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A Topic About Refs, VAR and PGMOL.

WhiteWall said:
I agree Jim but thresholds and boundaries assessing the extent of severity of incidents is a natural result when every single player is effectively a cheat looking to gain any advantage they can. So if we have a situation where a defender holds a player from outside the box and the attackers gets inside the box before pitching himself to the floor, the ref then has a number of decisions to make.

We've all seen many incidents where attackers get penalties for being wrestled to the ground, yet the attacker has got as much of a hold on the defenders shirt as the other way about.

I think we all know that was a penalty but with the way all players manipulate and embellish situations I can see why some of these things are hard for refs. 
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So the panel decided it should have been a penalty by 3-2

Just shows how the same incident is viewed differently by decision makers.

I wonder what the threshold is, seeing as they voted 4-1 that it hadn't been crossed?

No doubt the criteria is out there somewhere, but if a panel watching the incident multiple times from different camera angles can't agree, it just shows it's almost impossible for a ref , at pitch level, maybe with an obstructed view,  to get a decision correct within seconds.

Not even to factor in players acting, cheating, putting pressure on the ref, and the sideline antics of the coaches..

It went our way, no doubt it'll get evened up soon enough!

 
The Rising Sun said:
So the panel decided it should have been a penalty by 3-2

Just shows how the same incident is viewed differently by decision makers.

I wonder what the threshold is, seeing as they voted 4-1 that it hadn't been crossed?

No doubt the criteria is out there somewhere, but if a panel watching the incident multiple times from different camera angles can't agree, it just shows it's almost impossible for a ref , at pitch level, maybe with an obstructed view,  to get a decision correct within seconds.

Not even to factor in players acting, cheating, putting pressure on the ref, and the sideline antics of the coaches..

It went our way, no doubt it'll get evened up soon enough!
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It just shows that whoever the panel consists of is either a) unaware of the rules b) corrupt or c) covering for others to protect reputation.

Nobody who genuinely understands the rules of the game can say that it wasnt a foul. In the same way that nobody could say that the hair pull on cucurella by Romero was not a foul. It is very simple. The rules do not allow a defending player to grab and pull an attacking player. They also dont allow a handful of hair.  So for anyone to have viewed the incident and say no foul - has no credibility.

I suspect that there is a drive to protect the reputation of the LMA and refs.

These are not subjective decisions. The rules do not allow for pulling, and therefore, it is a foul. Binary.

 
My first thought during the game was that he waited till he was in the box to drop to the floor. I agree its still a foul imo but maybe that's the point behind "threshold" from the panel.

 
The Rising Sun said:
So the panel decided it should have been a penalty by 3-2

Just shows how the same incident is viewed differently by decision makers.

I wonder what the threshold is, seeing as they voted 4-1 that it hadn't been crossed?

No doubt the criteria is out there somewhere, but if a panel watching the incident multiple times from different camera angles can't agree, it just shows it's almost impossible for a ref , at pitch level, maybe with an obstructed view,  to get a decision correct within seconds.

Not even to factor in players acting, cheating, putting pressure on the ref, and the sideline antics of the coaches..

It went our way, no doubt it'll get evened up soon enough!
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I don't think you can have a clear rule unless you want to put a rule saying you can only pull player for x seconds using whatever force. 😂😂😂

 
Bob stark said:
I don't think you can have a clear rule unless you want to put a rule saying you can only pull player for x seconds using whatever force. 😂😂😂
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There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 

 
nonotnowjim said:
There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 
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Not really, football is a contact sport. Everyone push, pull (attacker and defender). 

 
nonotnowjim said:
There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 
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This is a simple example. Both player are pushing and pulling, normal stuff

 
nonotnowjim said:
There is a clear rule already.  There is no grey area or subjectivity. Pulling a player isn’t allowed. 

The ref either applied the rules incorrectly , or didn’t see it. One of those things are true. In either case VAR should have intervened for a clear error. 
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There was as much pulling by the attacker as our player, both let go and play carried on. Its pretty much 50/50 so just carry on.

 
nonotnowjim said:
It just shows that whoever the panel consists of is either a) unaware of the rules b) corrupt or c) covering for others to protect reputation.

Nobody who genuinely understands the rules of the game can say that it wasnt a foul. In the same way that nobody could say that the hair pull on cucurella by Romero was not a foul. It is very simple. The rules do not allow a defending player to grab and pull an attacking player. They also dont allow a handful of hair.  So for anyone to have viewed the incident and say no foul - has no credibility.

I suspect that there is a drive to protect the reputation of the LMA and refs.

These are not subjective decisions. The rules do not allow for pulling, and therefore, it is a foul. Binary.
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If it's so obvious, why would the KMI Panel vote 3-2 in favour of a penalty being awarded, not 5-0? And why would it vote 4-1 in favour of not intervening?

I don't buy the 'unaware of the rules, corrupt or covering for others' as excuses. Far more likely is they have a better understanding of the rules than us. 

Bear in mind the KMI Panel comprises of former players and coaches, alongside PGMOL officials. It isn't just former refs trying to back their mates up. 

I feel the whole reason why we question it is because MOTD, Sky and BT keep highlighting contentious decisions and trying to paint things as black and white, when more often than not, they are grey. 

I think it was a foul on Summerville. I also think he went down too easily, and can see after multiple replays that it isn't black and white. That's what VAR is looking at now. Has the ref missed something obvious? No? Then no intervention needed. If the ref had given it on the pitch, I'm sure the pen would stand. 

I quite like the way they're doing it. The decision is more often than not being left to the one on the pitch, the one who is closest to it and has the best feel for the game. Remember when VAR was first released, everyone was yammering on about how decisions were being affected by some people hundreds of miles away looking at slow motion replays. 

 
Bob stark said:
Not really, football is a contact sport. Everyone push, pull (attacker and defender). 
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Unfortunately, your opinion doesnt trump the facts. Yes, football is a contact sport - but pulling another player is not permitted within that. It is all set out in law 12: https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct 

Key aspects of Law 12 include: Direct Free Kicks: Awarded for fouls such as kicking, tripping, charging, striking, pushing, and, importantly, holding or pulling an opponent (this includes shirt-pulling). If committed in the penalty area by a defending player, a penalty kick is awarded.

Any form of pulling (such as pulling an opponent’s shirt or body) is a foul, as per the rules of the game. 

 
nonotnowjim said:
Unfortunately, your opinion doesnt trump the facts. Yes, football is a contact sport - but pulling another player is not permitted within that. It is all set out in law 12: https://www.thefa.com/football-rules-governance/lawsandrules/laws/football-11-11/law-12---fouls-and-misconduct 

Key aspects of Law 12 include: Direct Free Kicks: Awarded for fouls such as kicking, tripping, charging, striking, pushing, and, importantly, holding or pulling an opponent (this includes shirt-pulling). If committed in the penalty area by a defending player, a penalty kick is awarded.

Any form of pulling (such as pulling an opponent’s shirt or body) is a foul, as per the rules of the game. 
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So it was a foul each then.

 
Shweaves said:
If it's so obvious, why would the KMI Panel vote 3-2 in favour of a penalty being awarded, not 5-0? And why would it vote 4-1 in favour of not intervening?

I don't buy the 'unaware of the rules, corrupt or covering for others' as excuses. Far more likely is they have a better understanding of the rules than us. 

Bear in mind the KMI Panel comprises of former players and coaches, alongside PGMOL officials. It isn't just former refs trying to back their mates up. 

I feel the whole reason why we question it is because MOTD, Sky and BT keep highlighting contentious decisions and trying to paint things as black and white, when more often than not, they are grey. 

I think it was a foul on Summerville. I also think he went down too easily, and can see after multiple replays that it isn't black and white. That's what VAR is looking at now. Has the ref missed something obvious? No? Then no intervention needed. If the ref had given it on the pitch, I'm sure the pen would stand. 

I quite like the way they're doing it. The decision is more often than not being left to the one on the pitch, the one who is closest to it and has the best feel for the game. Remember when VAR was first released, everyone was yammering on about how decisions were being affected by some people hundreds of miles away looking at slow motion replays. 
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I have no idea why these "former players and coaches" disagree. As I said, they are either unaware of the rules, blatently seek to go against them, or are covering the arses of others.

Luckily for us, the rules are published. They are not a secret. They are not ambiguous. They are black and white, and not grey.  See my post above which links to them.

The fact that summerville went down easily is irrelevent.  The "feel" of the game is irrelevent.  A foul is a foul, regardless of if the attacking players goes down or not. The game might be the nicest game ever, with zero fouls, but if a player then goes and headbutts another.- its a red card. 

A clear and obvious error was made. The ref either a) failed to implement the rules (a clear error) or b) didnt see the offence (a clear error). Therefore VAR must pick this up. 

 
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nonotnowjim said:
It just shows that whoever the panel consists of is either a) unaware of the rules b) corrupt or c) covering for others to protect reputation.

Nobody who genuinely understands the rules of the game can say that it wasnt a foul. In the same way that nobody could say that the hair pull on cucurella by Romero was not a foul. It is very simple. The rules do not allow a defending player to grab and pull an attacking player. They also dont allow a handful of hair.  So for anyone to have viewed the incident and say no foul - has no credibility.

I suspect that there is a drive to protect the reputation of the LMA and refs.

These are not subjective decisions. The rules do not allow for pulling, and therefore, it is a foul. Binary.
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We know that VAR actually saw the hair pull and knew it was a foul.

And the VAR ref admitted he let it go because the ref was a mate , and he didn't want to make the game any more difficult for him.

Corruption basically.

 
nonotnowjim said:
Clearly - the refs are useless, incompetent and not doing their job (implementing the rules). VAR is here to help do that - but it isnt. 
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You gotta remember we have a far better view of incidents than any referee on the pitch. I believe most of them ref the game honestly having to make decisions instantly with only one actual in game view of an incident.

But when I'm at a game, every ref's decision that goes against us is wrong!

 
The Rising Sun said:
You gotta remember we have a far better view of incidents than any referee on the pitch. I believe most of them ref the game honestly having to make decisions instantly with only one actual in game view of an incident.

But when I'm at a game, every ref's decision that goes against us is wrong!
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Yep - which is why VAR is there to help. Or should be. Instead it seems mostly there to protect the refs dodgy decisions. Then these panels are then set up to protect the ref, and VARs dodgy decisions.

This one went for us. They usually dont though.

 
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