Scousers remembered

[BLUENUT]

Copied from CFC.net

from the Guardian

"The FA is planning to host representatives of the victim's families at Wembley on 18 April, when Chelsea play Arsenal or Hull City in the first FA Cup semi-final. The FA chairman, Lord Triesman, will present relatives of the victims with flowers before the game. There will also be one minute of applause as a mark of respect."

[Lofty]

Copied from CFC.net

There will also be one minute of applause as a mark of respect."

Not from me there won't.

Applause? For what?

It's obvious the FA won't risk a minute's silence. And why.

[BLUENUT]

Not from me there won't.

Applause? For what?

It's obvious the FA won't risk a minute's silence. And why.

I was waiting for you to reply to that.

Why pick a game between to London clubs? - just goes to show how out of touch the FA are with the real world

[geezer]

Can someone tell me when the people who died in the Bradford fire are remembered? Or the fans killed at Heysel? Or those at Rangers? Tragic though it was why is it only the Liverpool fans who get remembered?

[BLUENUT]

Can someone tell me when the people who died in the Bradford fire are remembered? Or the fans killed at Heysel? Or those at Rangers? Tragic though it was why is it only the Liverpool fans who get remembered?

The city of self pity!

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-36...ad-chicken.html

some great comments on this one:

http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/new...uawk_alone.html

Edited March 25, 2009 by BLUENUT

[magoo]

Some people in this world seem to enjoy wallowing in a sea of pity.

Jade Goody's funeral will be another cringe/pity/false grief farce.

[TheWestwayWonder]

I dont think its the most appropriate occasion, but certainly marking it the next day, even with a club from Liverpool involved, might be a disaster

[loz]

I think Geezer's point is very valid however I don't see anything wrong in remembering the dead at our game irrespective of the fact it is a game between two London clubs.

Irrespective of the extent to which you think a section of Liverpool fans carry some culpability for what happened that day, we can surely all agree that the likelihood is that those who you would deem to be culpable are not those who ended up losing their lives in such tragic circumstances.

Is it wrong to show a little respect to those who died, and those who lost loved ones? In my mind it isn't. Is it odd that people are expected to show respect for this event and not others (as Geezer mentions)? Yes it is. As a result it makes much more sense to leave individual clubs to choose their own occasions as otherwise there will be one minute silences every week. Let Liverpool mark their own losses, Bradford theirs, Rangers theirs etc etc.

However I do find it sad that we need a minute's applause rather than a minute's silence with the reason for it being that some people will chooose to disrupt a minute's silence and thus the applause idea is not out of decency but designed to save face.

Irrespective of what an individual's opinion might be about the rights and wrongs over choosing to show a little respect on the day, surely we can all be human enough not to choose that very moment to express our feelings.

Yes I hate Liverpool, yes I hate Spurs, yes I hate Leeds etc etc etc but people died, children lost their parents, parents lose their children, wives lost their husbands and some of those people may just be tuning in. Is it so hard to keep your mouth shut for 60 seconds, so hard to realise that irrespective of who you/they support they are still people who, on the anniversary of their loved one's death, still feel a devastating sadness, still ache for the loss of someone they love. I don't think that keeping your gob shut is too much to ask.

So, for me, if the FA are out of touch with the real world then it is shame on the real world, not the FA.

[clubhappy]

Agree with a lot of what you say Loz, and i dont want to come across as 2 faced here but i'd find it very difficult to show any more compassion . Yes it was a tragic loss of life but moments like this only fuel their self centered opinion of themselves and their continued requests for media attention. In 1989 we all did our bit for Hillsborough , im f**ked if im doing any more sympathy requests on their behalf because its shoved in our faces here 24/7.

[loz]

That is fair enough clubber - I am not actually saying everyone is obliged to feel and show compassion. All I mean is that surely nobody needs to go as far as disrupting a minutes silence - that for me is a big step too far.

[Lofty]

Loz. What's wrong is the way the FA are trying to enforce a show of respect/sympathy, call it what you like. And I do find it insulting the way that only "their" disasters are deemed worthy of such attention. Ok 96 people died, but we've had 20 years of "Justice for the 96".

Putting all hatred aside - you mention Leeds, I thought it was bang out of order the way Uefa and everyone else managed to brush aside the events in Istanbul - when those Leeds fans were stabbed to death. With Scousers, it's one thing after another. From Heysel to Hillsborough to Michael effing Shields - as clubhappy says, we get their disasters endlessly rammed down our throats. Keep it in Liverpool. Fine, I can respect that. But I see no good reason for fans of any other clubs to have this forced on to them year after year, decade after decade.

There are to be a series of events in Liverpool, and that's fine. There's also to be a memorial song, maybe a memorial album released:

BIG names from Liverpool’s music scene will contribute to an album to commemorate the 20th anniversary of the Hillsborough disaster.

The album, as yet untitled, will feature Lightning Seeds frontman Ian Brodie and Elvis Costello, who will record a version of Paint The Town Red.

The CD will also include a recording of the famous Kop anthem The Fields Of Anfield Road, for which an extra third verse has been written specifically about the events of April 15, 1989.

The album may also include contributions from Pete Wylie, of The Mighty Wahs, and Cast singer John Power.

Yesterday, the Lord Mayor of Liverpool, Cllr Steve Rotheram, met with families of Hillsborough victims at the town hall to officially announce this year’s civic honours list.

The Farm’s Peter Hooton, who is overseeing the production of the album, said: “It should be a three or four-track CD and will be available on all formats – we are also looking at doing a vinyl version.

“There is also talk of doing a version of The Bangles’ Eternal Flame, which was a predominant track at the time of Hillsborough and brings back memories of that period for a lot of people.â€

Liverpool council is also considering holding a period of silence in the city centre at 3.06pm on April 15.

Another idea being discussed would see the bells of Liverpool cathedral rang 96 times, once for each victim.

All this, kept within the confines of Merseyside is fine. How can I criticise? Even if I feel it to be a little over the top, it's not my business to criticise.

What I can criticise, like I said, is the enforced "you shall remember, you shall respect" doctrine, and that, in conjunction with fact that the Bradford fire, the Ibrox disaster, and any number of international stadium disasters go unmentioned, is unforgivable.

Sorry, but I've had it up to here and then some with Scousers being endlessly portrayed as special cases.

[bjd]

Yes I hate Liverpool, yes I hate Spurs, yes I hate Leeds etc etc etc but people died, children lost their parents, parents lose their children, wives lost their husbands and some of those people may just be tuning in. Is it so hard to keep your mouth shut for 60 seconds, so hard to realise that irrespective of who you/they support they are still people who, on the anniversary of their loved one's death, still feel a devastating sadness, still ache for the loss of someone they love. I don't think that keeping your gob shut is too much to ask.

Im with you 100% Loz.

Im no fan of Liverpool , mainly because of the fans, and i do think at times somes of us go way over the top in regards to them so much so i think we are in danger of having a full on Fulham/QPR syndrome - but a sporting rivalry becomes irrelevant in comparison to a rememberance of what happened that horrific day.

Remember the Spurs fans reaction when Matty Harding died in that first game back ? It couldve been awful but they were very respectful and I will never forget that. I hope we behave in a similar fashion.

I (hopefully) will be at Wembley and i will be giving applause, and I hope the Chelsea fans around me will as well. Lets show ourselves as a decent bunch , lets shows some respect - 60 seconds of hand claps is all it takes and then we can go back to singing about Arsene Wenger.

[Lofty]

I think you're missing the point. If we were playing them, as was the case v Tottenham, then all well and good. Would you expect there to be a minute's silence or applause for Matthew Harding at a Merseyside derby? Because I wouldn't. Neither, in my opinion, should there be an enforced remembrance for Liverpool fans at a London derby.

[Barn]

How will it go down if they get a good 60 seconds of clapping from the Chelsea fans but that's followed up with a big redition of "You kill your own fans"?

I feel for the family's that the FA are putting out there infront of us at wemberly because it's not fair to have people being disrespectful to a dead family member. That said, it's nothing to do with us and it happened 20 years ago, why can't we just move on from it, if liverpool don't want to then fine. I can't help but feel that the FA are almost doing this so that they've got a stick to beat us with. We don't like them most of us are sick of hearing about how people do them wrong and that's why their fans suffer. So if we do observe the memories properly nothing will be said, if we don't we be slaughtered by the press and the FA.

I wonder what the arsenal fans think of it?

[bjd]

I can't help but feel that the FA are almost doing this so that they've got a stick to beat us with.

So we are into conspiracy theory territory now too?!!!

I can't help but feel this is such a big deal to some because it's liverpool. I've it had been nottingham forest would this thread exist. The fa are asking us to respect those who died at the same stage of the football competition we are playing in 20 years ago. That's all, they are not asking us to sing songs about Liverpool ffs.

[Lofty]

So we are into conspiracy theory territory now too?!!!

I can't help but feel this is such a big deal to some because it's liverpool. I've it had been nottingham forest would this thread exist. The fa are asking us to respect those who died at the same stage of the football competition we are playing in 20 years ago. That's all, they are not asking us to sing songs about Liverpool ffs.

Well it doesn't exactly help, does it.

- Liverpool fans blaming us for Heysel

- Liverpool fans in fact refusing to take any responsibility, ever

- Liverpool fans declaring Stamford Bridge a Dodgy Helicopter zone

- Liverpool fans storming the gates, turning up with old tickets etc at the Bridge

Which is going to happen again. From RAWK:

Was looking for something last night and found 3 chelsea tickets from last year, they arrived after the game so had to get duplicates, they are perfect full tickets for chelsea champions league in april, how well do they look at these tickets on the way on. mate of mine is dying to go will i tell him chance it. He can always say he bought them from a tout if he is caught.

What do you think the chances are

And so on. Ad nauseum.

No it doesn't help at all.

[Mike O]

Hillsborough was an awful human tragedy, one that will be felt most poignantly by anyone who's taken a child to a footy match. We should never forget what happened or how it happened, so that we can ensure that it never happens again.

With that in mind, a couple of points:

1. I don't think there's a football fan alive who doesn't suspect that the Liverpool fans were as much to blame for the incident as the police, if not more so. The actions of Liverpool fans over the course of the last twenty years have certainly helped put their probable culpability under the spot-light. A proper testimonial, therefore, for the Hillsborough 96 could be the most intensely srutinised study ever of Reds fans when they come to ours for the CL QF. We (fans / the club / media / the police) should video their every move leading up to the start of the match to put together the mother of all dossiers as to whether 'the world's greatest fans' have learnt anything over the last 20 years. Furthermore, the police should operate a zero tolerance policy to any Red fan entering the SB area without a valid ticket, to any Red caught touting or trading, to any Red seen barging or pushing etc etc. Any arrested Scouser should then be named and shamed in the media. That would be a fitting tribute to 96 of the most senseless deaths in recent years.

2. I think that asking people to clap for a minute in remembrance is completely ridiculous. I share Loz's angst that fans can't be trusted to keep quiet for 60 seconds but the idea of clapping is to celebrate people's lives, not to mark a mass human tragedy. Would we bloody clap remembrance day, or clap to remember the holocaust or clap Lockerbie etc.? No, of course we wouldn't. If the FA are nervous about adverse fan reaction to remembering Hillsborough, take it off the agenda altogether, don't ask us to cheer a complete horror show.

[Barn]

Mike, spot on and very well put.

And bjd, no I don't really think it's a conspiracy - but I do think the FA will quite happily condem the fans that ruin their specticle.

[yorkleyblue]

Top post Mike -

[The Moos]

I've got to say that I find the idea of clapping for a minute in remembrance of a tragic event is absolutely awful.

"Now everyone, put your hands together for.....Hillsborough" B)

I mean, it's just f*cking wrong. It's like applauding at a funeral. You just don't do that.

If anything there should be a moment/minute of silence. If some people chose to disturb it then make the stewards throw the idiots out. I don't care what kind of supporters died in that incident, we should still be able to show some respect.

[BLUENUT]

Spot on Mike

[Lofty]

Well I guess that makes me a right c**t. Because the way I look at it, a minute's silence, or a minute's anything, does nothing to honour the dead, but goes a long way towards justifying the complete sh*te that's been emanating from Self-pity City for decades.

[Mike O]

Well I guess that makes me a right c**t. Because the way I look at it, a minute's silence, or a minute's anything, does nothing to honour the dead, but goes a long way towards justifying the complete sh*te that's been emanating from Self-pity City for decades.

As I said, the best way of 'honouring the dead' is to ensure that the football community as a whole does everything it can to see that it never happens again. For me, that starts with focussing on this generation of Liverpool fans who are, as far as most people are concerned, the worst perpetrators of the sort of activities which would prompt a re-occurence.

I stumbled across some news clips of Hillsborough today and still can't really watch more than a minute or two before I start crying. I don't think any of us should belittle the event at all in terms of the human tragedy. Hwever, I agree wholeheartedly that the FA's plans for remembering it are ill-thought through, and bearing in mind most of our views on current Reds fans, more provocative than compassionate.

[wicksy]

I wholeheartedly agree with both of your posts Mike.

[Zola's Love Child]

I've got to say that I find the idea of clapping for a minute in remembrance of a tragic event is absolutely awful.

"Now everyone, put your hands together for.....Hillsborough" B)

I mean, it's just f*cking wrong. It's like applauding at a funeral. You just don't do that.

If anything there should be a moment/minute of silence. If some people chose to disturb it then make the stewards throw the idiots out. I don't care what kind of supporters died in that incident, we should still be able to show some respect.

Too true. Would make for interesting remembrance services is people clapped every time respects were being paid. I just don't understand what is being applauded? Are the police running the crowd control being applauded? The Hillsborough stadium designers being applauded? The fans who got into the stadium without tickets? The people who got too pissed to conduct themselves safely?

A minutes silence, fine, its 20 years since it happened, and the numerous errors made on that day need not be forgotten. A minutes applause I just do not understand. I don't know any of the 96's lives, I don't know whether they did anything individually that is worth clapping for in their memory, but them dying certainly is not a reason to clap.