Wilfred Zaha and was the case for Fabrice Muamba.
 

The issue to me comes down to cultural feelings to a nation (within reason). Mo Farah would certainly feel more British than Somali, hence why he represents GB. Kevin Prince Boatang on the other hand has never lived in Ghana, but factors in his upbringing may have led him to feel culturally Ghanaian due to his identity compared to 'native' Germans, lifestyle at home and friendship groups.

If there were an active policy by nations to nab talented youngsters just for the purpose of their national team, then there is a problem. But really it should be the player to decide due to culturally perceptions of who they are. Obviously I couldn't decide I am Spanish because I had a good holiday in Spain, but If I lived in Spain and felt an affinity to the people and the place more than anywhere else I had lived, who is anybody to question whether me when I declare myself Spanish?

I feel British due to personal circumstances in my life, not by some uncodefied manifesto of what being British is about.

 
mactheknife said:
A combination of increased movement of people, increasing nation-states and dual-nationality citizens means this is an issue which has become extremely complex and very hard to define. A black and white answer is no longer good enough to determine whether people can play for a nation or not. Really each case has to be looked at an individual basis.

For example, people here are saying country of birth only. But countless people are born in a country, never to ever see that land again. I was born in Singapore, but left after a month (I have only returned once). I have no emotional, family or cultural ties to that county. My parents only lived there for three years, I know nobody in that country and I didn't really enjoy it when I went. I have spent the other 21 years and 3 months of my life in England, but have only one English parent (a second generation from Irish immigrants) and a German parent. I could represent 4 countries, realistically, but England is the only one I would happily represent. Nevertheless, I would take Singapore if my ability meant I couldn't play for England.

If you look at somebody like Chalobah, he was born in Sierra Leone, has no English parents and only lived here for 4 years before he started to represent England. But I'm sure by that time, he would have told you he was culturally English. The situation is not dissimilar to for Raheem Sterling, Wilfred Zaha and was the case for Fabrice Muamba.

The issue to me comes down to cultural feelings to a nation (within reason). Mo Farah would certainly feel more British than Somali, hence why he represents GB. Kevin Prince Boatang on the other hand has never lived in Ghana, but factors in his upbringing may have led him to feel culturally Ghanaian due to his identity compared to 'native' Germans, lifestyle at home and friendship groups.

If there were an active policy by nations to nab talented youngsters just for the purpose of their national team, then there is a problem. But really it should be the player to decide due to culturally perceptions of who they are. Obviously I couldn't decide I am Spanish because I had a good holiday in Spain, but If I lived in Spain and felt an affinity to the people and the place more than anywhere else I had lived, who is anybody to question whether me when I declare myself Spanish?

I feel British due to personal circumstances in my life, not by some uncodefied manifesto of what being British is about.
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Well said, your own circumstances are a great example of why the "country of birth" line of though is far too over-simplified.

I'd be interested to hear how people who think that a player who has lived in this country long enough to be a British citizen think he's not sufficiently British enough to represent the country on the football pitch when the same player would allowed to join the armed forces and represent this country in a war...

 
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