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Man City Charges

Look at Newcastle. Wealthiest owners in football. Should be able to build a side that challenges for the biggest honours with their bottomless pit of cash but instead have to sell key players to the Arsenal, and even to Spurs, so they don't get in to trouble.

Or Villa. Win the Europa league, make champions league but have to sell off their best players to United, Arsenal and yes even us, so they don't get punished.

Rules set in place to protect Arsenal, United, Liverpool and even Spurs.

Cities rule braking was revealed by a mystery hacker right? I wonder who gave incentives for them to go after City....
 
I don’t subscribe to the notion that it was just the top or elite clubs or their supporters that opposed Abramovich like spending. Most of the other clubs hated and were against it just as much, if not more so. They were just as jealous and I guess they never envisioned it happening to them. And apart from City and arguably Newcastle (where it hasn’t worked out), in over 25 years it hasn’t.

I clearly remember City fans very much being part of the “you’ve ruined football” brigade. Not cheering us on and saying ‘go stick it to the elite’. They definitely didn’t like us buying Wright-Phillips to stick in a store cupboard in case of an emergency.

And our success under Abramovich wasn’t exactly the stuff of Robin Hood was it? We just added our name to that list of United and Arsenal for a while. It didn’t do Palace or Stoke any favours. It was just another club buying their best player.

Anyway, the whole thing is an unedifying mess. I don’t really know what’s ‘fair’ or how to make it fair. But rules are rules and breaking them is breaking them.
 
axman2526 said:
Now am I right in remembering that, both FFP style rules at home and in Europe, were bought in to place to "solve the Roman Abramovic" problem? That's how I believe this all started.

The media, the football authority and the established darling clubs did not like a billionaire coming in at one of the unfavourable clubs and making them one of the biggest competitors for top prizes?

Had the rules been in place before he came in Roman would not have been able to do what he did for us the way he did it, and we would have been robbed of some of the greatest moments of our lives because it upset the establishment.

As it is they got what they wanted later on, and eventually used a war to strip Roman of the club, years after handicapping him, denying him visas, stopping him coming to his club, and robbing him of billions of pounds illegally, though making it legal because they decide what is legal or illegal.

There is no way that the darling United, Arsenal and Liverpool have not broken rules like City and we have. Their hands are not clean, they are simply protected by the powers that be as the favoured sons.

So whike City now need to be punished for their rule breaking I have little respect for the law makers who made such rules to protect their favoured clubs, and because they hate what was allowed to happen with us because of Roman.
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I am not that is the total story of the origin of FFP and PSR.

For many years clubs have effectively been running on bankrupt finances. The result was to enter administration, recreate yourselves with the FC at the beginning of their names rather than the end and all local suppliers and traders end up bankrupted as well when the club defaulted on their debts. There were numerous instances of 11th hour salvage missions to save clubs and keep them going. Maidstone failed, Bury failed and collapsed.

With the funds available from the PL and Sky the parachute payments, or the running out of these, could have dire consequences on clubs that had geared up for the PL, yet still failed to retain their status. Derby County, WBA, Leeds, etc.

The move to entering administration then had a punitive component added, being an additional points deduction, but this was still a punishment of consequence rather than fiscal management.

Within this environment there was the Salisbury ricin poisoning and the further deterioration of the relationship with Russia and Putin.

Therefore the issues between the Government and Abramovich were absolute part of the backdrop to a PSR/FFP environment, it wasn't the sole driving factor. Far from it.
 
FFP was introduced by UEFA because Arsene Wenger cried about 'financial doping', and his compatriot Michel Platini made it a cause that gave him political credit with the then G-14. From the very start, FFP was about limiting the upward mobility of clubs to ensure they do not challenge the competitiveness of the established clubs.

PSR was introduced by the PL because it had no choice to mirror UEFA regulations. Scaremongering research like this article piggy-backed off growing sentiment to add to the moral panic. Chelsea and City are as much to blame as anyone else because when it came to it, we ensured the ladder was pulled up behind us.

Financial regulations were sold as a way to fight bankruptcy and administration but there is very little evidence they have worked to do so at any level of the English football pyramid. They have improved profitability, but not sustainability: Henley research 2024. As we have witnessed ourselves, the rules have created perverse incentives for debt-fuelled spending through lines of private credit.

The whole system is a house of cards, and a Manchester City collapse - seeing as they are not indebted to private credit - may yet be the end of the Premier League as we understand it.
 
Quick thoughts on the Man City thing:
  • All that legal firepower only to be found mostly guilty - haha
  • Permanently crippling Man City would almost certainly blow the solvency of the league itself; this will factor into any sanctions decision, and integrity will take a backseat to money.
  • A huge fine + relegation + nominal compensation to other clubs would be the best outcome. The other clubs wanting more will be cutting the nose off to spite their financial face.
  • Man City might be guilty, but they have the resources and incentive to challenge the system itself - and potentially win given the changed legal context since financial self-regulation was brought in
 
Best punishment I can think of with minimum impact of the games past and future would be stripping cities ownership of the club. Take it from them, they get no money from it and the powers that be have to find new owners to look after the club and run it the right, legal way.

Cities fans, players and most of the employees did not do anything wrong. They don't deserve to be punished. The owners and directors involved do.

Ban them from the sport.
 
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The Rising Sun said:
City should have been allowed to spend the owners money.
We did it and broke into the elite.
City could only do the same by breaking regulations that were introduced to prevent anyone else challenging the then top powerful clubs. The rules are there to protect Arsenal, United and Liverpool. Wenger banged on about "financial doping" when we started winning trophies. FFP?? It's never been fair, the usual suspects have a financial advantage and they'll do anything to protect it.
Without that City spending we would probably be looking at Arsenal going for their 4th title in a row this season . City also prevented a few Liverpool titles.

Before we spent Roman's millions, United Arsenal were the only Premier League title winners in the previous 9 seasons

2004-05Chelsea
2003-04Arsenal
2002-03Manchester United
2001-02Arsenal
2000-01Manchester United
1999-00Manchester United
1998-99Manchester United
1997-98Arsenal
1996-97Manchester United
1995-96Manchester United
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We can never know how things would have gone if City weren't financially doping. The entire history of the league would have been different. We can't just say Arsenal would be on their 4th title in a row or Liverpool would have won a few more titles, because things wouldn't have played out exactly the same way.
 
Scott Harris said:
We can never know how things would have gone if City weren't financially doping. The entire history of the league would have been different. We can't just say Arsenal would be on their 4th title in a row or Liverpool would have won a few more titles, because things wouldn't have played out exactly the same way.
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And therein is the problem with just handing out leagues and cups to the runners up.

You do that and you make the competitions worthless Imo.
 
axman2526 said:
Best punishment I can think of with minimum impact of the games past and future would be stripping cities ownership of the club. Take it from them, they get no money from it and the powers that be have to find new owners to look after the club and run it the right, legal way.

Cities fans, players and most of the employees did not do anything wrong. They don't deserve to be punished. The owners and directors involved do.

Ban them from the sport.
Click to expand...
I think this is a likely outcome, even the most sensible one, but I'm not sure it's the best one all things considered.

Remove City's ownership group and they will be replaced by an American private equity consortium, changing the balance of power and the nature of the PL irrevocably. Like it or not, City remain the biggest bulwark against the private equity invasion of UEFA and English football.
 
SydneyChelsea said:
I think this is a likely outcome, even the most sensible one, but I'm not sure it's the best one all things considered.

Remove City's ownership group and they will be replaced by an American private equity consortium, changing the balance of power and the nature of the PL irrevocably. Like it or not, City remain the biggest bulwark against the private equity invasion of UEFA and English football.
Click to expand...
Not sure there is a good one mate. Whatever the action taken there will be major issues.
 
axman2526 said:
Best punishment I can think of with minimum impact of the games past and future would be stripping cities ownership of the club. Take it from them, they get no money from it and the powers that be have to find new owners to look after the club and run it the right, legal way.

Cities fans, players and most of the employees did not do anything wrong. They don't deserve to be punished. The owners and directors involved do.

Ban them from the sport.
Click to expand...
If you strip out middle east money and interest in our game it is the start of the collapse of the PL as we currently know it. It will end up like Serie A.
 
Scott Harris said:
We can never know how things would have gone if City weren't financially doping. The entire history of the league would have been different. We can't just say Arsenal would be on their 4th title in a row or Liverpool would have won a few more titles, because things wouldn't have played out exactly the same way.
Click to expand...
We'd have re-signed DeBruyne from Wolfsburg and won title after title.
 
2017....vvv

Last Thursday, in his press conference ahead of Arsenal's match against Bournemouth, Arsene Wenger said some remarkable things that received little attention, thanks to the powerful anaesthetic effects of the phrase "Financial Fair Play".

Wenger has always been one of the biggest advocates for FFP, for three main reasons. The first is an understandable resentment that clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City could suddenly leapfrog Arsenal simply because they were taken over by billionaires.
 
2017....vvv

Last Thursday, in his press conference ahead of Arsenal's match against Bournemouth, Arsene Wenger said some remarkable things that received little attention, thanks to the powerful anaesthetic effects of the phrase "Financial Fair Play".

Wenger has always been one of the biggest advocates for FFP, for three main reasons. The first is an understandable resentment that clubs like Chelsea and Manchester City could suddenly leapfrog Arsenal simply because they were taken over by billionaires.
Scott Harris said:
We can never know how things would have gone if City weren't financially doping. The entire history of the league would have been different. We can't just say Arsenal would be on their 4th title in a row or Liverpool would have won a few more titles, because things wouldn't have played out exactly the same way.
Click to expand...
I suppose the thinking is that City wouldn't have won those titles without financial doping and therefore it prevented whoever were runners up would have won it ?? You're right, it's difficult to prove outright though. Personally,I'm glad they prevented the usual suspects from dominating the league.

Edit... Sorry about including another post somehow in my reply
 
Wenger at it again in 2011...vvvv

Financial Dopers Chelsea Have Done It Again – Arsenal’s Fuming Wenger


February 2, 2011 By Angela Asante
Topics: ChelseaArsenalArsene WengerFernando TorresDavid LuizLiverpool
Chelsea’s astronomical money spending on the transfer window’s last day has got Arsenal’s Arsene Wenger completely irritated. The coach has accused Chelsea of being financial fair play traitors.
“Chelsea supported financial fair play but in the morning, they announce a £70M loss and in the afternoon, the buy £75M-worth players. Where is the logic in that?” asked the fuming Arsene Wenger while speaking to English news source The Sun.

“[Chelsea owner Roman Abramovich] has decided to put big money in, and that tells you more will come in the summer.”
 
I wonder why the PL was completely unaware that anything was dodgy at City until a young computer hacker from Portugal leaked City's documents to a German newspaper??

All those dodgy inflated sponsorship deals etc must have had some PL scrutiny??
 
WhiteWall said:
I am not that is the total story of the origin of FFP and PSR.

For many years clubs have effectively been running on bankrupt finances. The result was to enter administration, recreate yourselves with the FC at the beginning of their names rather than the end and all local suppliers and traders end up bankrupted as well when the club defaulted on their debts. There were numerous instances of 11th hour salvage missions to save clubs and keep them going. Maidstone failed, Bury failed and collapsed.

With the funds available from the PL and Sky the parachute payments, or the running out of these, could have dire consequences on clubs that had geared up for the PL, yet still failed to retain their status. Derby County, WBA, Leeds, etc.

The move to entering administration then had a punitive component added, being an additional points deduction, but this was still a punishment of consequence rather than fiscal management.

Within this environment there was the Salisbury ricin poisoning and the further deterioration of the relationship with Russia and Putin.

Therefore the issues between the Government and Abramovich were absolute part of the backdrop to a PSR/FFP environment, it wasn't the sole driving factor. Far from it.
Click to expand...
But the fact is, the authorities did nothing at all about a club's finances UNTIL Chelsea broke into the elite. Only then, and after Wenger's continual moaning was anything put in place to restrict spending. . And if spending is from a wealthy owner it doesn't put the club in financial jepordy anyway.
 
The Rising Sun said:
I wonder why the PL was completely unaware that anything was dodgy at City until a young computer hacker from Portugal leaked City's documents to a German newspaper??

All those dodgy inflated sponsorship deals etc must have had some PL scrutiny??
Click to expand...
When they reported having a higher revenue than Manchester United, I reckon a lot of people were suspicious lol.

Scott Harris said:
We can never know how things would have gone if City weren't financially doping. The entire history of the league would have been different. We can't just say Arsenal would be on their 4th title in a row or Liverpool would have won a few more titles, because things wouldn't have played out exactly the same way.
Click to expand...
Agreed, which is why this whole notion of title stripping and giving it to the runner-up never sat right with me. It's far more complex.

Not to defend City, but this is all because of a system engineered to cement Arsenal, United, and Liverpool permanently in position.
 
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