Charlie_B

World class player, no doubt. Does his antics rile you??

Lampard-Gerrard debate aside, Steven Gerrard is a fantastic footballer. Whether you believe Lampard to be better than him doesn't make Gerrard any less of a footballer, does it??? Yes, off the pitch, there has been a singular issue. If guilty, Gerrard will face his punishment, as he should. I stress, this is an isolated incident. Like Lampard and Terry, Gerrard generally lives his off-pitch lifestyle quietly (the odd wedding shoot in OK! aside). Lest we forget John Terry isn't a stranger to a run in with the law, and was charged with assault and affray (sound familiar??) and was cleared of both. In July, we can establish Gerrard's credence as a "criminal". As the Gerrard-Lampard debate rages on, I don't think anyone can say either player isn't a fantastic player for their club. Both have missed the mark with their country. But then in this England team, until they win something, until they defeat the big sides, they never will. As a Liverpool fan, of course, I lean to Gerrard more than Lampard. Doesn't make Lampard any less of a great player though. They both have different strengths and attributes. They both have various medals in their cabinet the other doesn't. Doesn't make Gerrard any less of a player though, and if he does win the PFA Player of the season, he'll deserve it. Saying that, how Lampard wasn't listed I don't know, but then Van der Saar was, what a joke.

You got a link to it, I'd be interested to take a look.

Ok, maybe I didn't state what I meant. What I meant was that yes, there were f**k ups higher up in the police and that led to those on the ground being ordered to do things that weren't conducive with helping the fans - that is beating those that were trying to escape so they fell back into the pens, and the lining up of the force on the half way line, as well as preventing the emergency services gaining entry to the pitch. As far as those Liverpool fans that spat at and assaulted those trying to help, I'm not refuting your claim here, but I'd be interested to see where you got your information from, as I haven't heard ANYTHING about that in the research I've done, barring what the Sun published, and we all know what happened there.

You keep bringing up Athens, and I don't think we disagree on this matter - Liverpool fans were at fault, I'm not denying or defending them. I am saying that Athens probably could have been avoided if UEFA had allocated (both sets of) fans more. That is not me defending those who did that, at all. In terms of what happened at Stamford Bridge, and at the Emirates I was unaware that this was a problem. If it was a case of ticketless fans rushing the gates, then they too were at fault. I'm not hiding behind anything here. Trying to get into a match without a ticket is not acceptable. My point on Hillsborough, and the Justice campaign, is that it is almost a separate issue to the disaster itself. The Justice campaign is to uncover the lies and the coverups that have gone on since 1989. It's the fact that those responsible have never been brought to justice. Ticketless fans were present at the match, as they are at most matches, is it right? No. Was it the cause of the disaster? No. The LJT Report ruled that they were not a factor that resulted in the death of those fans. The same report laid blame at the feet of the South Yorkshire Police, and yet not a single penny was docked from the wages of those concerned and not a single person lost their job. Take Heysel - generally considered to be the fault of Liverpool fans. Agreed. However, the Chief Exec of the Belgian FA lost his job, and another guy (I can't remember the position he held) went to prison for 9 months, they guy was about 70 I believe. Take THIS problem - when the authorities were FAR less to blame than the fans, and then compare it to Hillsborough. Also, yes, Liverpool fans may act inappropriately subsequent to the events of 1989, but that doesn't mean that justice shouldn't be done for the 96, their families, the survivors and those who were affected by the disaster. Every team has fans who are dickheads and I'm not defending these people. What I'm talking about has nothing to do with the sh*tty behaviour of a minority today, it has to do with what took place twenty years ago.

I'm not arguing that any other catastrophe is others' fault. The inquiry came to the conclusions that the fans were blameless, and the police were not. Are you telling me that if there hadn't been any alcohol consumed that it wouldn't have happened? Of course not. Or that if it were only those with tickets, it wouldn't have happened? Of course not. These two factors didn't help the situation, but they sure as hell didn't cause it. I'm not saying Heysel or any subsequent problem has nothing to do with the behaviour of the fans. If you read what I have written I have said that Liverpool fans, for the main part, were at fault for what happened at Heysel and Athens. And to say that the actions of the Liverpool supporters didn't help in any way? I know you didn't mean that, as that is ridiculous. It wasn't ambulancemen (as they weren't allowed on the pitch) or the police that were helping to save lives that day, it was Liverpool fans. You can hate my club, you can hate the en masse nature of the fans that I am part of, but what you are saying is simply untrue.

How? Athens was made worse by Liverpool fans storming the gates and generally acting unacceptably. The same criticism cannot be laid at the fans that were in the Leppings Lane.

As in pens. That's what they were referred to at the time, and it hasn't changed since. If you look at the diagram on this link: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/7992845.stm it explains what I mean. The away end then is like most ends even today, except it was sectioned off into four "enclosures" if you will, surrounded by chicken wire and had metal fences at the front to stop pitch invasions (at the time, the opinion of all football fans was generally one of classless, scumbags who deserved what they got).

I didn't try and defend what happened in Athens, sorry if it seemed that way, I put across reasons why the fans behaved (wrongly) as they did. Athens was a botched operation, unhelped by the behaviour of Liverpool fans. Simple. Parry's comments were unhelpful at best, something I have already said. I am not trying to defend the behaviour of fans at Athens, as what they did was wrong. I am merely saying the situation was avoidable had UEFA (and the Club, no less) acted differently. There's a big difference.

Can I ask why? Liverpool fans were to blame for Athens, I haven't said anything different. They aren't solely to blame, is what I'm trying to convey. I'm not defending those who stormed gates and stole tickets.

Hillsborough was possibly more avoidable than Munich, and that's what really bites with the fans of Liverpool FC. The police managed the situation poorly. They didn't check who had tickets and who didn't. They opened the gate and told 2,000 fans to go through it, regardless of having a ticket. As Stewards of the day, it was their responsibility to direct the fans into less crowded areas - they didn't. They should have delayed the KO, they didn't. It didn't happen in the Forrest End because of the FA's poor allocation of tickets - They gave the supporters with a larger number of tickets (valid ones at that) the smaller ground. There were Liverpool fans with tickets in other areas of the ground directed into the Lepping Lane End. Once the crushing began there additional problems - the police ignored calls from the pens to help - they bashed back people who were trying to escape the pens, which ultimately led to more death and injury. The Police formed a line on the half way line and didn't allow ambulances and the other emergency services onto the pitch. There were DOZENS of ambulances outside the ground that never made it onto the pitch. Of the 96 dead, only 17(?) made it to hospital. It's not a case of "blame". It's a case of responsibility. The FA f**ked up, the police f**ked up (and subsequently lied and tried to cover up) and yet no one has ever been held accountable for what happened. There is a second issue here, and that's the investigation that followed, which, if you read what I've written before (I only have a small number of posts, all in this thread, so it shouldn't be too random) then I have outlined those too.

Miss actually, but I'll let you off. Firstly, blaming ticketless fans is ridiculous. Why? Because at every sold out match up and down the country, there are ticketless fans wanting to get in - trying to buy off touts, etc. The problem was that the police, as was their job, were supposed to stop ticketless fans getting in. Secondly, there was no form of storming the gates at Hillsborough at all. There was a bottlenecking of people trying to get in, no storming. The police, as has been documented, told large groups of people to enter the pens without checking tickets. If you were there at Wembley this weekend, and without a ticket, to the FA Cup semi final, and were told yo go in, would you turn round and say "Sorry mate, haven't got a ticket, watching it in the pub"? Of course you wouldn't, no one would do that. There will now be the argument that these ticketless fans shouldn't have been trying to get in. The LJT report stated that the number of these that were in the Leppings Lane End were small, and although their presence contributed, it wasn't this that was the overriding factor. Thirdly, and I don't know why, cos I've never done it before, I feel the need to defend Rick Parry. The capacity of the Stadium in Athens was 72,000 but was reduced by 9,000 to accommodate further advertising, ffs. Of these 63,000 tickets, only 34,000 were allocated to the fans of both LFC and AC Milan. That's 54% of tickets going to the fans. Does that not sound ridiculous to anyone else?? In 2005, 20,000 tickets were allocated to Liverpool supporters and a further 40,000 supporters managed to get into the stadium that night. Parry was merely saying that the same would happen in 2006. His wording wasn't the best, let's be honest. At the time, the club were appealing to UEFA to get both themselves and AC Milan a larger share of the tickets. Was he advocating what his wording suggests, no. It was a very poor choice of words, and in no way suggesting Liverpool fans would storm the gates. Thousands of fans go to the city of the Final without tickets every year, and in 2006, it went wrong, and Liverpool fans were rightly condemned for their behaviour. I'd advise those who believe Liverpool fans to be solely to blame to reread the reports - fans with tickets were turned away, it's ridiculous. There is no doubting the behaviour of a number of Liverpool fans was unacceptable, but the problems were completely avoidable.

The point isn't why the policemen made the call to let more fans in, the point is they did it, and no one believes that that was the right thing to do. The general criticisms of the police that day were of those higher up - why did they allocate the Leppings Lane to the larger group of fans? Why were the men on the ground ordered to beat back those trying to escape when the CCTV clearly showed there were problems? Why did Duckinfield lie about opening the gates? Why wasn't the kick off delayed? Why did a number of CCTV tapes go missing on the evening of April 15th? Why were junior police statements changed (by higher police officials) before being submitted to Lord Justice Taylor. Opening the gates was the wrong call. It wasn't made deliberately, but the people concerned should stand up and take responsibilty and admit that it was this very call that led to the events that followed. Lord Justice Taylor found that the tragedy was as a direct result of the failure of police control. That isn't the problem. The problem the families and fans have is the aftermath. The lies and the coverup for one. Secondly, and possibly more importantly - the coroner's decision to rule that every one who died had died, or was braindead by 3.15. This meant that any evidence afterwards wasn't looked into. There is so much evidence to the contrary. Ambulancemen who made it onto the field were giving CPR, felt pulses and had verbal responses from some of the "dead" as late as 4pm. And as it stands, these families are being told their loved ones were dead, or as good as, by 3.15 - when there is contradictory evidence that wasn't even considered by the LJT Report and hasn't been since

Just a note on the heckling today. I was there, and the majority of people present at Anfield today felt that the unplanned presence of a government official at the service without giving any new assurances of opening up a new enquiry, was just a case of having a government representative there for publicity reasons. When he first stood up, people felt that something new was going to be said, the government might finally give these people what they have deserved for twenty years. What they got? A reassurance from Gordon Brown that the 96 would never be forgotten. Very empty IMO. I felt sorry for the guy himself; a guy from Merseyside - I'm aware he couldn't give assurances he wasn't qualified to give, but he shouldn't have been there in a government capacity if that was all he was there for.

I was at Anfield a week ago (unfortunately!) to watch the first leg, and as usual, enjoyed directing our anti-Chelsea song at the away end. I was tickled to hear the f**k Your History retort - football is banter, it wouldn't be the same without it. Obviously, like I say, every team has their idiots, and Liverpool is no different (nor worse, I hasten to add). The number of matches between the two clubs and the magnitude of the matches in the last five years has clearly made these idiots more prevalent. The Liverpool-Chelsea rivalry is relatively new, yes, but it has certainly added to the modern game, as far as I'm concerned. I watched last years first leg in a Liverpool dominated pub with a single Chelsea fan getting quite a bit of stick from these lads throughout the match. Riise's own goal goes in, stunned silence, and the ringleader as it were, crosses the pub and shakes this girl's hand. It's just football at the end of the day. We all live and breathe the game, but the Hillsborough tragedy does bring it all back that it isn't as important as a person's life. Arsenal - Chelsea semi final isn't the time or the place for a minute's applause. It's a halfhearted gesture from the FA, as they cannot guarantee a silence, as they couldn't in the second semi. Bearing in mind here, I'm not attacking the fans of any of the four clubs. Liverpool, their fans, and the families of the 96 haven't put any pressure here on the FA, it's a very poor decision on their part. No one is shoving Hillsborough down peoples' throats. There are fans across the board that don't understand the atrocities and magnitude that took place that day. I am 21, and had I not been educated, then I wouldn't know what on earth was going on. It's not a case of bombarding people - it's a case of making sure that 96 people lost their lives in a completely avoidable disaster. It's a case of the families and friends having no one stand up and take accountability for the problems that took place. There are people that want 15/4/1989 consigned to history, but it's important for all football fans to remember. The FA made poor decisions, the police made poor decisions, and the subsequent enquiries were insufficient. Imagine losing a ten year old child to a football match, and never having a sufficient explanation as to why he was allowed to be crushed to death? And subsequently the pens not being opened, ambulances not being allowed to take to the pitch, and an investigation taking place into what actually happened? THAT is why the HJC still fights on, and yes, too political for many (Liverpool fans here too) but the main message still rings through. Many may say, move on, stop dwelling, but there are families who have been told lies and cover ups and have no explanation for the events that took place. And that's why we still fight.

Liverpool fan here. I'm not here to give any abuse, so I hope that the same can be done my way. Liverpool fans aren't perfect. They aren't angels. As ANY club has, there is a minority of fans that behave in ways the majority don't approve of. I haven't ever met or spoken to a Liverpool fan who denies Liverpool fans were responsible for the Heysel tragedy. 39 people died that day as a result of the behaviour of Liverpool fans. Hillsborough has received wide press coverage today, as it did twenty years ago. From what I read here, that coverage is overdone as far as many of you are concerned. Fair play. Similarly - I haven't ever spoken to a Liverpool fan that denies that there were Liverpool fans present in the Leppings Lane End that weren't drunk and/or didn't have tickets. The same can be said for many high profile football matches across the Continent. Hillsborough was a sad day. I myself, was 15 months old, and clearly have no recollection of the events. I am a very proud Liverpool fan, and consider the way in which I conduct myself to be more than acceptable. As I have said; Liverpool, like ANY OTHER CLUB, have fans that cross the line; inside and outside the ground. The tragedy at Hillsborough was not as a result of drunkenness or ticketless fans. The police were rightly blamed; they dealt with the day's events horribly. Yes, there were ticketless fans trying to get into the ground, but it was the job of the police to refuse them entry - it was negligence on their part to allow these fans into the ground. It was similar negligence not to direct these same fans into the emptier pens. I can understand that the news coverage today has been focused on the tragedy - and how that may not seem relevant to the majority of those outside of Merseyside. I was at that memorial today. The grief those families and the club feels to this day, is as strong as it was 20 years ago. No one asked those newspapers and those film crews to come in today. No one asked that it be "shoved down your throat". It was a memorial for anyone that wanted it - whether that be Liverpool fans, Merseysiders, non-Merseysiders. There is a strong feeling of injustice - police statements were doctored in order to shift blame off the police and on to the fans. Similarly, the feeling towards the Sun newspaper is as strong today as it was twenty years ago. No one is asking Chelsea fans, or whoever, to respond to the disaster; the memorial was for the families and anyone else who wished to attend. It was appreciated that Chelsea players wore the black armbands last night as a mark of respect. The FA's choice to hold a minute's applause at the game on Saturday is a peculiar one; but you can see the reasons why they have chosen to do so. Would I have made that decision, probably not. Ultimately, 96 people died that day, and twenty years on no one has been held accountable for a disaster that could so easily have been avoided. That is the issue here. That, and the slurs and lies directed at people who were doing their utmost to save their fellow fans. Does this make Liverpool fans better than any other? Of course not. But some of the responses to this thread already have highlighted a few people that are of that dreaded minority of every football club's fanbase. The FA have decided Saturday is a time to remember the 96, not criticise the fact that you are being told to remember them Congratulations of the progression to the semi finals of the CL - you deserved it.