JUST...Who Are Chelsea's Greatest Ever Goal Scorers?

[c3blu]

I mentioned Greaves because we were talking purely about goals at the start of the thread even though i have never seen him play. If we are talking about great strikers and there contribution to the team/club depending where they played etc,and not only about goals per game then i would say hands down the gratest striker CFC has ever had is NO. 25.

GIANFRANCO ZOLA

 

[Brian M]

GIANFRANCO ZOLA

Now there's a 'great footballer'!

But back to the focus of the thread...

People can throw around any argument they like about who's better and who's crap, but in the case of a striker, stats do not lie. A striker either scores goals or he doesn't. And Jimmy did. And how. And like it or not, there's the rub.

PS: oh BOY is there ever gonna be a 'Jimmy is a Legend' article written for young Loz after all this hullabaloo. Consider yourself warned, good Shedenders all! Jimmy will be honoured amongst the pantheon of Chelsea legends in a way that will make sure his star shines until the ending of the world!

 

[barak81]

GIANFRANCO ZOLA

Now there's a 'great footballer'!

But back to the focus of the thread...

People can throw around any argument they like about who's better and who's crap, but in the case of a striker, stats do not lie. A striker either scores goals or he doesn't. And Jimmy did. And how. And like it or not, there's the rub.

PS: oh BOY is there ever gonna be a 'Jimmy is a Legend' article written for young Loz after all this hullabaloo. Consider yourself warned, good Shedenders all! Jimmy will be honoured amongst the pantheon of Chelsea legends in a way that will make sure his star shines until the ending of the world!

Thing is brian, kevin phillips used to get a lot of goals, as does darren bent now there have been several strikers over the years that could get goals, but not necaserily great football players. Just add deano sturige to that list quickly as well. Jimmy was limited. He had his strong points and boy were they strong, When he managed to get that shot on target in invariably went in. Close him down fast however and that shot never came in, put him under a little preshure and that shot more often that not was seen going in to orbit!

This is why Jimmy hasnt got a great goal scoring recored against the big clubs, or in europe or on the international stage. He has to many weekness in his game. Thats why i can only subscirbe to the good goal scorer and nice guy club. He may be a legand as in so much as he gave us somthing we didnt have at the time but he wont ever be considerd amoung the greats IMO. I doubt you would find his name any where near the top 10 or 20 of any greates forighner of all time poll.

 

[Nibs]

Well said Barak.

There are not many who would question JFH's goal scoring ability. He scored goals. It was what he was good at and fair play to him for that.

But to be looked upon as a Legend by a clubs supporters you have to do a lot more - especially nowadays. I, and I imagine most fans, want to see a players that will give everything every single time they put on that shirt. He might have scored loads of goals (and he has received more than enough credit for doing so over the years), but I very rarely if ever, saw him work his (huge) arse off like other players do. Even allowing for his limitations, you still never got the impression he was a team player. He always seemed to be out for himself. And looking back on his career and his significant lack of honours sums him up really.

JFH - great goal scorer but far from ever being a legend.

 

[just]

PS: oh BOY is there ever gonna be a 'Jimmy is a Legend' article written for young Loz after all this hullabaloo. Consider yourself warned, good Shedenders all! Jimmy will be honoured amongst the pantheon of Chelsea legends in a way that will make sure his star shines until the ending of the world!

We're all looking forward to it.

It will be the biggest work of fiction since "The Da Vinci Code".

 

[Barn]

Being considered a legend is largely down to fiction anyway.

A large number of people that are considered legends are only considered so because a lot of old people used to like them. In 20 years time, Jimmy will be considered a legend by Chelsea fans, because the opinion of the older fans (Just?) won't count any more, it will be about what the fans that joined in the late '90's thought that will count and they'll have stats to support them.

Legend status is far easier to reach than it should be.

 

[Elliott]

Jimmy is not quite a 'LEGEND', but should go down in folklaw as a fantastic goal-scorer if not for his goals against Spurs alone!

Especially the perfect hat-tick.

That was special.

 

[Liam]

Especially the perfect hat-tick. That was special.

Just dissected that hattrick once in a quite brilliant polemic. Just - any chance you could recreate that classic CSR moment?

Fat arse, wavy arms, too many goals.

There's your Jimmy entry.

I don't know why you're bothering Brian.

 

[Brian M]

I don't know why you're bothering Brian.

Well I guess then maybe I won't? The anticipation from the faithful doesn't exactly overwhelm me, so...

But, let me at least edit yours:

Jimmy - Chelsea Legend

Fat arse, wavy arms, too many goals and a perfect hatrick against Sp*rs.

PS: Just, fiction's what I do best. The truth is far too onerous.

 

[Blue Sun Tzu]

I can't believe that this debate is still going on. JFH a great scorer of goals but not a striker that anyone would want if they hope to win anything. End of.

 

[just]

I don't know why you're bothering Brian.

Well I guess then maybe I won't? The anticipation from the faithful doesn't exactly overwhelm me, so...

But, let me at least me edit yours:

Jimmy - Chelsea Legend

Fat arse, wavy arms, too many goals and a perfect hatrick against Sp*rs.

PS: Just, fiction's what I do best. The truth is far too onerous.

Brian, I'm afraid this has to come out of the cupboard and be waved in your direction

Liam is Jimmy's 2nd biggest fan after your good self. Really, really.

 

[g3.7]

I don't know why you're bothering Brian.

Well I guess then maybe I won't? The anticipation from the faithful doesn't exactly overwhelm me, so...

But, let me at least me edit yours:

Jimmy - Chelsea Legend

Fat arse, wavy arms, too many goals and a perfect hatrick against Sp*rs.

PS: Just, fiction's what I do best. The truth is far too onerous.

 

[Brian M]

The crux of this argument is, and has always been, between what makes a great 'striker', as opposed to what makes a great 'player'.

Basically, most people would agree that anyone who scores a goal every two games (give or take) over an extended period of time is indeed a great striker. I don't care who it is, that much is just plain common sense.

A great 'player' on the other hand, has infinitely more to offer than just the ability to bang in the goals. ('just the ability to bang in the goals...' Ha! As if that was an easy thing to do with any consistency!) Anyway, I think we'd all agree that Jimmy is not, by that definition, a great 'footballer'. Not like Zola was a great footballer. Or JT's a great footballer, etc.

To go back to my earlier cricket analogy, think of Jimmy like a great fast bowler. Can't bat for sh*t. So-so in the field. But by God you wouldn't want to be facing him when he had the new ball in his hand.

Jimmy's a fast bowler. NOT an all rounder. He's Bob Willis not Ian Botham (though they have similar sized arses!). And, to be honest, there's a need in the team for single minded pace men who you can count on to make a break through when the going gets tough; and there's also a need for the guy who can come in at number 5 and get you a quick-fire 50, AND take a few wickets when given the ball.

Both of these can be 'great' at what they do, and fill a very real need within the team. And both should be applauded by the fans, not ridiculed.

 

[loz]

That argument only stands up if you believe that a striker is only about goals and nothing else. I have never felt that way which is why I say he isn't a great striker or a great player.

Apart from maybe goalkeeper (where there are obvious restrictions on what they can contribute to the team as a whole) I don't think any position on the football pitch is so simplified that there is one major attribute that as long as they excel in can make them a 'great striker/winger/defender/' etc etc.

At the end of the day the name 'striker' is just a title you are either a great player or a good one, or average, or poor, or Titus Bramble. A defender can put in all the blood curdling thumping slide tackles in the world but if he offers little assistance defending corners then he will never be a great player. A winger can have all the trickery of some player G4 made up on Championship manager but if his ability to pass the ball to a team mate is erratic then he is just another Jesper Gronkjaer.

One thing I do notice you tend to slide away from Brian is a response to the often made charge that he never delivered on the international stage - is that really the sign of a great striker?

 

[Brian M]

One thing I do notice you tend to slide away from Brian is a response to the often made charge that he never delivered on the international stage - is that really the sign of a great striker?

Err, that'd be because I don't believe 9 goals from 23 games for his country is what you'd call a failure, Loz.

Indeed, if 1 goal every 2.55 international games means he's a failure then so be it. You're all right, and I'm wrong. My bad.

And if I am wrong, then heaven only knows what we should make of someone like Wayne Rooney. Who has scored 12 goals from 38 games for his country. Or 1 goal every 3.16 international games.

Stats never lie, mate. Not when strikers are concerned. They either score goals or they don't. And Jimmy scored for fun.

 

[loz]

The obsession with stats proving a point has to stop!!!! Especially if you don't scratch under the surface

Jimmy was never seen as a key striker for Holland and certainly never trusted to deliver in the games that count. He went to the 98 World Cup and kicked his heels for a few weeks then came home again.

His international goals came against:

Spain in a friendly

Denmark in a friendly

Germany in a friendly

Andora in a WC qualifer

Cyprus in a WC qualifier,

Belarus in a Euro Qualifier

he did get a WC goal in a draw with Portugal, (hell he even manegd to fail to score against Scotland!)

yes I know that is only 7 goals Ican't find reference to the other two however it is fair to say that other than the one against Portugal Jimmy, on the international front, scores in friendlies and against 'minnows'.

Even Hooijdonk was often ahead of him in the Dutch pecking order!

 

[Brian M]

Loz, where on Earth did you learn to argue? Martin Esslin University? The fact that a manager didn't think Jimmy was as good as another player at the time, has nothing whatsoever to do with the matter we're discussing. Or do I have to mention the great Zola, a man who - for reasons we never quite understood - was suddenly Mr. Substitute at Chelsea. And by God you or I would've put his name first on any teamsheet we drew up, if we'd been manager.

Nor, I hesitate to point out, does who Jimmy scored goals against have anything to do with the argument. Given a player can only score goals when he's playing and against the team he's playing against. Or am I missing something here and you're now apparently judging him because he didn't score against teams he didn't play against?

Oh, and want another fact or two to put Jimmy's 'failure' at international level in perspective? Great, let's go back to another great, shall we? Your friend and mine, Luca Vialli: who, wouldn't you know, scored 16 goals from 59 international games. Or 1 goal every 3.68 games.

Why don't you go and list the 43 'big' teams Luca didn't score against to show how crap he was? (and maybe throw in some teams he didn't actually play against for good measure!)

Still not convinced? What about Mark Hughes, 16 goals from 72 games for Wales. At a dire average of 1 goal every 4.5 games at international level.

Yup, if Jimmy's international record means he was a failure 'at the highest level', then Luca and Sparky must be residing somewhere on the 6th circle of hell with Chris Sutton and Alan Smith.

 

[loz]

It isn't just one international manager though is it - it was a number of them. it wasn't about one person's preference, it was about a number of them who looked at what Jimmy had to offer the the international team and realised 'Good club player, doesn't cut the mustard at the highest level)

We clearly learnt to argue at different schools, your school appeared to have handed out a calculator and some numbers and then shut the doors, pulled down the blinds and banned any discussion of anything but how many decimal places you should take PI to.

The point is that we can't judge Jimmy on his scoring record at the highest level and against the best teams because he simply wasn't deemed good enough to play in those games - that, in itself, says a lot more about his quality as a player, than a few goals he scored against in either meaningless friendlies or second rate internaitonal defences.

The fact that Luca made 59 international appearances despite having a worse scoring rate than Jimmy again emphaises the point that he was a far superior striker, he got selected even though he didn't score asa regularly whereas Jimmy got dropped. the same point can be made about Sparky. These are strikers who contributed toward the team far far more than what the abacus says they scored - Jimmy didn't. This is why they were not failures at international level, this is why stats mean very very little and why arguments that only use stats as their basis are flawed in the extreme.

kris Boyd - 10 games for Sscotland - 6 goals so far - blimey he is surely the greatest striker in the history of the game - why no ?50m bids in? The answer is becasue he is lazy, stands about, and when he doesn't score he contributes less than Pauly does when people are taking boxes down fom high shelves.

 

[Brian M]

kris Boyd - 10 games for Scotland - 6 goals so far - blimey he is surely the greatest striker in the history of the game - why no ?50m bids in? .

Err...because it's Scotland, mate...and any fool can score if they play for a pub team...

 

[loz]

Aargh I see so we do judge a players goals by who they are scored against - funny I thought someone once said that you shouldn't