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Ukraine 0 England 0 - football or insomnia?

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dkw said:
It wasnt great, but the result was what Hodgson was after so he set up to play a very pragmatic game. I thought only Cahill came out of the game with anything like his reputation intact, Cole was mostly decent after a shaky start, midfield was absolutely appalling, completely bereft of any creativity at all. Again I still dont know what Wilshire`s part is in an england shirt, he just doesnt seem to do anything anywhere. Walker was terrible, didnt know whether to show his winger inside or outside so did both, which was pretty impressive, and made Cahills display look even better as he had to cover him. Hart, what the hell has happened to him. Walcott was summed up by the 3 on 3 break in the 2nd half, just ran straight and erm, did nothing with it at the end.
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All that spot on although the first part is what always winds me up where England are concerned. It is ALWAYS a case of the result is far more important than the performance. Time after time we have to watch absolutely pathetic displays only to be told that the

0-0, 1-0 whatever....was just what we needed. At some point surely we should be trying to progress football wise or am I missing something here?

So we qualify for another tournament and come that tournament it will be all about getting out of the group stage so again the same old excuse of the result being important so ignore more examples of f**king awful football. Someone needs the balls to draw a line under this NOW. Agree with Just, say goodbye to the Lamps, Gerrards & co who have all had their day International wise. Only a few of the current crop deserve to stay in the frame and let's build for 2018 onwards.

That match last night really did make our 0-0 with Utd look positively enthralling!

 
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As myself and Barn have pointed out in our posts, it is not any single issue that needs to be addressed. It is a myriad of issues that needs to be addressed; the coaching of youngsters at grass roots level, the cream of english talent being given meaningful game time for the top clubs, (a quota system is the only way I can really forsee that happening). Possibly a 3 or 4 week winter break for the EPL where the national squad goes off en-masse for training sessions abroad. EPL clubs being forced to release selected players for the england national team for ALL fixtures, be it at full or u21 level, and heavy fines and points deductions being imposed if they do not. A forced change in the attitude and mindset of some players whereby if they refuse to play at u21 level they automatically recieve a lifetime ban from ever representing their country ever again. The FA appointing an England management panel of 3 or 4 people with complete autonomy and who collectively oversee everything to do with coaching, tactics and team selection at levels, Hoddle and Rednapp would be part of that management team if I had my way.

Unfortunately, I do not believe there is any chance of this culture change happening and we will continue to stumble on as we are.

 
England played not to get beat, they should be playing to win matches like these, i think Roy Hodgson is most certainly not the manager we need. I dunno what game he was watching after i watched the press conference after the game. I think it's pretty bad when we have to use players like Milner and Jagielka, although the latter had a good game. Players seem to get picked on names and reputation, and also the club they play for.

I also think we have no hope in Brazil, if we manage to get there.

 
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What made me unhappy was having to agree with this tweet from @thisisanfield

Is that the rest of the country realising why we didn't want Hodgson as #LFC manager? #hodgsonforengland

I know the guy had an injury hit squad and all that and Wiltshire is only half fit, but when the centre backs look your best attacking option something is wrong.

I did think Ash had a good game, all things considered

 
just said:
OK let me put my tin hat on because now I get really controversial.

I love Mr Frank Lampard. I love his committment to the cause and his passion for his country. Of course we all know not many England international players have that nowadays. And whilst I congratulate him on the achievement of 100 caps, I sincerely hopes he never plays another full England game ever again. For Frank needs to go if there is to be a real revolution to save the Engerland national football team. As does Gerrard. As does Ashley Cole. As does Woy Hodgson. As well as our Dad's Army we also have far too many players that flatter to deceive such as Theo Walcott. Theo needs to have a testicle implant because it appears that, however long we wait, he isn't ever going to grow a pair. And players like James Milner and Ricky Lambert shouldn't be let anywhere near an international airport let alone an international football team.
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I say let's rely on the new breed.  Wilshire, Walcott, Walker.  If only they hadn't been held back last night by those sh*t old men.

 
Unusual, you are normally one of the poster I most like reading ES and sarcasm is not usually your thing.

Your suggestions and thoughts on what can be done to halt the downward spiral of the England national team are most welcome.

 
For me, Hodgson is an OK manager for the short run as is able to get second rate teams to get the required results and occasionally nab a shock result. We are like the West Ham of the international world, so draws away to Newcastle (last night's equivalent) are fine. But after the World Cup (I think we will qualify) he has to go.

Our problems stem from the 2010 World Cup. There had to be a big overhaul then, with us targeting the 2018 World Cup. Capello really should have gone and we should have revamped the FA. That didn't happen and we are 4 years behind we should be.

Our grassroots at a professional level is decent, I would say our academies are in the top 10-15 in the world, but a lot of the talent produced is imported. What really concerns me is our grassroots at an amateur level. It is just dire. Africa's grassroots level is more advanced than ours in that respect. This aspect needs to change first. We need a society change more than anything. Winning isn't everything and I can't remember when I last saw a kid kicking it about on the street and barely see young one's having a casual kick about in a park. I quit my university league team when the captain started shouting to me when I passed to the centre mid (who was open) when I didn't hoof it down the line (I was at RB). Our football culture is not enjoyable to play in.

Turned into a bit of a rant, I hope my point was too diffused.

 
To me its obvious what the problem is. Look at spain how long have the mainstay of there squad been playing together its almost telepathic when they play together. Us on the other hand have some good individuals who meet up 4 days before a match. instead of southgate get either some dutch or spanish coaches in for the under 21s make them meet for 2hours everyweek and get them used to playing together and learning to keep the flaming ball. i know your gona say there clubs will never agree to it but thats what its gona take.

 
Soz for repeating myself from other thread. The answer, imo, is to play internationals with the pace and attitude shown in our domestic leagues. Why do we change our style and pace? Don't alter that, let the opposition try and deal with it.

 
I think part of the problem is that players get hyped up after 10 decent games for their club.

Going back to the late 80's Gazza was ripping it up for the barcodes and then spuds, he didn't get an instant call up, in fact before Italia 90 he wasn't a certainty to get in the squad let alone the starring role he subsequantly had, why? Because Bobby Robson knew that you needed to bring players in slowly, and not thrust them in the spotlight and pile pressure onto them.

These days players are hailed as the next best thing after a relatively short spell in their own clubs first team.

Then we have players being picked who have no place being near the international scene, and that comes down to the fact that English players are being overlooked at a younger age and the instant success that the Premier League demands, I agree with others we need a quota system in the PL, I think even if you said that number was 4 players had to be English we'd see a massive improvement in the national side.

The style of play last night (or lack of) was shocking, and if we consider a draw in that style to acceptable, then we really are in trouble, in cricketing terms we played out a losing draw last night. The worst part is that Hodgson had the gall to come out and have a pop at people criticising that showing.

Roy is not the answer, and maybe Hoddle is to far out of the game now, but I think a pairing of Redknapp and Hoddle would be able to get even this group of players playing to a better standard.

Anyway it's the same thing everyone has been saying for the last 7 years, lets face it we're not very good and thats summed up by a management team that celebrate a point in Ukraine when 10 years ago that would have been unthinkable.

 
Just a thought, we had more English players playing regularly for top teams 20 years ago and seemed to be encountering many of the problems we face today. It's gotten worse but it wasn't fantastic then. i.e. a quota might not be the whole answer. It's how we try to play.

V good point SP about managers being chuffed with a draw.

 
I'd agree with you on the quota not being the whole answer, but I don't think that it would hurt.

The thing about 20 years ago encountering the same problems is a tough 1.

If we took the team from Euro 96 managed by Venables and pitched them against this current team managed by Hodgson I'm not 100% sure who would win, but I know which team I'd rather watch.

Edit: And who'd play to win, not to draw!

 
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shedpensioner said:
I'd agree with you on the quota not being the whole answer, but I don't think that it would hurt.

The thing about 20 years ago encountering the same problems is a tough 1.

If we took the team from Euro 96 managed by Venables and pitched them against this current team managed by Hodgson I'm not 100% sure who would win, but I know which team I'd rather watch.

Edit: And who'd play to win, not to draw!
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Fair point re. Euro '96. That was a more traditional English team in terms of style - if only Gazza had been able to slide one more foot forward...Since 1993, we've sometimes been very good but have more often been listless. Last night was dejavu. It felt like dozens and dozens of England games in respect of our possession, ball skills, pace, our sitting back, backing off from their attacking players rather than challenging, etc. A lot of last night's team are top professionals. On paper, the skill and experience (in varying degrees) is there but the execution isn't. The players don't look comfortable with the set up, imo.

 
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Internationals are annoying to me more than anything.  I haven't cared about our national team in a long time, probably because I get the sense that nobody else (who matters) does.  Our clubs and managers treat them like an irritation and do everything they can to minimise their player's involvement to avoid injury or other inconveniences.  On top of this our entire philosophy and infrastructure is substandard and outdated.  The fact that smaller countries like Holland (and now possibly Belgium if this isn't a flash in the pan) can consistently put us to shame is telling.  Even the players have the wrong attitude.  Our biggest talent at the moment is Wilshire, and look at what an obnoxious, self-obsessed prick he is.

In the Prem itself the home grown rule is treated like another irritation, because there just aren't many good English players around.  This season Chelsea took the hit and suffered the penalty rather than name a mediocre (and probably overrated) English player to make up the numbers.  We're one of the strongest clubs in the country and we can't even find enough English players to meet our standards, and if we're honest - we got incredibly lucky with Lampard, Terry and Cole over the years.  Contrast to Spain, their top 2 clubs are basically the Spanish national team.  

This doesn't even scratch the issue for England and a lot of it has been said here already.  I only know that we're not going to see an improvement any time soon.

 
One thing you can guarantee, if England don't qualify, it'll be ALL Lampard's fault for missing that open goal at the end last night.

 
I find it strange how attention is concentrated solely to the lack of youth getting a chance in PL teams, while the lack of quality "English" managers/coaches working in the PL is completely overlooked.

I believe a number of clubs in the reserve/u21 league should be allowed to have a B team in the league structure. How this is determined is another matter and somewhat beyond me as numerous factors would need to be taken into consideration, but one condition would have to be that they have a specific number of English on the coaching staff and must field at least 7 English/British players.

 
I've got a real problem with Walcott. If we ditch him everything will be all right. We will win the World Cup. 

Can someone tell our Theo that the game doesn't have to be played at a million miles an hour every single moment of every match.

He's allowed to take his time, and dare I say it, show a bit of composure.

You have explosive pace, we've got that, you don't have to show us all the time. Use your pace advisedly, as any sensible player would do.

My god man. You really wind me up. It's like watching a f**king circus act.

Edit: Any manager that picks him is a cretin.

 
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There was only one player on the pitch who played well, Yevhen Konoplyanka, apart from that, atleast Zozulya and Yarmolenko tried attacking, Bezus looked a threat off the bench. Shevchuk was the main letdown for me for Ukraine, Selin is a much better option, if Ukraines lineup was ;

Pyatov

Husyev - Khacheridi - Rakitskiy - Manzyuk/Fedestkiy

Tyomschuk - Stepanenko

Yarmolenko - Seleznyov - Konoplyanka

Zozulya

I think Ukraine could definitely have won. However England were so negative which ruined what could have been a good game, and when you park the bus against a team who counter attacks, it will be a dull game. Atleast Ukraine are now pretty much set to qualify, with Poland in Kharkiv, before playing San Marino. Now I am just hoping this overrated sh*t national team gets beat by Montenegro and Poland. One really bad thing was the coverage, really wish I decided to stream it and watch on Inter, instead of watching ITV. :/ 

 
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