Loaning Benayoun to Arsenal...

[dkw]

You honestly think our best midfielder since January is average and only useful to bring on for 15 minutes to close a game out? Wow.

 

[Katon]

Which player who moved this summer would you have liked us to sign as competition for a first-team spot, G4? Pastore apparently wanted more guaranteed playing time than we were willing to offer, Sahin and Fabregas were always destined for the two big Spanish clubs, and apart from those three I can't think of anyone on the move who might reach a level that's outstanding in the context of CL/PL contenders. Pjanic, perhaps, though I don't know enough about him to say for sure.

Man U needed slightly different things in central midfield than we did last season, but they also had issues there, and they've also gone without making any major additions there; part of that might be Cleverly and Anderson improving, but part of it is that the transfer market has been very thin at central midfield this year. It could well be that making sure we had six full-time CMs and then looking to spend big in January or next summer was the best plan available - which wouldn't by itself explain Meireles over Benayoun, but would mean that the appropriate argument is which backup CM we'd rather have around.

 

[g3.7]

You honestly think our best midfielder since January is average and only useful to bring on for 15 minutes to close a game out? Wow.

average with the ball is actually what I've said. there is a difference, please don't change what I've said to suit your position of incredulity.

I think we've fallen quite far when our "best midfielder since january" is better chasing the ball than using it. he's essien lite. won't score goals, won't create them. doesn't control games, isn't creative. he's robbie savage with pace, a brazilian alexey smertin. better than them, sure, but he's that type. occasionally he goes on an exciting swp style dribble, chasing after the ball while never looking in complete control. he's the kind of player we used to call "a good squad player" back when we had genuine quality in midfield. the kind of player we all loved to talk about being an unsung hero whilst being thankful that they'd never be regulars. if that is what he was to our squad I'd be happy. personally I prefer midfielders who can play a bit of football now and then. ramires specialises in running about and 10 yard square passes. he's the current shed end darling though, so I expect I'll be in the minority you think this way.

Which player who moved this summer would you have liked us to sign as competition for a first-team spot, G4? Pastore apparently wanted more guaranteed playing time than we were willing to offer, Sahin and Fabregas were always destined for the two big Spanish clubs, and apart from those three I can't think of anyone on the move who might reach a level that's outstanding in the context of CL/PL contenders. Pjanic, perhaps, though I don't know enough about him to say for sure.

Man U needed slightly different things in central midfield than we did last season, but they also had issues there, and they've also gone without making any major additions there; part of that might be Cleverly and Anderson improving, but part of it is that the transfer market has been very thin at central midfield this year. It could well be that making sure we had six full-time CMs and then looking to spend big in January or next summer was the best plan available - which wouldn't by itself explain Meireles over Benayoun, but would mean that the appropriate argument is which backup CM we'd rather have around.

I don't know enough about pastore to comment. I know we needed a no.10, and I know that's what he is. I think we should have looked at sahin, at goetze, at ganso, at hernanes etc. intelligent, creative footballers who could offer us something we've missed. mata is a good buy in this respect, but not enough on his own I suspect. this isn't an issue that's surfaced over night. we've had many windows where we've wasted opportunities to enable an effective transition from the current core group of players to the next.

 

[Davey Baby]

Gullit, I regard Ramires as an outstanding footballer, but that's another story.

I also think Lampard is being written off too soon, but that's another story.

Mikel I have little time for.

You think that midfield three could be strengthened? Guess what? So does AVB. That's why we went for Modric. The sort of player I guess you're clamouring for. A player I rate highly.

We didn't get him. That's life. I'm not sure where your argument lies after that. We will come back, when we target the right player, the player who could walk into that midfield, that we feel is worth the outlay, that is realistic in terms of wages. AVB didn't see anyone else, and that's fine by me, I'm glad he kept his hand in his pocket, it would have been easy to tell Roman to splash the cash. He did not see the creative player you're seeking that ticked those boxes. Meanwhile that first three needed cover. We bought pretty good cover.

Yes, we could do with more creativity in midfield. Xavi is not available. Not many can automatically command a first-team spot.

Benayoun? He did not want him, either because he doesn't rate him, he doesn't like him, he doesn't trust his achilles, or he doesn't want a player that wants out. I don't know, but whichever of those reasons apply, it's good enough for me, just as it should be good enough for the scousers that Dalglish didn't want Mereiles.

As someone else has said, a lot goes on behind the scenes that we're not privvy to. The manager didn't need to lose Benayoun. He chose to. He's a lot closer to what's going on, and I'm damn sure he has good reason. He has to go on his hunches. He was not going to give Benayoun playing time, and he backed his judgement, so much so that he gave him to Arsenal. I admire that. It shows bravery and it shows strength, and that's a good message to give the players. He's not afraid. He believes in himself. He backs his judgement over Wenger's. It's all good.

You think Benayoun gave us something we otherwise lack? He gave us precious little as I remember, and I don't believe he was capable of giving us anything better than we already have. Josh is staying. We have Mata. Sturridge etc. That's three more options compared to last season. All significantly younger. All with their achilles intact.

Mereiles will serve to assist Josh's development. He can stand in for Lamps or Ramires over a run of games (thereby enabling us not to lumber Josh with too much responsibilty too quickly). Benni (a player of insufficient quality in terms of holding a regular spot) will only have hindered him.

Josh is a special talent. We have done the right thing.

 

[Katon]

I don't know enough about pastore to comment. I know we needed a no.10, and I know that's what he is. I think we should have looked at sahin, at goetze, at ganso, at hernanes etc. intelligent, creative footballers who could offer us something we've missed. mata is a good buy in this respect, but not enough on his own I suspect. this isn't an issue that's surfaced over night. we've had many windows where we've wasted opportunities to enable an effective transition from the current core group of players to the next.

I agree that all four of the players you name would have been excellent signings.

There's no reason whatsoever to think we could have signed them.

Sahin had Real Madrid interested, and there are very few players who'd turn them down to come here. Goetze is the hottest property in the German league, owned by the defending champions heading into a CL season; why on earth would Dortmund sell a 19-year-old homegrown star this year for anything short of Ronaldo money? Ganso and Hernanes are less blatantly out of reach, but there's no evidence that their clubs are at all interested in selling either.

In the long run, it's usually possible to find players to fill any given role, and you're right that over the last couple of years we should have done much better at setting up a transition from the Drogba/Lampard/Terry generation to the next. However, there's no guarantee that there'll be a good solution available to a specific problem in one particular transfer window, and I don't see any long-term pieces in central midfield who were realistically available this time out (apart from Modric if Spurs had been willing to sell). I think it's a bit unfair to hold past flaws in transfer policy against current management - this was the first window for both our current manager and director of football, and we signed Mata for now plus four very promising prospects for the future, making this the best window in years in terms of setting up future teams. I'm prepared to give them the benefit of the doubt and see what the plan in central midfield looks like a year from now (one idea I've heard mooted would be waiting until Lille are out of the CL and they might be willing to sell Hazard; if that works, it'd be a better idea than anything we could've done in August).

 

[g3.7]

clubs aren't interested in selling their better players generally, Katon.

 

[Spiller86]

Interesting little discussion. I have to agree with G4 in much of what he has said. Particularly about Ramires. He's certainly solid and can play a role, but the lineup we have we can't really afford to be fielding him as a first choice player too often. He was fine at Benfica and also with Brazil, because their creativity in the form of Aimar and De Maria and Kaka, Robinho, Ganso respectively allows him to play a more functional role.

Here we have no such luxury. Mata may in time alleviate those concerns but right now as things stand we require someone who can contribute with and without the ball in that second midfield role next to Lampard. Modric was obviously ideal, but given that didn't eventuate, Meireles will in the main fill that second position.

I think where your criticism may perhaps go too far G4 is the suggestion that we've wasted opportunities to move core players on and get in these younger creative players. That may be true of past windows, but I don't think it is true of this one. To move on the core players they've got to want to move. Not many are going to want to take pay cuts and downgrade teams at this stage in their careers. You can't just make them disappear. I think the reason we didn't see the wholesale changes we might have thought would occur comes down to this. FFP applies from now on, and you can't just stack players onto the wage bill if you can't trim it from somewhere else. I firmly believe that if we had have been able to move on some senior players on big wage packets, then greater changes may have been made. That also has a lot to do with Yossi being moved on if you ask me. The wage bill needed to be trimmed as it was and Yossi was the only one who would consider a move away. So while he may have contributed more to the team than someone like Kalou, trimming the wage bill was seen as more important in the long run given FFP consideration, which I'd imagine we are battling hard to try and meet.

 

[cfckeane]

Ramires will contribute more to the team than Benayoun would have this season.

For a player who has only played 8 competitive games for us, reading people's opinions on him on here, you'd think he'd be hailed as our saviour from a lifetime of sideways passing mediocrity. AVB would not let him go if he thought we'd need him this year. We now have Meireles, Lampard, Mata, Ramires, Mikel, Romeu and McEachran to fill 3 midfield slots until Essien comes back in January. As was mentioned before I'd much rather see Josh coming on midway through the second half then Benayoun.

This is a massive gamble for Wenger as well, although with a midfield of Wilshere, Song, Arteta, Rosicky, Ramsey, Diaby and now Frimpong, his chances will probably be as limited as if he were here.

 

[Katon]

clubs aren't interested in selling their better players generally, Katon.

Then why complain that we weren't able to land a star central midfielder?

The main reasons clubs sell players of the calibre we want are because they're in financial trouble or because the player wants to move on and kicks up a fuss. Category A didn't cover anyone interesting this window (well, Mata, but we landed him). Category B had Sahin going to Real, which we didn't stand much chance of hijacking, almost had Modric, and . . . nobody else, really, as Gotze and Hazard* both seem to want to play in the CL at least once with the clubs that developed them (and Gotze's never made any noise suggesting he was interested in leaving Dortmund at all) and Santos' players seem content to stick around til the end of the Club World Cup. Santos and Lille, in particular, are currently in the best financial/competitive position to hold onto their stars that they're likely to achieve for years, and both will probably demand (at least slightly) less ridiculous fees once they're not competing in major competitions.

Rephrasing my earlier question: who would you like the club to bring in as a possible starter here, whose club would likely sell for a reasonable fee and who would likely choose us over his available alternatives?

*Yes, I know you mentioned Hernanes and not Hazard. I'm bringing Hazard in because he's another player whose availability the club should be looking at, he's a good example of the point I'm trying to make, and frankly I know more about his circumstances.

 

[g3.7]

Then why complain that we weren't able to land a star central midfielder?

I'm not. I'm complaining that we've loaned out a creative player when that is an area in which we lack. I'm also unimpressed with our signing a player who adds more of the same.

the point I was making above is that the quality of player we need are never openly available. essien wasn't. drogba wasn't. torres wasn't. luiz wasn't. carvalho wasn't. you have to make the club accept it. so to ask who I'd want who was available is to miss the point.

 

[SydneyChelsea]

The big point being missed is the assumption that Meireles isn't creative.

He's no Mata or Modric, but neither is Benayoun for that matter. Meireles has excellent movement and is capable of playing smart, short passes when needed, perhaps not to the extent of Benayoun, but he is also capable of hitting longer passes that Benayoun wouldn't try in a million years.

 

[Katon]

I'm not. I'm complaining that we've loaned out a creative player when that is an area in which we lack. I'm also unimpressed with our signing a player who adds more of the same.

the point I was making above is that the quality of player we need are never openly available. essien wasn't. drogba wasn't. torres wasn't. luiz wasn't. carvalho wasn't. you have to make the club accept it. so to ask who I'd want who was available is to miss the point.

Fair enough. I'd argue that, for the reasons above (Dortmund/Lille/Santos having major competitions they want to take a shot at, Sahin being Real-bound), most of the good options this window were openly unavailable rather than just not openly available. Looking at your list, Essien/Drogba/Luiz/Carvalho we got at the point where they wanted to take a step up in terms of quality of league, Torres we got because he wanted to have a chance of actually winning the PL. This time around, the Torres analogue's club refused to sell, and most of the players currently in raidable leagues have suggested they want to stick around for one season of their developing clubs' next great adventure (be it the Club World Cup, the CL, or Eurodisney). We don't need the clubs to be publicly willing to sell, but we do need players who want to move to a non-Real-or-Barca major CL contender, and apart from Modric none of the likeliest candidates seem to be quite at that stage of their careers.

In any case, given that we weren't willing to offer enough to persuade anyone to sell the unsellable, the only question on deadline day would be which 7/10 player to use squad and wage space on. AVB seems to have thought that additional depth in the box-to-box CM role was more important than Benayoun's ability to play further forward; I can see why you find that a frustrating decision, and I'm nervy about it myself, but ultimately I think we have to trust the manager on that kind of question of judgement, especially since (for my money) the rest of the transfer window has been very intelligently handled.

 

[Nibs]

average with the ball is actually what I've said. there is a difference, please don't change what I've said to suit your position of incredulity.

I think we've fallen quite far when our "best midfielder since january" is better chasing the ball than using it. he's essien lite. won't score goals, won't create them. doesn't control games, isn't creative. he's robbie savage with pace, a brazilian alexey smertin. better than them, sure, but he's that type. occasionally he goes on an exciting swp style dribble, chasing after the ball while never looking in complete control. he's the kind of player we used to call "a good squad player" back when we had genuine quality in midfield. the kind of player we all loved to talk about being an unsung hero whilst being thankful that they'd never be regulars. if that is what he was to our squad I'd be happy. personally I prefer midfielders who can play a bit of football now and then. ramires specialises in running about and 10 yard square passes. he's the current shed end darling though, so I expect I'll be in the minority you think this way.

Classic.

I have to say, that is a great description of Ramires. I do like Ramires and I'm glad we have him, but I just can't agrue with that description. It says a lot about our current midfield when he's been the pick of the bunch for pretty much the last season.

But chatting with fellow Cheslea fans last night, you can see what AVB is building for the future. In another season or so, there will be no Lamps, Drogba, Anelka, Malouda, JT, Ash, Essien but the nucleas of our side will be

Mata, Josh, Ramires, Sturridge, Piazon, Luiz, Lukaku, PVA/Bertrand - possibly Kakuta and Romeu?. With a few more additions over the next couple of seasons, that looks to be the basis of a good young team.

 

[german-blue]

average with the ball is actually what I've said. there is a difference, please don't change what I've said to suit your position of incredulity.

I think we've fallen quite far when our "best midfielder since january" is better chasing the ball than using it. he's essien lite. won't score goals, won't create them. doesn't control games, isn't creative. he's robbie savage with pace, a brazilian alexey smertin. better than them, sure, but he's that type. occasionally he goes on an exciting swp style dribble, chasing after the ball while never looking in complete control. he's the kind of player we used to call "a good squad player" back when we had genuine quality in midfield. the kind of player we all loved to talk about being an unsung hero whilst being thankful that they'd never be regulars. if that is what he was to our squad I'd be happy. personally I prefer midfielders who can play a bit of football now and then. ramires specialises in running about and 10 yard square passes. he's the current shed end darling though, so I expect I'll be in the minority you think this way.

That is a good post G4...Ramires certainly cant do no wrong at the moment. Its a bit like when everyone thought Ivanovic would be the worlds best RB.

 

[dkw]

average with the ball is actually what I've said. there is a difference, please don't change what I've said to suit your position of incredulity.

I think we've fallen quite far when our "best midfielder since january" is better chasing the ball than using it. he's essien lite. won't score goals, won't create them. doesn't control games, isn't creative. he's robbie savage with pace, a brazilian alexey smertin. better than them, sure, but he's that type. occasionally he goes on an exciting swp style dribble, chasing after the ball while never looking in complete control. he's the kind of player we used to call "a good squad player" back when we had genuine quality in midfield. the kind of player we all loved to talk about being an unsung hero whilst being thankful that they'd never be regulars. if that is what he was to our squad I'd be happy. personally I prefer midfielders who can play a bit of football now and then. ramires specialises in running about and 10 yard square passes. he's the current shed end darling though, so I expect I'll be in the minority you think this way.

I don't know enough about pastore to comment. I know we needed a no.10, and I know that's what he is. I think we should have looked at sahin, at goetze, at ganso, at hernanes etc. intelligent, creative footballers who could offer us something we've missed. mata is a good buy in this respect, but not enough on his own I suspect. this isn't an issue that's surfaced over night. we've had many windows where we've wasted opportunities to enable an effective transition from the current core group of players to the next.

Thats massively harsh on Ramires, he does a lot more than just run about chasing the ball, though that is sort of how he was used last season. He is still only young though, and he shows he has a lot more to his game than those you mentioned already, he does something none of our current midfielders did since Essien got injured and thats take the defence on from midfield, running at them with pace. As for your comment on Pastore, I agree as when we were linked I said I had`nt seen anywhere near enough of him to know whether he is what we need or not. I also dont know enough about the players you mention as an alternative, but the one I wish we had gone for and I have seen enough of is Marek Hamsik.

 

[g3.7]

hamsik is a good shout actually.

my fear is ramires is playing close to the best we can expect. I'm not hopeful that he'll become a vieira or even an essien, but as I've said elsewhere, if we played a 4231 with a really high quality no.10 then he would have no real responsibility to be creative or expansive. in a 433 starting alongside lampard though, I'd like him to bring more to the table.

my issues with him as as much issues with lampard and issues with his deployment by his managers.

 

[barak81]

not to add to his points because there well made and pretty much some up what I think, about ramires and the buisness done on deadline day which left a bitter taste in the mouth after a pretty much fruitfull window

Have to say I agree with pretty much everything G4 has written in the entire thread. which probably means I should be finding a tall building to jump of some where.

I dont normaly agree with everything he says but I have to admit it makes for interesting debating because his opinions tend to be his own based on what he has seen of players or the way we have played (normaly wrong though)

I cant for the life of me understand the argument point of: Because the manager says so.....

I mean why are you on a forum if the only point you want to make is, I'm sure the manager know's what he's doing, Or I think the manager knows better then you. And He thinks so, so thats good enough for me....Scousers do that and we'r better then them. And if thats are reasoning for any and everything the manager does then who are we to critise the signings of other managers, why are we having a go at liverpool buying belamy. By default I would asume that if we are going to trust AVB absaloutly then the other managers must know what there doing as well?

I really wanted to see AVB given the job, couldnt think of any one I wanted more, very excited by his appointement, but I'm not about to just say he must be right all the time because I wanted him as manager.

IMO Lamps should have started and finished all our games so far this season, Ivanovich is our best right back from a deffencive point of view (and i like my full backs to deffend) and josh and yossi should have had more chances. How ever he has also highlighted and attempted to address our biggest issue. the supply to the strikers, which is great to see.

 

[dkw]

hamsik is a good shout actually.

my fear is ramires is playing close to the best we can expect. I'm not hopeful that he'll become a vieira or even an essien, but as I've said elsewhere, if we played a 4231 with a really high quality no.10 then he would have no real responsibility to be creative or expansive. in a 433 starting alongside lampard though, I'd like him to bring more to the table.

my issues with him as as much issues with lampard and issues with his deployment by his managers.

I think theres a lot more to come from Ramires, when asked to keep the ball he can, when asked to play it easy he can, when asked to run with it he can. I do agree his useage by Ancelotti was as a fetcher and carrier, but I also think he can do more. He seems to play a different role for Brazil for example, and at Benfica he was certainly more than just a "water carrier".

 

[barak81]

On ramires I think he would have been a pretty decent option in a midfield with say Josh and modric essetialy with no fixed defensive midfield but ramires acting more in the spoiling role. However with lampard and mikel its all very sideways

 

[bjd]

On ramires I think he would have been a pretty decent option in a midfield with say Josh and modric essetialy with no fixed defensive midfield but ramires acting more in the spoiling role. However with lampard and mikel its all very sideways

Totally agree. normally i agree word for word with everything you say G4 but i do think you are being a little harsh on Ramiries. I think he is a good player and its a little unfair to says he just runs about a lot. Theres a difference between a good player and a great player and Ramires certainly falls into the latter category and id agree i cant ever see him making that jump up to great player but right now he brings more to the table than Mikel and Frank and fully deserves his place in the first XI.

Right now there are far bigger issues to look at with those other 2 midfielders than with Ramires if you ask me.