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crap!! ill never understand why players like hat trick Scott Sinclair and now Mike arent kept! we dont need freakin £1.75m do we?? we couldnt buy David Villas beard trimmings for that!

why the hell dont we just loan him to Hamburg for 4 years with a recall clause built in just in case he does come good FFS...

sh*te!!

 
CFCCAN said:
Lucky our youth policy is on track! Mancienne gone and Borini about to leave...utter bo**ocks and I have said it all along this team does not have a youth policy because it doesn't have the patience, we breed youth to be traded or sold...not to play regularly in the first team as we would rather buy our way to the top.
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Arnesen's plan was always that we'd be delighted with ONE player per year to make the first team from the youth set-up. I think people are being unrealistic that large numbers of our youth side can establish itself in the first team at the expense of international class players.

Mancienne is clearly never going to be good enough for our first team, so to get decent money for him is good business. I'm sure we offered Borini the chance to stay but he turned us down so he is a free agent, so we'll get nothing for him.

We all have high hopes for the current batch of Bruma, PVA, Kakuta, Josh Mac, Sturridge and Bertrand, as we did for Sam Hutch (poor b*gger), but we have to sell eventually when the players do not reach the level required. Noone can say we didn't give lengthy experience to Di santo and Sinclair by sending them out on loan before they were sold, but they were hardly convincing at their loan clubs - and neither was Mancienne - so selling them is the right option, but it doesn't mean our youth policy is a total failure.

It doesn't help of course that managers here have such a short shelf-life that they can't take a gamble of youth, as missing out on trophies or the CL will cost them their job.

As it stands, six youngsters are on the fringes, with a couple having a genuine shot at a first team place next year. That's not bad at all.

 
Backbiter said:
Arnesen's plan was always that we'd be delighted with ONE player per year to make the first team from the youth set-up. I think people are being unrealistic that large numbers of our youth side can establish itself in the first team at the expense of international class players.

Mancienne is clearly never going to be good enough for our first team, so to get decent money for him is good business. I'm sure we offered Borini the chance to stay but he turned us down so he is a free agent, so we'll get nothing for him.

We all have high hopes for the current batch of Bruma, PVA, Kakuta, Josh Mac, Sturridge and Bertrand, as we did for Sam Hutch (poor b*gger), but we have to sell eventually when the players do not reach the level required. Noone can say we didn't give lengthy experience to Di santo and Sinclair by sending them out on loan before they were sold, but they were hardly convincing at their loan clubs - and neither was Mancienne - so selling them is the right option, but it doesn't mean our youth policy is a total failure.

It doesn't help of course that managers here have such a short shelf-life that they can't take a gamble of youth, as missing out on trophies or the CL will cost them their job.

As it stands, six youngsters are on the fringes, with a couple having a genuine shot at a first team place next year. That's not bad at all.
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Respecting your point of view, I disagree with your observations. It has been troubling during the Roman era that our youth have suffered in the name of silverware and ultimately the 'Holy Grail'. This owner lives for the moment and while I admire his enthusiasm he cannot live without a major trophy, i.e winning the title, FA Cup (although that has probably taking a back seat) and CL. The Carling Cup has now become a reserve game for the top teams so I don't count that. Given the strength of the top teams in both the EPL and Europe playing 2nd string players on a regular basis i.e. youth, is a non starter because any slip ups can see the difference between a trophy and nothing, and RA won't accept another trophyless season and as so rightly pointed out if the manager wants to keep his job he has to win, which means he has little time to integrate young players. Josh is an exception to the rule as he played in more than a dozen games, but he is very talented; many on this site however state that playing him at his age will be damaging to his future....I disagree. What happens if we sign Neymar? he is about the same age as Josh, so do we put a Brazilian International Player in the reserves, or do we loan him out or simply wrap him in cotton wool? If we sign another striker to replace Anelka, where does that leave Sturridge? Out on loan again...no Sturridge will be gone even though he scored more goals than Anelka, Torres and Drogba combined in the same amount of games. We have many very good young players...many are being groomed to be sold but not to be playing in the first team.....not with this owner anyway...let's see how many games the young players get next season. I will sincerely apologize if any, including Josh are regular starters

 
Shame for Mancienne. Arnesen obviously rated him. I'd prefer no sales until we appoint a manager or DOF. I'd also like us not to sell Mancienne or Cork until after the U21 Championships. Their value may increase markedly.

I've always liked Mancienne and always thought he was worth a spot, particularly given his versatility. Seems just the player to keep in the squad. But in the end it's a matter of whether you want to stick it out or play every week. Let's just hope we get a decent price for him.

 
CFCCAN said:
Respecting your point of view, I disagree with your observations. It has been troubling during the Roman era that our youth have suffered in the name of silverware and ultimately the 'Holy Grail'. This owner lives for the moment and while I admire his enthusiasm he cannot live without a major trophy, i.e winning the title, FA Cup (although that has probably taking a back seat) and CL. The Carling Cup has now become a reserve game for the top teams so I don't count that. Given the strength of the top teams in both the EPL and Europe playing 2nd string players on a regular basis i.e. youth, is a non starter because any slip ups can see the difference between a trophy and nothing, and RA won't accept another trophyless season and as so rightly pointed out if the manager wants to keep his job he has to win, which means he has little time to integrate young players. Josh is an exception to the rule as he played in more than a dozen games, but he is very talented; many on this site however state that playing him at his age will be damaging to his future....I disagree. What happens if we sign Neymar? he is about the same age as Josh, so do we put a Brazilian International Player in the reserves, or do we loan him out or simply wrap him in cotton wool? If we sign another striker to replace Anelka, where does that leave Sturridge? Out on loan again...no Sturridge will be gone even though he scored more goals than Anelka, Torres and Drogba combined in the same amount of games. We have many very good young players...many are being groomed to be sold but not to be playing in the first team.....not with this owner anyway...let's see how many games the young players get next season. I will sincerely apologize if any, including Josh are regular starters
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I don't think anyone frmo the youth team set up other than Josh and Sturridge will feature next year.

However, I completely agree with what BAckbiter has to say. Some people have unrealistic expectations on what we're going to achieve with our youth members breaking into the regular team. One a year is even a lofty ambition! Look around the other top teams even in the EPL and tell me how many of their Youth Products are playing regular first team footy? The only one that I can think of off the top of my head is Wilshere at Arsenal.

I don't think it's bad to have a youth team that's set up as a business and becomes self sufficient. If we get some players coming through, then they'll need to be exception talents. Personally I think Sinclair has reached his level with Swansea, maybe a Fulham, but certainly not a top 4. Same can be said of mancienne. I saw nothing of him to make me feel he'd make our first team. I have more hope for PVA, Bertrand, and maybe Bruma, then add in Josh and that's not a bad return out of our relatively new youth set up. Add in Chambolah, and Gokan Toure, and Clifford, and Mellis, and.....well, hope by now you are getting my point.

Scott

 
I think people need to realise that as long as occasionnaly a youth makes the first team and the other youths are pulling in enough money to break even/make a small profit when sold compared to the money we invest to bring youths in, thats a succesful youth system.

The situations where multiple youths break into a top clubs first team within a few years is rare..... with the huge expansion and investment in scouting networks by clubs across the board and heightebned expectation on first teams to win trophies, this is going to become even more rare.

 
1.75 million for an england international (established u21 and also a senior call up) is a joke, especially when considering his versatility. Many have said that he didnt do much to impress whilst out on loan, but realistically what could we expect given that he was at a club with one of the poorest defenses in the league. I would like to see an established player (like ashley cole for example) play in the wolves team and see how sharp he looks.

Chelsea are in the habit of offloading players who have not had a fair crack of the whip. Why could we not have given mancienne a few months and let him have a couple of games at RB? If he looked out of his depth then we could offload him in the jan transfer window. At least we would have known his true quality.

 
Ironic really when the only manager to give him anything resembling a chance was Huddink #swingsdoorsperhaps

 
nonotnowjim said:
Chelsea are in the habit of offloading players who have not had a fair crack of the whip. Why could we not have given mancienne a few months and let him have a couple of games at RB? If he looked out of his depth then we could offload him in the jan transfer window. At least we would have known his true quality.
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Agree to that and whats more frustrating is that we continue to keep squad players like Ferreira and Hilario who are definitely past their best and I am assuming we pay them pretty high wages too. For sure Mancienne and Cork could have been utilised last season (as squad players) when the squad looked thin but then again we loaned out all of them barring Josh. I honestly don't see any of the younger players apart from Josh making it to the first team. Its not that they aren't good enough its more about us not having the patience of giving them a run.

 
Story on BBC this morning, arnesen picked him up, good luck to him good decision I think

 
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CFCCAN said:
Lucky our youth policy is on track! Mancienne gone and Borini about to leave...utter bo**ocks and I have said it all along this team does not have a youth policy because it doesn't have the patience, we breed youth to be traded or sold...not to play regularly in the first team as we would rather buy our way to the top.
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That is the sad truth.

Not saying it is too much different from that at any top club, but it doesn't make it any less frustrating. You do wonder why any youngster would want to come into our academy, with the knowledge that unless they are the next Messi or Zidane, they have little chance in progressing to the senior squad because when need a replacement player we just go out and buy one rather than wait.

I still have hopes for a few of the youngsters we have on our books but it's almost as if they can't afford to ever have a bad game - at any level. For the record though, from what I saw of Mancienne, I think it was going to be hard for him to break through at any top club. He lacked a bit of consistency (which you expect in young players) but his main problem was no-one seem to know his best position. If Hamburg are after a good utility player they might have found one.

 
CFCCAN said:
Lucky our youth policy is on track! Mancienne gone and Borini about to leave...utter bo**ocks and I have said it all along this team does not have a youth policy because it doesn't have the patience, we breed youth to be traded or sold...not to play regularly in the first team as we would rather buy our way to the top.
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And thats totally different to every other team isnt it, we are definitely the only ones who does that......

This is the point of a self financing academy, to bring through players to sell who arent good enough for our first team, whilst looking for those elusive young players who can make it. Mancienne simply isnt good enough to play for us, nor were the others we have let go recently. Its as simple as that.

 
We have one of the top ten players in the world for every position, and we need to maintain that to stay where we are in English and European football. As a result youth players are only going to get a "fair crack of the whip" if they are exceptional talents and I don't think Mancienne falls into that category. I like him but he's not good enough for us - he's barely good enough for Wolves!

It is a shame because like many of you have said it would be really good to get a few players from the successful youth teams we've had over the last few years into the 1st team, but looking good at youth level is a million miles away from being good enough to challenge for major honours with the 1st team.

That said, I don't think we use enough of them often enough to really gage if they could fit in, but then I don't see them day in and day out at the training ground to say if any of them look good enough.

Best of luck to Mancienne though, hope he becomes an England regular somewhere down the line.

 
dkw said:
And thats totally different to every other team isnt it, we are definitely the only ones who does that......

This is the point of a self financing academy, to bring through players to sell who arent good enough for our first team, whilst looking for those elusive young players who can make it. Mancienne simply isnt good enough to play for us, nor were the others we have let go recently. Its as simple as that.
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I'll agree with you dkw that some seem to suggest that if we aren't going to field 8 youth team players in our first team we're not giving youth a chance. This is all a little like the reaction to Stoch leaving last season. Mancienne I like because he is pre-Roman academy. However, with so many in front of him it's difficult to see him getting the first team football he would like. With that in mind it's better we sold him for something than pay his wages and allow him to be on perpetual loan.

 
When a player is half a decade past youth age, and is no closer to playing regularly for his club, I think it's perfectly justifiable to sell them.

As for Borini, his sort of situation will always happen. His contract is due to expire, and he's not got many chances. Talented players who aren't very patient will always look to further their career elsewhere, and as much as it can frustrate a club and its fans, there needs to be a level of understanding. Admittedly we all would have liked to receive a genuine transfer fee, but there's nothing we can do about it now.

 
Didn't Borini make his mind up to leave just after the start of the season when he wasn't number 3 or 4

 
OK...so the last 4/5 posts have all agreed that realistically we can expect only 1 or or at the very best 2 young players to be added to the first team squad every so often...fair enough, I don't expect to 4 or 5 players making the squad either; and as some have suggested as I have, that our youth players are no more than bargaining chips or there to be sold and not to feed the first team over a number of years. So why does the club insist on telling everyone we have a youth policy and we want to give our younger players a chance..we have seen so many talented young players leave, some thrive i.e Sinclair while others struggle i.e Di Santos. Mancienne has been hot and cold last year but he was playing for Wolves FFS. I agree with the comment that we could give him a chance and see how he does, if he isn't good enough alongside Terry et al then off him in January....anyway, I guess if we can't have long term relationships with our managers what chance do our youth have?

 
But you know full well the abuse and vitriol that a lot of people post on here when we don't win, or even if we win but not convincingly. How do you truly think the match threads would go if we tried Mancienne alongside Terry for a few matches and didn't win them all playing stunningly good football?

 
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