Views on the squad (merged)

[Chippy]

Just looking at what the media are saying and a couple of things stood out for me and go a way to justifying my take on things (in my head anyway), the first being Ivan coming out and saying the players should stop thinking about themselves

BRANISLAV IVANOVIC has warned Chelsea’s warring stars to stop thinking about themselves and put the interests of the club first if they are to rescue their crumbling season.

The Serbian defender is the firstChelseaplayer to admit publicly to splits in the camp. He said: “We have a lot of things wrong at this club. But this is Chelsea. We have to solve these things. Players have to put the team first.â€

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/303881/303881

And the next has Carlo coming out and saying Andre is wrong to try to phase out the old guard too soon. (I don't like to critisise him as he'd still be here if it was my decision but this gos a way to explain why people complained he would never bring the youth through) .

CARLO ANCELOTTI piled more pressure on his under-fire successor Andre Villas-Boas last night by dismissing his attempted team rebuilding as too much, too soon.

Ancelotti, who won the League and FA Cup double as Chelsea manager, said Villas-Boas had made a serious error of timing in trying to phase out his older stars.

http://www.express.co.uk/posts/view/304103/Andre-Villas-Boas-is-in-the-wrong-says-Carlo-Ancelotti

Its a strange one for me, I loved Carlo and have nothing but respect for him but I felt because he didn't appear to have the bottle to make these changes (pressure of the need to challenge making it understandable to me) was why he never kept his Job and I felt had he weened a couple out and got the same sort of results he might have still been here.

 

[alan'82]

Alan,

I understand your take on this but really can't see why you would say "I really wished he tried to get those senior guys on board", I have no doubt he has tried, would he even have Frank on the Bench if he wasn't hoping to get him on board?.

He has likely tried to explain to Frank (like someone needs to) that he is going to play a lesser part here and its possible that Frank thinks he should play every game...also the big chance that we would be taking on letting AVB bring in his own choice of players is exactly the reason Roman brought him in and a lot of the reason a lot of fans wanted Carlo out.

Most were happy that a young ambitous Manager was coming in who had showed real promise at Porto and could build his own team in a similar style, thats what Roman bought into, thats obviously what was discussed when he was interviewed and on that premise, that is exactly what he should be given time to do.

Until he does get the players in for his style, until he either changes the minds of the players not on board or gets rid of them, we won't know how good he can be.

Making a choice between the Manager and a couple of players, even Legends if that is the case here, for me is down to which is doing the Job for the team...the manager is givinng his instructions (his Job) if the players are not trying to carry his instructions out or undermining him, then they are the problem and not doing their Job.

On top of this if it is the "old guard" or some of them we are supposed to be looking to the future and at best players like Frank, Drogba (although I don't feel he has a problem) Essien, Cole really have at best a couple of seasons of playing at the top level and really thats being generous at the top end of the premiership and you would be expecting whichever ones stayed to be playing much lesser parts.

The Manager however was brought in to refresh the squad and hopefully be around to see the fruits of his labours.

To be honest with you Chippy,maybe Andre has tried to get those senior guys on board as it were,we don't really know.

But if what happend to Nico & Alex is a example of what happens to senior players who don't get his methods/ideas,then maybe express their frustrations,then I wonder just how good he is at it!.

Seeing Torres come deep to pick up the ball on so many occasions, has put Nico's years here into a new light for me.

Thing is,even if they don't 'get' him or his ideas,for this season at least,he's 100% stuck with them,he simply has to bite his tongue & just get on with them as much for his benefit as the clubs.

I have to question that if he does clash with these players,if there is a 'rift',why aren't they given the same treatment as Alex & Nico were?.

As senior players,they will be well aware of what they can & cannot do.If Andre is asking them to try something new & they sruggle,I find it a little bit hard to criticize them & them alone.

I think this situation more than any other will cause a problem,players with this level of experience will soon lose faith with a manager (however young or old), if he continues to use players with tactics that just aren't working for them, or the team.

I really do feel that even these senior guys would concede their place in the team (they may not be happy, but), if the replacement players were doing a better job of implementing Andres ideas.

But on reccent evidence,there not really,are they?.

Sorry mate if this post sounds like drivel & makes no sense!....I'm not really that good at putting my point across on one of these pesky laptop thingy's.

 

[Chippy]

To be honest with you Chippy,maybe Andre has tried to get those senior guys on board as it were,we don't really know.

I think Frank starting yesterday as Captain and playing 90 minutes with Essien and Cole should show he is trying his best to get them on board and not sulking and keeping them on the bench.

But if what happend to Nico & Alex is a example of what happens to senior players who don't get his methods/ideas,then maybe express their frustrations,then I wonder just how good he is at it!.

Its my belief (and may be wrong) that Nicholas and Alex put in Tranfer requests, I don't know what the attitude was towards the Manager but if it was less than respectful and they slapped in requests then he done the right thing by me.

Seeing Torres come deep to pick up the ball on so many occasions, has put Nico's years here into a new light for me.

Thing is,even if they don't 'get' him or his ideas,for this season at least,he's 100% stuck with them,he simply has to bite his tongue & just get on with them as much for his benefit as the clubs.

Biting his tongue is ok but then if they are not following his instructions, if they are undermining him, why should he not be truthful (strange concept in Football I know) and say its not all sweetness and light in the dressing room?

I have to question that if he does clash with these players,if there is a 'rift',why aren't they given the same treatment as Alex & Nico were?.

Maybe because they haven't put in ransfer requests and he sees them as part of the future if they can knuckle down?

As senior players,they will be well aware of what they can & cannot do.If Andre is asking them to try something new & they sruggle,I find it a little bit hard to criticize them & them alone.

Why is it hard? if Andre has been given the Job of changing the style of play and he trys to do his Job, he will givethem instructions to play in a different way...if they try to do their Jobs, they will listen and do their best to adhere to his instructions. I would say if they are struggling, they should train harder and not complain if they don't start games.

I think this situation more than any other will cause a problem,players with this level of experience will soon lose faith with a manager (however young or old), if he continues to use players with tactics that just aren't working for them, or the team.

If itseasier to lose faith with the Manager and see him lose his Job because they can't adjust to his tactics then its possible they are not trying hard enough because they think they know where the buck will stop (I don't say this is the case but it or something close to it is possible).

I really do feel that even these senior guys would concede their place in the team (they may not be happy, but), if the replacement players were doing a better job of implementing Andres ideas.

But on reccent evidence,there not really,are they?.

On eveidence early on some of these senior players were not performing well themselves, maybe the players that have played ahead of them have not quite got the tactics right themselves but are more willing to do as the Manager says so will be picked on the assumption they are his best bet for playing the style hes trying to play (I'm not saying it has worked but maybe that is because they are not good enough)

Sorry mate if this post sounds like drivel & makes no sense!....I'm not really that good at putting my point across on one of these pesky laptop thingy's.

It does it sound like pure drivel and makes no sense at all....sadly I probably outdone the drivel factor by twenty percent in my reply

What I mean to do is put across that there are two ways of looking at these things and a Manager with belief in his tactics (as I am sure we all hope is what we have) needs the players no matter how well established and respected to follow his instructions regardless of if they think they know better...for me there are no excuses for them not to and I think if they don't they are in the wrong.

If his tactics are bad and they try their best to carry them out, he will be sacked on his own worth, if they don't try they will have got him sacked and if they try and it falls into place...well, I know which scenario I prefer,

 

[alan'82]

It does it sound like pure drivel and makes no sense at all....sadly I probably outdone the drivel factor by twenty percent in my reply

What I mean to do is put across that there are two ways of looking at these things and a Manager with belief in his tactics (as I am sure we all hope is what we have) needs the players no matter how well established and respected to follow his instructions regardless of if they think they know better...for me there are no excuses for them not to and I think if they don't they are in the wrong.

If his tactics are bad and they try their best to carry them out, he will be sacked on his own worth, if they don't try they will have got him sacked and if they try and it falls into place...well, I know which scenario I prefer,

Great reply Chippy, unfortunatly I'm afraid I'm going to reply with even 'more' drivel.(& badly spelt drivel at that!)

He played Lamps as captain yesterday,maybe as a 'peace' offering,I don't know.But with 2/3 rds of the season gone, the saying 'bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted' springs to mind.

Just imagine if he had made this (possible) 'peace' offer at the start of the season?,things would be much,much different now (imo),but,still better late than never.I guess he might have the Napoli tie in mind.

As for Alex & Nico,fine,if they don't want to be part of the clubs future then why not arrange transfers.But my point is,there is a better way to handle the situation than 'banning' them from the first team facilities.

I've witnessed exactly that type of thing happen in workplaces before,done by managers under stress & belive me,it just creates such a negative vibe & causes divisions within a 'team' enviruoment.

As for players 'training harder' to follow Andre instructions,well bearing in mind the trophies they've won as players in a team,the awards they have recieved as individuals,maybe their well aware of what they are capable of after all these years!.Maybe its more a case of 'just can't do what he asks' rather than 'won't do it'.

If he needs to get 5-10 players in that can work his system at the expense of the senior guys then fine, if the club backs him,then so be it.But those guys are not going to arrive this week, so he's stuck with the old boys for now & until the season ends.

I always thought the sign of a 'good' manager was someone who could point out your b*lls-up's & give you a bollocking,while at the same time,making you feel you were the best in the world at your job!.

Maybe Andre needs to practice this (for the rest of the season at least),because unless you use a mallet,square pegs tend not to fit into round holes.

He can talk/shout/moan to the players (& Roman) as much as he likes in training or the dressing room, but as managers across the world know,once those guys have crossed the white line onto the pitch,his future is in their hands.Its just the way of the modern game,(sh*t, I know).

 

[Chippy]

Great reply Chippy, unfortunatly I'm afraid I'm going to reply with even 'more' drivel.(& badly spelt drivel at that!)

He played Lamps as captain yesterday,maybe as a 'peace' offering,I don't know.But with 2/3 rds of the season gone, the saying 'bolting the stable door after the horse has bolted' springs to mind.

Frank has started a fair amount of games and although hes still scored a fair amount of goals there were times people were salling for him to sit a couple out, I don't think it was peace offering I think it was more an honest Manager putting Frank in to a game where as he hadn't played much of late his fitness and hunger would be high, it worked well.

Just imagine if he had made this (possible) 'peace' offer at the start of the season?,things would be much,much different now (imo),but,still better late than never.I guess he might have the Napoli tie in mind.

He played Frank at the start of the season and perhaps it was not until Frank had a few off games that he decided he didn't like the methods and started to unsettle things.

As for Alex & Nico,fine,if they don't want to be part of the clubs future then why not arrange transfers.But my point is,there is a better way to handle the situation than 'banning' them from the first team facilities.

There would be a better way but if we are guessing at the reasons then maybe these two were unsettleing other players or easily influenced players and it was for the best.

I've witnessed exactly that type of thing happen in workplaces before,done by managers under stress & belive me,it just creates such a negative vibe & causes divisions within a 'team' enviruoment.

It possibly does but weighed up in the Managers mind he done what he thought was best in this situation, a situation your nor know too much about and we could both site times in our lives we have witnessed thigs either way and be no nearer to the real situation here.

As for players 'training harder' to follow Andre instructions,well bearing in mind the trophies they've won as players in a team,the awards they have recieved as individuals,maybe their well aware of what they are capable of after all these years!.Maybe its more a case of 'just can't do what he asks' rather than 'won't do it'.

Maybe thats why he plays other players in their places sometimes? although I doubt old dog and new trick would fit well with players of this quality.

If he needs to get 5-10 players in that can work his system at the expense of the senior guys then fine, if the club backs him,then so be it.But those guys are not going to arrive this week, so he's stuck with the old boys for now & until the season ends.

Hes also stuck with the Job he has been given and the changes hes been brought in to make, if he keeps everything the same we could have a repeat of Carlos last season with all the same moaning, no new style and aging players not wanting to try a new set of tactics next season.

I always thought the sign of a 'good' manager was someone who could point out your b*lls-up's & give you a bollocking,while at the same time,making you feel you were the best in the world at your job!.

I don't think any of the players that have been hinted at as being against these new tactics have a lot of problem believing in their own ability, if they are as seasoned and sure of what they can and can't do as you just said, maybe they don't need that sort of approach...although I'm sure AVB has tried this approach.

Maybe Andre needs to practice this (for the rest of the season at least),because unless you use a mallet,square pegs tend not to fit into round holes.

If all Managers felt that was always the case, I think a lot of good players might have missed out along the way, Its not square and round its doing as your told or not for me.

He can talk/shout/moan to the players (& Roman) as much as he likes in training or the dressing room, but as managers across the world know,once those guys have crossed the white line onto the pitch,his future is in their hands.Its just the way of the modern game,(sh*t, I know).

That is the shame isn't it, he could have them looking great in training, listening to all his instructions and then they cross that white line.

We are arguing over a lot of hearsay and real Drivel, I wouldn't be surprised if Frank and Andre could look at these possibilities we put up and laugh themselves stupid. Neither of us have any idea of the reasons behind most of this and we could type a list of maybe this and maybe that all day long.

At the end of the day you likely don't like Boas and I think he deserves time, deserves players to do as he tells them and deserves Respect.

 

[alan'82]

That is the shame isn't it, he could have them looking great in training, listening to all his instructions and then they cross that white line.

We are arguing over a lot of hearsay and real Drivel, I wouldn't be surprised if Frank and Andre could look at these possibilities we put up and laugh themselves stupid. Neither of us have any idea of the reasons behind most of this and we could type a list of maybe this and maybe that all day long.

At the end of the day you likely don't like Boas and I think he deserves time, deserves players to do as he tells them and deserves Respect.

Yep Chippy, you're probably right.

I still would keep Andre in the job for the rest of the season & make the (very important decisions) in the summer,irrespective of what happens from now 'till then.We're not troubled by relegation after all!.

Personally I don't dislike the guy,(why would I?) & respect his achivements,but, when he came out with those 'title is beyond us' comments after the Villa home defeat,just 19 games into the season,that was pretty much 'game over' for me.

Even if its what he believes,(& maybe true) you absolutely must,without fear,KEEP GOING TO THE END,without question or doubt.

He pretty much burned his bridges with me with those comments,but irrespective of who's in charge,like the rest of us,I just want the club to give their best.

Still,onwards & upwards hopefully .

 

[Chippy]

Yep Chippy, you're probably right.

I still would keep Andre in the job for the rest of the season & make the (very important decisions) in the summer,irrespective of what happens from now 'till then.We're not troubled by relegation after all!.

Personally I don't dislike the guy,(why would I?) & respect his achivements,but, when he came out with those 'title is beyond us' comments after the Villa home defeat,just 19 games into the season,that was pretty much 'game over' for me.

Even if its what he believes,(& maybe true) you absolutely must,without fear,KEEP GOING TO THE END,without question or doubt.

He pretty much burned his bridges with me with those comments,but irrespective of who's in charge,like the rest of us,I just want the club to give their best.

Still,onwards & upwards hopefully .

I don't like a defeatest attitude in anything unyet I certainly wouldn't let it influence my judgement of a Manager of the team I love to any extent, I don't like things a lot of people say, players, coaches mates whatever but everybody has their own way of dealing with things and maybe his was to try to take pressure of himself and the team in the realistic knowledge we just are not good enough this year and for nobody to be surprised if we didn't win the title...I would have been surprised if we did but my own thoughts are its not over until the chubby birds at least finished her scales.

I noticed many on here had given up on third quite a while back, fourth even and they might be right but I'm still happy the Gooners won today and relish the battle with them to catch the scumbags.

Maybe you'll forgive Andre for his honest but uninspiring words if he keeps his job and we get off to a flyer next season and he comes out six games in and says we're gonna win the quad.

Onwards and upwards as you say mate.