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who have i banned and when was this Lofty?
I have seen your collective answers on here and thought, as most of you seem to be picking liverpool players i thought it would be interesting to see if liverpool fans do similarly, and many have said Frank Lampard by the way, but the majority are making more sensible (my opinion only) nominations.
As for 'the stats' proving Lampard is a better all round player than Gerrard, i'm not going to accept that. Lampard scores lots of goals, but having said that he is probably the greediest central midfield player i have ever seen. He is weak in the tackle (when he isnt sh*tting out of them anyway) is terrible positionally when it comes to defensive duties, and personally he appears a bit like carrick to me with his passing. If he has time and space, and the man he is passing to has time and space, then he can ping a ball, put him under pressure and his passing is ordinary.
midlandblue
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I dont care what you asked for.
Gem
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Rob mate, you are a b.r.o.k.e.n. r.e.c.o.r.d. I'm starting to think you're more obsessed with Lampard than we are...!! You say we're obsessed with Gerrard but by 'eck, I'd struggle to find 10 posts of yours that doesn't mention our Frank in it. Black. Kettle. Pot.
PS - I think Gerrard is the most overrated player
after Barton that is, now he IS as average as you can be.
PS - I think Gerrard is the most overrated player
I didn't say you'd banned anybody. Check this thread and you'll see that not only was I banned from the Liverpool Way without being allowed to make a single post, but that similarly clubhappy was never allowed to post at This Is Anfield. So that's two different Chelsea fans on two different LFC forums. And there's you here and numerous Scousers at CFCnet, for instance. Is that clear enough for you?
And if you're not going to accept the stats, what's the point? You know something, I actually heard some pillock calling Talkscouse yesterday, claiming that Lampard only looks good because of the players around him at Chelsea, because of the way Mourinho plays him. Put it another way, at Chelsea Frank Lampard does what's asked him, fulfills his role and as for inflexibility - he's done it in several different formations in the last 2 - 3 years. Also how idiotic is it to discount the number of goals he scores. Take away his ... 65 goals in the last three seasons and what have you got .. is another common bullsh1t argument. And why is it bullsh1t? Goals win games; countless strikers would die for those kind of stats. Dig deeper and you'll see that Frank's stats are also better when it comes to assists, passes completed, etc etc etc. But you're not having the stats are you, let alone someone else's opionion. And why should you? After all they're only facts.
Rob, your answers amuse me, largely because you are mistakling your opinion for fact. Just because you say Stevie is the best passer/shooter/tackler in the country, doesn't mean that it is true. Tellingly, you have provided NO stats at all to support your arguement, so forgive me for finding it a bit laughable. Stats may not paint the complete picture, but they sure as hell provide a more concrete and ojective assessment of a player than you get looking through your red specs, and bases on stats Stevie had a VERY average season indeed.
What we do know is that he loses on shooting and assists to Frank, by a long way, which makes a bit of a mockery of your claim his attacking skills are as good as anyone. Obviously, they are not.
Furthermore, regarding his defensive work, clearly Fat Rafa doesn't agree with you, as he always plays Stevie with a more defensive midfielder, if not TWO, so he obviously does not have the same faith you do that he is the master of all trades and solution to all problems.
You're arguement has no factual basis, and while you are free to claim Stevie is the bees-knees whereever he plays on the pitch, you don't honestly expect anyone on here to take you seriously, do you?
What we do know is that he loses on shooting and assists to Frank, by a long way, which makes a bit of a mockery of your claim his attacking skills are as good as anyone. Obviously, they are not.
Furthermore, regarding his defensive work, clearly Fat Rafa doesn't agree with you, as he always plays Stevie with a more defensive midfielder, if not TWO, so he obviously does not have the same faith you do that he is the master of all trades and solution to all problems.
You're arguement has no factual basis, and while you are free to claim Stevie is the bees-knees whereever he plays on the pitch, you don't honestly expect anyone on here to take you seriously, do you?
reply to lofty - No1.
I am aware of the thread and you not getting onto those sites, but it has nothing to do with me and no relevance whatsoever to this debate. That was what i was trying to get at.
reply to lofty - No2.
I didnt say i wouldnt accept stats, i said i wouldnt accept that the number of goals he has scored make him a better player than Gerrard. I dont want to 'take his goals away from him' as it is clearly a massive part of his game but i think it overshadows his weaknesses. that is all. I think he is sh*t at defending and whenever i see him play i am not impressed particularly with his passing abilities, aside from (as i said) when he has time and space to pick the passes. I dont think he can dominate a game in the way that gerrard or Essien can (or vieira could) for instance and i think these are reasonable flaws to his 'all round game'. I have also never claimed that he isnt a good player, but i am not going to change my opinion that i beleive Gerrard to be better just because you disagree. Opinions aqre formed on all sorts of things. You lot will see a lot more of Frank than i do (mostly because he generally hides when we play against you) and I will see plenty more of Gerrard than you will (the same bracketed sentence could apply i suppose) so i will always have a different opinion to you. Stats are stats and personally i cant be doing with them as they are always subjective rely on the ability of the other players around them to contribute.
Reply to Tim:
I dont think i have put forward anything other than my opinion, but that opinion is not plucked from fresh air. I know how good he is at all of the things i have highlighted and you havent argued against them so far. I have not seen anyone better (in his position) at any of those things. I have seen many as good at some of them, but not all of them, that is what i have SEEN. I dont want or need to back it up with stats as it is opinion based on my own judgement with my own eyes and i beleive that my judgement is fair. As for stats suggesting he has had an average season, I thought i had allowed for this when i said that we have not scored the amount of goals that would allow for him to have better assist stats and that he doesnt take every set piece and that we are not great at converting set pieces. Not necessariliy the fault of Gerrard.
I do know that Gerrard is as good a passer as anyone, although in a team that is not collectively as good as you (we finished behind you so that is fair if annoying) he has to try and do more himself and so pass completion will be lower, plus he doesnt take the easy option as often as Lampard seems to with his passing. You might argue that keeping possession is a good quality which it is, but i would always want gerrard to try that little bit extra than take the safe option because i know what he can create by doing it. If the rest of the team were all as capable of creating these things then i would be more willing to accept the easy option from him.
your point about Rafa playing him with a defensive midfielder because he doesnt rate his defensive ability is nonsensical to me, dare I say laughable. He tries to get the most from Gerrard and the most from the team. It seems a modern need to play with a man sat in front of the defence doing nothing but defending but until the arrival of Mascherano and since the departure of Hamann, we did not have this. Alonso sits deeper than Gerrard in nature but he is not a defensive midfielder, nor is Sissoko. Sissoko is everywhere and although his defensive destructive attributes allow the other midfielders to concentrate more on their attacking duties it does not negate those duties entirely. If you watch Liverpool play, at any time when gerrard is not used in a supporting role for the striker, he does plenty of defensive work and i have no doubts that it is demanded and expected of him to do so.
so to sum it up, I couldnt care less if you beleive Steven Gerrard to be the 'bees-knees', i just wanted to point out that your beleif that he is the most overrated player in the world is ridiculous.
and breath...
I am aware of the thread and you not getting onto those sites, but it has nothing to do with me and no relevance whatsoever to this debate. That was what i was trying to get at.
reply to lofty - No2.
I didnt say i wouldnt accept stats, i said i wouldnt accept that the number of goals he has scored make him a better player than Gerrard. I dont want to 'take his goals away from him' as it is clearly a massive part of his game but i think it overshadows his weaknesses. that is all. I think he is sh*t at defending and whenever i see him play i am not impressed particularly with his passing abilities, aside from (as i said) when he has time and space to pick the passes. I dont think he can dominate a game in the way that gerrard or Essien can (or vieira could) for instance and i think these are reasonable flaws to his 'all round game'. I have also never claimed that he isnt a good player, but i am not going to change my opinion that i beleive Gerrard to be better just because you disagree. Opinions aqre formed on all sorts of things. You lot will see a lot more of Frank than i do (mostly because he generally hides when we play against you) and I will see plenty more of Gerrard than you will (the same bracketed sentence could apply i suppose) so i will always have a different opinion to you. Stats are stats and personally i cant be doing with them as they are always subjective rely on the ability of the other players around them to contribute.
Reply to Tim:
I dont think i have put forward anything other than my opinion, but that opinion is not plucked from fresh air. I know how good he is at all of the things i have highlighted and you havent argued against them so far. I have not seen anyone better (in his position) at any of those things. I have seen many as good at some of them, but not all of them, that is what i have SEEN. I dont want or need to back it up with stats as it is opinion based on my own judgement with my own eyes and i beleive that my judgement is fair. As for stats suggesting he has had an average season, I thought i had allowed for this when i said that we have not scored the amount of goals that would allow for him to have better assist stats and that he doesnt take every set piece and that we are not great at converting set pieces. Not necessariliy the fault of Gerrard.
I do know that Gerrard is as good a passer as anyone, although in a team that is not collectively as good as you (we finished behind you so that is fair if annoying) he has to try and do more himself and so pass completion will be lower, plus he doesnt take the easy option as often as Lampard seems to with his passing. You might argue that keeping possession is a good quality which it is, but i would always want gerrard to try that little bit extra than take the safe option because i know what he can create by doing it. If the rest of the team were all as capable of creating these things then i would be more willing to accept the easy option from him.
your point about Rafa playing him with a defensive midfielder because he doesnt rate his defensive ability is nonsensical to me, dare I say laughable. He tries to get the most from Gerrard and the most from the team. It seems a modern need to play with a man sat in front of the defence doing nothing but defending but until the arrival of Mascherano and since the departure of Hamann, we did not have this. Alonso sits deeper than Gerrard in nature but he is not a defensive midfielder, nor is Sissoko. Sissoko is everywhere and although his defensive destructive attributes allow the other midfielders to concentrate more on their attacking duties it does not negate those duties entirely. If you watch Liverpool play, at any time when gerrard is not used in a supporting role for the striker, he does plenty of defensive work and i have no doubts that it is demanded and expected of him to do so.
so to sum it up, I couldnt care less if you beleive Steven Gerrard to be the 'bees-knees', i just wanted to point out that your beleif that he is the most overrated player in the world is ridiculous.
and breath...
Yes of course it's a side issue, but you asked
so I answered. Ok? Where the "who have i banned" came from I have no idea.
You didn't say you wouldn't accept the stats? Oh yes you did sunshine:
As you are aware, the original topic will very often develop into something else, and this one has now, largely to your involvement, become a Lampard v Gerrard debate. Where we do agree is that you're not going to change your opionion, and neither am I. As you yourself say, your opinion on Frank Lampard is based more on impression than stats/facts/observation. So to get back towards the original subject of this thread, why is Gerrard overrated? Because it's so seldom that anyone in the media critisises any part of his game. Ok? Or are you seriously going to tell me that your precious St Steven is The Perfect Player who never puts a foot wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if you did. Because time and again, I've seen him put in an average performance for England and whichever channel you watch, the commentators will have you believe that he can do no wrong. And that, is as near as dammit, the very definition of over-rated. Similarly, you can apply the exact same argument in reverse to Frank Lampard. More so when playing for Chelsea than for England, admittedly, but then his performances for Chelsea are what concern me most, just as St Steven's performances for England concern me far more than what he does for your lot.
Incidentally, I've checked out your similarly titled topic at the Liverpool Way
Isn't it interesting that your fellow fans can't decide whether Frank Lampard is the most overrated or most underrated player? Take this quote, for instance:
And that, is from a Liverpool fan. And here's another one:
For once I'll let a Scouser (or even two) speak for me.
i'll let this be my last comment on this topic. Hopefully.
thats where the "who have i banned" came from mate. Re-read your post as quoted, it has f**k all to do with me. I set up the debate on the liverpool way because i was interested to see the opinion. I knew there would be people who would throw up lampard and i also knew there would be people to defend him. I stayed out of it so as not to influence and keep it strictly scientific test case. I dont see what letting those scousers speak for you does though, as i havent at any point criticised Lampards attacking qualities, I have merely said that i think Gerrard a better all round player. I do rate Lampard. I dont like him and i think he has flaws but he deserves credit for the bits of his game that are top class, mainly his goals.
right then, so next up:
that is me not accepting what you say the stats prove, not me not accepting the stats. (does that make sense?) That is the problem with statistics. You can choose what meaning to take from them. All it means is that Lampard has scored more goals than Gerrard. It has no reflection on ability or technique or any other aspects of their game than scoring goals. Get it this time sunshine?
so i think i can end this now with a finally.
Finally, your definition of overrated is that the player doesnt get criticised by the media, i cannot attribute the same meaning to the word overrated. For me it is important to remember that the written press are idiots in the main and many of the pundits are similar. My idea of overrated is wholly different. It is a player that the is considered by the majority to be much better than in reality they actually are. much more simple. Good examples would, be in my opinion, Ibrahimovic, Raul, Del Piero (both a couple of years ago), Carrick, Berbatov recently, these are players who are overrated.
agree to disagree is the only way forward i suppose.
midlandblue
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Rob Red, you know what is sooooooo anoying about you?
it's the fact that you think you can dictate to people.
when a discussion should be altered, what the topic should be, only your opinion is valid and when a discussion ends.
if you were funny or witty I think I could just about tolerate you, but your niether and I cant.
it's the fact that you think you can dictate to people.
when a discussion should be altered, what the topic should be, only your opinion is valid and when a discussion ends.
if you were funny or witty I think I could just about tolerate you, but your niether and I cant.
neither wit nor humour are my strong points, i am aware of that. at least i could never be considered overrated.
I dont mean to dictate, i just wont change my opinions easily, thats all.
also, i dont try and end a discussion, i merely try to end my participation in it, as it often become quite circular. Sorry Midland_blue.
That's up to you. If you don't know when you're beaten, carry on.
Yes but you asked who YOU'D banned; I merely mentioned that Chelsea supporters had been banned from Liverpool sites without having made a single post. Which is indisputable. The point here being that a fully objective discussion is hardly possible when Liverpool supporters are allowed to comment on Chelsea sites but not so Chelsea supporters on Liverpool sites. See? Perfectly relevant.
Oh come on. You've previously argued that Gerrard isn't overrated, that he's the most complete midfield player in the world - and incidentally, this statement in itself is enough to demolish your own argument. What letting Scousers speak for me does would be blatantly obvious if you were to remove those red-tinted glasses for a few seconds. I mean, it's one thing when a Chelsea fan claims Gerrard to be overrated, but something else entirely when that same opinion is shared by Liverpool fans. And again, Gerrard was merely one of the players put forward in this thread as the most overrated. I'm sticking to my opinion, based on what I read, what I hear and what I see.
Nope. Sorry. "that is me not accepting what you say the stats prove, not me not accepting the stats." makes no sense at all, and further more is splitting hairs to a ridiculous extreme. "All it means is that Lampard has scored more goals than Gerrard", yes and created more goals, yes and made a full contribution to a team that has finished consistently higher than your lot for the past 3 years or so. That's all.
so i think i can end this now with a finally.
Fine. Your idea of overrated is based on whoever you consider to be overrated. By whom? The majority, you say. What majority where, and on what basis do this majority base their opinion? Have this majority seen every game, or even most of the games played by the players you mention? No of course they haven't. So exactly how do they form your opinions? ... they base them on what they see, what they hear, and what they read. What they hear from the media, what they read in the media and what they see on the media. Because the sad truth is that most people are stupid enough to believe what they see and hear in the media, and will often take the "evidence" of some big-mouthed, so-called expert over the evidence of their own eyes. And that is how Steven effing Gerrard comes to be so massively overrated.
That's entirely up to you. If you don't know when you're beaten, then carry on.
midlandblue
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Can of worms opened here the ol Gerrard v Lampard could be argued right up until the season kicks off again
Lampard's form dipped last season but he still managed to pinch +20 goals. Gerrard in all honestly didn't excell, apart from the odd game. RedRob, do you think he merited a nomination for Player of the year? I personally don't.
Gerrard is not the most overrated player in the premiership, lets be fair, although I understand both side of the arguement.
Overrated, Darren Bent for 16.5M for a start then there are the likes of Bramble who shouldn't even be in this division!!
Savage, Barton, the list goes on, but I suppose the term 'overrated' is relative to each player.
I'll stick with Titus as worst or over-rated I've seen for years, along with the Ferdinand brothers!
Lampard's form dipped last season but he still managed to pinch +20 goals. Gerrard in all honestly didn't excell, apart from the odd game. RedRob, do you think he merited a nomination for Player of the year? I personally don't.
Gerrard is not the most overrated player in the premiership, lets be fair, although I understand both side of the arguement.
Overrated, Darren Bent for 16.5M for a start then there are the likes of Bramble who shouldn't even be in this division!!
Savage, Barton, the list goes on, but I suppose the term 'overrated' is relative to each player.
I'll stick with Titus as worst or over-rated I've seen for years, along with the Ferdinand brothers!
it was, as i say, me trying to end my participation and the debate with lofty specifically. The thing that you should realise is that I am an outsider here and that most of my debates quickly become arguments. Take for example Lofty saying "dont know when you're beat". Beat at what? it is a discussion with opinions, not a contest, but it becomes a contest, particularly with lofty, because of his feelings towards my club, and because of my stubbornness.
I wish we could all just get along, and i wish even more that i was wittier, but its not the way it is, so apologies again if it grates on you.
anyway, to lighten the mood here is a joke...
One night, a man rolls over in bed and gives his wife a big, knowing grin. Immediately realising his intentions she says,
"Not tonight darling. I have an appointment with the gynaecologist tomorrow morning and I want to stay fresh and clean."
Dejected and disappointed, the man rolls over and tries to get to sleep. A few minutes later he rolls over and prods his wife again.
"Tell me, do you have a dentist appointment tomorrow, too?"
I think Bent, and the Ferdinands are perfect examples of what i consider overrated. Nowhere near the talent their reputations would betray. As for Gerrard in player of the year, i can see your point. He wasnt our best player last season but the nominations are made mostly by idiots, be they the sicophantic (sp?) media or the mostly ill educated players themselves.Can of worms opened here the ol Gerrard v Lampard could be argued right up until the season kicks off againLampard's form dipped last season but he still managed to pinch +20 goals. Gerrard in all honestly didn't excell, apart from the odd game. RedRob, do you think he merited a nomination for Player of the year? I personally don't.
Gerrard is not the most overrated player in the premiership, lets be fair, although I understand both side of the arguement.
Overrated, Darren Bent for 16.5M for a start then there are the likes of Bramble who shouldn't even be in this division!!
Savage, Barton, the list goes on, but I suppose the term 'overrated' is relative to each player.
I'll stick with Titus as worst or over-rated I've seen for years, along with the Ferdinand brothers!
For me player of the year was between two players, Drogba and Ronaldo, and the right one won.
This is almost true. However, I'd see it as a typical Liverpool supporter's insistence on having the last word. Call it stubborness if you like. The thing is Rob. This thread was initially a discussion of who could be considered the most overrated player. It was you and you alone who turned it into another Lampard v Gerrard debate.
No need to apologise - seriously. I understand where you're coming from, but I'm damned if I'm 'aving it. Because you're so blatantly wrong
I was going to finish with a joke as well. Mine was a bit simpler though, and more on topic - Steven Gerrard being nominated for Player of the Year last season.
I'm not even starting on this one ...
yet
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