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Tactic vs Player

Utter nonsense. Sorry Bob, but I suggest you go and watch Liverpool play (for example). They play in a very similar set of circumstances as us, same league, same opponents. Same tactics of others sitting back against them - and they move the ball fast. Chase down the opponents at speed to win the ball back, and then do not spend the entire game passing between virgil and konate. Instead they actually look to move the ball progressively at speed.
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I watched pool vs Burnley. It was very slow. No different.

 
What I learn from this thread is that many fans believe that football is whatever your tactical setup. What the other team is doing offensively or defensively is irrelevant.

Maresca ran the same exact offense when we murdered everyone early last season vs we played snoozefest ball. Maresca ran the same exact offense when we created chances after chances in the two friendly vs when we were struggling to create anything vs palace.


This is slot talking about how team changed their approach vs pool and now they need more set pieces to score.

 
Theres a lot of information here and its very positive.


 
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Utter nonsense. Sorry Bob, but I suggest you go and watch Liverpool play (for example). They play in a very similar set of circumstances as us, same league, same opponents. Same tactics of others sitting back against them - and they move the ball fast. Chase down the opponents at speed to win the ball back, and then do not spend the entire game passing between virgil and konate. Instead they actually look to move the ball progressively at speed.
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They abandoned this in the last 10 minutes last game. Not sure they were pressing for a result, the way they played out of the back could have been any Chelsea game for the last 12 months. Similarly, for the winning goal, we were able to play around them at a canter because not one of their midfield or forwards bar Szoboszlai was interested in pressing with intention.

Even our build-up to the winner, as impressive as it looked, was entirely reactive rather than creative, reacting to Liverpool's press rather than trying to draw them out of position. As pointed out elsewhere, if Caicedo doesn't go off-script at the start of the move by playing the ball between two markers, the move fails before it even begins.

Of course, it cost Liverpool the game. The difference is it was a bad 10 minutes for them, but our default for 90 minutes every game.

 
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They abandoned this in the last 10 minutes last game. Not sure they were pressing for a result, the way they played out of the back could have been any Chelsea game for the last 12 months. Similarly, for the winning goal, we were able to play around them at a canter because not one of their midfield or forwards bar Szoboszlai was interested in pressing with intention.

Even our build-up to the winner, as impressive as it looked, was entirely reactive rather than creative, reacting to Liverpool's press rather than trying to draw them out of position. As pointed out elsewhere, if Caicedo doesn't go off-script at the start of the move by playing the ball between two markers, the move fails before it even begins.

Of course, it cost Liverpool the game. The difference is it was a bad 10 minutes for them, but our default for 90 minutes every game.
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My point wasn’t in relation to a specific game. It is a general issue.

Generally speaking…. They face the same spoiler tactics (deep sitting teams) as we do.

Generally speaking…they have lay much faster with less pissing around at the back than we do - which generally speaking, allows them to be better at breaking teams down than we are.

There are always specific instances of things going wrong, but generally speaking, we need to move the ball faster, which pulls opponents out of position, which in turn makes space for others to exploit.

 
There is a simple way to make our offense faster. Just let the player move around and make forward run. The offense will look much faster and you will think Maresca can't coach.

 
There is a simple way to make our offense faster. Just let the player move around and make forward run. The offense will look much faster and you will think Maresca can't coach.
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You are someone who always sees things in Binary.

Our attack should not be a tap that is either on or off. None of us are asking the team to be reckless and storm forward in a stupid and careless manner, without consequences.

There is something called balance. And what we are asking for is exactly that.... some balance. It is really simple.

1) Stop the 500 passes between CBs every game.

2) Pass the ball progressively and faster, to help move defenders out of position.

3) Let the players play at a faster tempo. It is clear that we are better when we play faster. At times, it feels like the slow stagnant play from the back makes the players fall asleep from being so bored.

 
You are someone who always sees things in Binary.

Our attack should not be a tap that is either on or off. None of us are asking the team to be reckless and storm forward in a stupid and careless manner, without consequences.

There is something called balance. And what we are asking for is exactly that.... some balance. It is really simple.

1) Stop the 500 passes between CBs every game.

2) Pass the ball progressively and faster, to help move defenders out of position.

3) Let the players play at a faster tempo. It is clear that we are better when we play faster. At times, it feels like the slow stagnant play from the back makes the players fall asleep from being so bored.
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Binary? 😂😂😂

The one who actually think binary is you. Football is not about playing slow or fast. There is no scroll or button that manager press or drag that say fast and slow.

If you want to pass forward, you want to create imbalance. You want to create space and passing lane so you can pass forward.

How do you do that? You want to move the opp by using dribbling, movement, sideway pass. The more you do this the more you can move the ball forward faster.

View attachment 35053

I am just going to use this screenshot. You can scream at your CB to pass the ball forward, they will think that you are stupid. All the passing lane is blocked.

 
Binary? 😂😂😂

The one who actually think binary is you. Football is not about playing slow or fast. There is no scroll or button that manager press or drag that say fast and slow.

If you want to pass forward, you want to create imbalance. You want to create space and passing lane so you can pass forward.

How do you do that? You want to move the opp by using dribbling, movement, sideway pass. The more you do this the more you can move the ball forward faster.

View attachment 35053

I am just going to use this screenshot. You can scream at your CB to pass the ball forward, they will think that you are stupid. All the passing lane is blocked.
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Come on bob…. you do not create space or goal scoring chances (for us!) by passing slowly sideways between our CBs. It doesn’t happen. Opposition sit deep and are very happy for our defenders to have all the possession - because it doesn’t hurt them.

 
Binary? 😂😂😂

The one who actually think binary is you. Football is not about playing slow or fast. There is no scroll or button that manager press or drag that say fast and slow.

If you want to pass forward, you want to create imbalance. You want to create space and passing lane so you can pass forward.

How do you do that? You want to move the opp by using dribbling, movement, sideway pass. The more you do this the more you can move the ball forward faster.

View attachment 35053

I am just going to use this screenshot. You can scream at your CB to pass the ball forward, they will think that you are stupid. All the passing lane is blocked.
Click to expand...
I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.

 
I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.
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yep - spot on.

 
This is why a player like Lavia is so important (especially with Cole Palmer out), because he has the ability to move the ball forward and find team mates even when space is tight. Too many of our players (Gusto being a prime example), take the easy option and even when in a good position, will just pass the ball back or sideways. Maybe under instruction from Maresca but equally because they just don't have the ability to drop their shoulder and beat an opponent with a bit of skill. But against Liverpool, we were a lot more positive and even more so when Lavia and Estaveo were on the pitch.

 
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I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.
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Didn’t see us play with a sweeper against Liverpool.

Both fullbacks played traditionally. Cucurella the one who made inverted runs.

 
I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.
Click to expand...
The big difference is that Liverpool sought to actively press us, and which resulted in a (good) reaction from the team. This is why I don't buy Maresca's nonsense about control, because what we do with possession is apparently entirely dictated by our opponent.

I agree with @Bob stark about dribbling, side ways passing etc to make passing lanes. The problem is, as @nonotnowjim points out, we do all those things so painfully slowly that it cripples any chance of it being effective and I would add, actually makes us less defensively sound because the opposition are not thinking in the back of the mind about our attacking threat. The single biggest problem is we move the ball slowest where there is least risk (defence/keeper), unless we react to the opposition's press.

 
The big difference is that Liverpool sought to actively press us, and which resulted in a (good) reaction from the team. This is why I don't buy Maresca's nonsense about control, because what we do with possession is apparently entirely dictated by our opponent.

I agree with @Bob stark about dribbling, side ways passing etc to make passing lanes. The problem is, as @nonotnowjim points out, we do all those things so painfully slowly that it cripples any chance of it being effective and I would add, actually makes us less defensively sound because the opposition are not thinking in the back of the mind about our attacking threat. The single biggest problem is we move the ball slowest where there is least risk (defence/keeper), unless we react to the opposition's press.
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If you keep your structure, you will always play slower. If you want to play faster, you either need to add movement or by far the "easiest" way is to play better player on the ball.

I guarantee we will look better offensively playing

Delap

Neto - JP - Palmer - Estevao

Even if we play the same 3 diamond 3 structure.

 
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I actually saw instances during the Liverpool game with a very similar shape as this and yet we progressed the ball well.

The difference being that Badiashile made a progressive forward pass into what looks like Caicedo in your screenshot. Caicedo (or Fernandez) would make a first time pass out to Cucurella with the correct weight on the pass for the ball to reach his active foot, on the half turn. He would then open his body up and pass it on to Garnacho who was then running into space with the Liverpool midfield turned. This all in one rapid, fluid movement. Almost as if some form of pattern had taken place in training, instead of small sided games or 8v2s

Contrast this to any other game where Badiashile physically stops with the ball at his feet, waiting for an opposition player to present himself, to then shunt the ball sideways to Chalobah, or whoever.

Badiashile was really good against Liverpool, simply because of a change in attitude that put the whole team onto the front foot with a faster tempo. Even if we doubled back and worked our way round to the other side, there was still, generally, an underlying feeling of intent rather than the stiflingly boring game management approach.
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Give me the minute

 
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