Ukraine 0 England 0 - football or insomnia?

[jezza]

 Someone needs the balls to draw a line under this NOW. Agree with Just, say goodbye to the Lamps, Gerrards & co who have all had their day International wise. Only a few of the current crop deserve to stay in the frame and let's build for 2018 onwards.

That match last night really did make our 0-0 with Utd look positively enthralling!

Agreed, though it should have happened sooner, after the last world cup debacle they should have dropped everyone over 25 and replaced through the U21s, how can you build for the future with over 30s!

The way England play hacks me off as well, how do you pull someone out of the blood and thunder Premiership and expect them to play like Italy when they pull on an England shirt?

And lastly how can footballers paid 100k + per week play with such an abject level of skill and craft, absolutely bloody disgraceful.

 

[Jonty]

Didn't we only beat Brazil a few months ago?

With the players we have this is about the best we can do. It sadly says a lot when the most important players in our national set up are nearly the exact same names as 10 years ago.

You can either choose the "dad's army" or the overrated youngsters, there aren't any young Lampard's, Terry's or Rooney's coming through.

I think Woy has done ok with what we have, he's drawn a lot of games but in big tournaments I think that against the big teams that's probably what our tactic has to be. We can't go out and try and outplay Brazil or Spain or Germany or we'll get slaughtered. We just need to be compact in defence, have a decent long ball player in the midfield, some pace on the wings and Rooney up front and we may just stand some sort of chance of getting to the QF's.

As other's have already said the issue is at grass roots and in domestic football, the quality just isn't coming through to compete at the highest level.

 

[Tim W]

I recommend anyone slightly interested in England and football development at grassroots level to read this letter to Mr Dyke from Maidstone United.

http://maidstoneunited.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/speaking-up-for-our-national-game.html?spref=tw&m=1

 

[bluedave]

I recommend anyone slightly interested in England and football development at grassroots level to read this letter to Mr Dyke from Maidstone United.

http://maidstoneunited.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/speaking-up-for-our-national-game.html?spref=tw&m=1

It's good to read some informed views on the subject with practical suggestions that could actually be implemented and would make a real difference. All this talk of limiting foreign players completely misses the point that the young English talent just isn't there.

 

[Barn]

Really good letter and so nice to see someone actually thinking clearly about what will make a sustained difference to football in England.

So as I see it we have the following ideas (I'm going to sort of list it from the top of the game down);

1. The FA to control football in England and not the Premier League.
2. PL quota on English players in each game - and this shouldn't be some obsurd ruling about having had to have been on holiday here three times before your parents reach 40, it should be players that can play for England (I'd even include the rest of the UK as non-English as those countries all have their own leagues - it would even help them improve).
3. Start again with the national team - promote a host of semi-talented youngsters and drop all the older players (I don't totally agree with this one but it's had a lot of support so it's on the list).
4. Only allow players to play for their correct age group (at international level) - U21's stay in the U21's set-up until they're not allowed to any more, this will ensure that our youth teams are more likely to compete, they'd stay together as a unit for longer and should work better as a team because they'd know each other better.  If we won at youth level when those players move up to senior level, they would know that they're good enough and be in the habit of winning.  It would also stop the "next young thing" from being overhyped and burnt out.
5. U21 squad getting together once a week for a training session - this would be difficult to do during busy periods of the season but if everyone is sensible it could really work.
6. 3G pitches allowed throughout the leagues - f*** what the PL say. For all the reasons mentioned in the Maidstone letter - better pitches breed better players!
7. Proper compensation for smaller clubs when they loose players (of any age) to bigger clubs.  In my opinion this should be in the form of a small initial payment and a sell on clause.
8. Change the accademy set-ups so that they can't just pick kids up and drop them as and when they feel like it, it destroys the kids, leaves parents disillusioned and screws up the small local clubs.
9. Better coaching at grass roots.  It's fine that professional teams have top coaches in their accademies but what about those kids that don't join accademies (not always because of ability), professional clubs should be training the small independant teams how to coach their kids properly.  Most 6-16 year olds are coached by a dad and not a proper football coach, these dads are generally willing to learn to do the best for the kids they're coaching, so why are the FA/clubs not giving them more support and help.
10. Make kids football fun at all levels so that more kids stay in the game, we've lost so many talented kids from the game over the last 20 years because the FA is so hell bent on finding the next star, stop looking and concentrate on the masses and the stars will shine.

There's a lot that can be done, but it will take a bloody brave FA to do it.  Have we got that?  Sadly I doubt it.

 

[ForeverCarefree]

PL quota on English players in each game - and this shouldn't be some obsurd ruling about having had to have been on holiday here three times before your parents reach 40, it should be players that can play for England (I'd even include the rest of the UK as non-English as those countries all have their own leagues - it would even help them improve).

The main problem(s) I see with this is are:

Premier League teams are already paying a premium for English players, a lot of the time their price tags aren't matching their ability which, in my opinion, is why a lot of clubs buy from abroad because the players are cheaper. If you force teams to play English players, not just "homegrown" you can bet the prices will be driven up even further because it becomes very much a sellers market. Will the fans end up paying the price in terms of increased ticket prices?

There a real lack of talent coming through, if you force teams to field English players will the quality of football drop as well? If the quality of football drops, will audience figures drop too? Suddenly clubs are not getting as much TV money and may not be able to sustain themselves financially (extreme scenario I know but possible). 

I can imagine the question a lot of clubs will ask would be "Why are we being made accountable for the national team?".

You impose a restriction on Premier League clubs that their European rivals do not have and the Elite might argue that their chances in European Cups are being hindered by a ruling that is in place only for the benefit of the National Team that they in now way profit/benefit from themselves. 

 

[shedpensioner]

When the FA changed the youth set up in football to the academy system that was supposed to be the turning point for the national team, well that has failed so it's time to look at why it has failed.

 

[Barn]

You're exactly right about the big clubs being held responsible and I would fully exepct them to throw out that ruling. That though just further highlights what the Maidstone letter says about the PL running the game in this country. There could very well be a point where the FA and PL cut their ties, be that with the PL standing alone from the FA (I don't care to think what the connotations and implications of that might be) or with the advent of a Euro super league. Both a long way down the line but both quite possible.

The other question is will the fans (those in this country and not the world wide market) turn their collective backs on the PL and what it stands for - including the hindering of the national team?

 

[ForeverCarefree]

You're exactly right about the big clubs being held responsible and I would fully exepct them to throw out that ruling. That though just further highlights what the Maidstone letter says about the PL running the game in this country. There could very well be a point where the FA and PL cut their ties, be that with the PL standing alone from the FA (I don't care to think what the connotations and implications of that might be) or with the advent of a Euro super league. Both a long way down the line but both quite possible.

The other question is will the fans (those in this country and not the world wide market) turn their collective backs on the PL and what it stands for - including the hindering of the national team?

For me, it's club before country with football. 

Chelsea succeeding means so much more to me than seeing England succeed. I would take that European Cup win in Munich over seeing England win the World Cup every time. I am patriotic and am proud to be English but Chelsea is love when it comes to football and I wouldn't sacrifice anything regarding Chelsea just on the off chance England might get a bit better as national team. 

My personal opinion is the problem is a grass roots one, it's an issue with our ideologies of football and also a lack of playing surfaces for children and issues such as leaving in state of fear where parents won't allow their kids to play football in the middle of a street or even just a local park for fear of what may happen. 

More kids, playing football more often and the pool of talent grows.

 

[Nibs]

I recommend anyone slightly interested in England and football development at grassroots level to read this letter to Mr Dyke from Maidstone United.

http://maidstoneunited.blogspot.co.uk/2013/09/speaking-up-for-our-national-game.html?spref=tw&m=1

That is a good read.

From my point of view we have gone full circle where foreign players are concerned and we have reached over-saturation. When we first got the likes of Gullit, Petrescu, Le Boeuf, Zola etc they were very exciting times and it was great to have a bit of foreign flair to add to our British contingent.

It’s great to have quality players like Mata, Hazard, Luiz etc but I do long for more home grown players to form part of our set-up. Lamps, JT and Ash haven’t got that long left and it pains me when I see the likes of Chalobah and McEachran not really given a proper chance. In a season or so’s time we are in real danger of putting out a side which will be all foreign so it’s no wonder the International side is suffering. I would welcome a change in the rules where all teams HAD to have at least two (maybe more?) home grown players in the side (and that doesn’t mean some French / African kid we have picked up at 12 years of age!)

I know some folk don’t give a toss about England and they couldn’t care less if Chelsea fielded a side full of Brazilians or whatever. Chelsea will always come first for me but I still want to see my country do well and I want for Chelsea to be part of that. Things HAVE to change.

 

[Barn]

Wouldn't argue with that at all, but I still think there will come a point where the FA need to get the PL to work with them and be more open to the fact that there's a whole world of football going on, it's not just about the very cream of the crop.

That was aimed at ForeverCarefree, Nibs just jumped in between us!

 

[just]

Premier League teams are already paying a premium for English players, a lot of the time their price tags aren't matching their ability which, in my opinion, is why a lot of clubs buy from abroad because the players are cheaper. If you force teams to play English players, not just "homegrown" you can bet the prices will be driven up even further because it becomes very much a sellers market. Will the fans end up paying the price in terms of increased ticket prices?

An oft quoted argument against a quota system and probably true. However, no such thing as free lunch and IMO it would be a price worth paying. A possible positive flip side to that is that the club acadamies would be searching even harder for the cream of young english talent, and fast-tracking it through, rather than simply looking abroad.

 

[ForeverCarefree]

An oft quoted argument against a quota system and probably true. However, no such thing as free lunch and IMO it would be a price worth paying. A possible positive flip side to that is that the club acadamies would be searching even harder for the cream of young english talent, and fast-tracking it through, rather than simply looking abroad.

But then what happens is the likes of Chelsea, United, City, Arsenal etc are going to buy up the best English players once their establishing themselves with lower table clubs meaning that there is more pressure on the academies of clubs such Everton, Fulham, Aston Villa to fast track youth players purely on the basis that they are English just to be able to meet a quota not necessarily because the player is ready or has enough quality.

At the end of the day professional football is there for entertainment purposes and if you're taking away the quality from teams just to ensure you comply to a box checking exercise then ultimately it's the fans who suffer. 

 

[just]

But then what happens is the likes of Chelsea, United, City, Arsenal etc are going to buy up the best English players once their establishing themselves with lower table clubs meaning that there is more pressure on the academies of clubs such Everton, Fulham, Aston Villa to fast track youth players purely on the basis that they are English just to be able to meet a quota not necessarily because the player is ready or has enough quality.

Isn't that what happends now to promising young talent? Rodwell, Ramsey (not english I know, but the point stands)? I'm sure Luke Shaw will be next if he continues to shine like he has at Southampton.

Of course what we cannot say with certainty is whether forcing clubs to pick english players via a quota system will improve them. I'm sure some players it will and some it will not. But at least more young home nation players would have the chance to show what they could do. And of course with a quota rule enforced clubs that brought these over-priced english players would have the incentive to actually play them. You wouldn't have a club like Citeh buying the likes of Sinclair and Rodwell, (and indeed ourselves with Daniel Sturridge!), and then leaving them on the bench watching their careers go backwards.

 

[Barn]

The first problem is still that we need to ensure more you english kids are playing the game to a good standard. That's got to be the key.

 

[ForeverCarefree]

Isn't that what happends now to promising young talent? Rodwell, Ramsey (not english I know, but the point stands)? I'm sure Luke Shaw will be next if he continues to shine like he has at Southampton.

Of course what we cannot say with certainty is whether forcing clubs to pick english players via a quota system will improve them. I'm sure some players it will and some it will not. But at least more young home nation players would have the chance to show what they could do. And of course with a quota rule enforced clubs that brought these over-priced english players would have the incentive to actually play them. You wouldn't have a club like Citeh buying the likes of Sinclair and Rodwell, (and indeed ourselves with Daniel Sturridge!), and then leaving them on the bench watching their careers go backwards.

But if they are good enough surely they will break through regardless? Wilshire had some great midfielders at Arsenal ahead of him but he broke into the first team because he was good enough. 

Same for Cleverly, he learnt his trade on loan and has returned to United to be part of their first team squad. 

For us, Chalobah is showing promise and is being spoken of highly, if he continues to develop he'll get the chance in our squad, probably when Lampard leaves.

But forcing teams to play people just because they are English isn't going tot transform us into a better footballing nation. As I have said before I personally believe it's as a much a cultural problem as anything else.

 

[Nibs]

But if they are good enough surely they will break through regardless? Wilshire had some great midfielders at Arsenal ahead of him but he broke into the first team because he was good enough. 

Same for Cleverly, he learnt his trade on loan and has returned to United to be part of their first team squad. 

For us, Chalobah is showing promise and is being spoken of highly, if he continues to develop he'll get the chance in our squad, probably when Lampard leaves.

But forcing teams to play people just because they are English isn't going tot transform us into a better footballing nation. As I have said before I personally believe it's as a much a cultural problem as anything else.

That is fair play to Arsenal and Wenger. I hate to say this, but I honestly don't think Wilshere would have come through like he has done had he been with us. I don't agree with this "if they're good enough they will make it". At clubs like Chelsea, you will get over-looked and the risk won't be taken, because of that striving for instant success and the fact we can spend £50M+ on any player we fancy.

Hopefully that will change and Chalobah and one or two others will make it at Chelsea but you have to have your doubts.

 

[ForeverCarefree]

That is fair play to Arsenal and Wenger. I hate to say this, but I honestly don't think Wilshere would have come through like he has done had he been with us. I don't agree with this "if they're good enough they will make it". At clubs like Chelsea, you will get over-looked and the risk won't be taken, because of that striving for instant success and the fact we can spend £50M+ on any player we fancy.

Hopefully that will change and Chalobah and one or two others will make it at Chelsea but you have to have your doubts.

But if that player isn't given the opportunity here at Chelsea he will leave in search of first team football and again if he is good enough he will break through and eventually play for England. 

I just don't see why team like ourselves are being made scapegoats for the simple fact that English players just aren't good enough right now and let's be honest haven't looked like winning anything since the '66 World Cup. Closest we got was Euro 96 and we had "home advantage" then as well. 

We produce some truly world class players as a nation but we do not produce enough of them to win International cup competitions. The generation we just had, the likes of Beckham, Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Owen was a very good crop of players but right now, the current crop isn't as good. 

 

[Castiel]

But if that player isn't given the opportunity here at Chelsea he will leave in search of first team football and again if he is good enough he will break through and eventually play for England. 

I just don't see why team like ourselves are being made scapegoats for the simple fact that English players just aren't good enough right now and let's be honest haven't looked like winning anything since the '66 World Cup. Closest we got was Euro 96 and we had "home advantage" then as well. 

We produce some truly world class players as a nation but we do not produce enough of them to win International cup competitions. The generation we just had, the likes of Beckham, Gerrard, Terry, Ferdinand, Lampard, Owen was a very good crop of players but right now, the current crop isn't as good. 

Barca, Madrid and Bayern all demand instant success as examples.  They're packed with Spanish and German players respectively, because they have a wealth of great Spanish or German players to choose from.  I don't believe in quotas or market manipulation.  That only patches the problem and demands that our clubs lower their standards to accommodate substandard British players (if they were good enough they'd be getting into these teams on merit like their Spanish and German counterparts).  The issue is much deeper than what the clubs are doing.  The clubs are only interested in the best players they can secure for the best prices.  It isn't their fault that too few of them are British (and the few that are, are overpriced).

 

[Tim W]

Hopefully that will change and Chalobah and one or two others will make it at Chelsea but you have to have your doubts.

We spend time and money developing Chalobah, Josh, Clifford, etc and then go out and spend 8 million on Van Ginkel without giving our youngsters a single game. Says it all really.

I found it incredible that clubs take youngsters from the likes of Maidstone without parting with a penny. 

(This thread reminds me of the old registry forum kudos to you fellow posters.)