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Everything posted by Patch

  1. Exactly. We should all be treated as equal and our skin colour shouldn't matter. The people in here seem obsessed with peoples skin colour. It's disturbing. Just to add, the post you replied to said "a white bloke telling a black bloke what is and isn't racism doesn't sit well with me. No matter how much they keep saying that's what I'm saying, I haven't actually said this. All I said is I'm not going to find someone guilty of racism, or someone the victim of racism when there is zero evidence that is was racism. The victim thinking it was racism isn't enough. A perfectly sensible and reasonable position to take.
  2. It has everything to do with flagging! It's standard for police and prosecutors to use that definition to flag a case as racist, but that is all. They obviously won't try and prosecute for any racial crimes based on the victims word and no evidence. The fact the CPS might consider it a racist event doesn't actually mean anything. The fact is the victim legally can't decide if a case is racist. This is a fact. I follow the same standards as our legal system. My post was from the CPS Prosecution Guidelines. Posting a bit from a 20 year old newspaper article is so stupid. Also, I didn't actually make the claim that I decided if any abuse was racially motivated or not. So all that stuff you said at the end is irrelevant You're putting words into my mouth again. I said that someone claiming abuse was racist doesn't automatically make it racist. That's a very different thing to your lies you're making about what I'm saying. I'm saying there has to be evidence and not just accepting the word of the person involved, especially when that person involved doesn't know himself if it was racially motivated. Exactly same standard as our legal system.
  3. Yes, Boris, you are. In the same column, he railed against the Macpherson reforms, which were proposed in the wake of the murder of Stephen Lawrence. These reforms have since become the standard for prosecutors. They allow victims and third parties to define if something is racist. Johnson wasn't keen, saying it was "Orwellian stuff" from the "PC brigade"." A bit from an article in The Guardian from 2000. Really? That's the definition the CPS use to flag a case as racially motivate, but they can't prosecute someone for it and flagging a case doesn't mean it definitely is a racial event and the other person was racist. "Flagging is a subjective question. Flagging a case puts the CPS on notice that someone at some stage has perceived the incident that gave rise to the case had such an element of racial or religious hostility or prejudice to it. For a conviction to receive enhanced sentencing in court the police need to provide sufficient evidence to prove the hostility element, however this is not required for flagging purposes." So someone can claim an event is racially motivated, but that doesn't mean it was and I have to believe it.
  4. We are all aware that black people get stopped more than white people, and using the stats would have been a sensible argument that I would have agreed with. Instead all that was provided was a couple headlines (which didn't show anything) and anecdotal evidence about being searched once when he was 15 years old. It's not even a horrible story. He just got searched once when he was 15. Hardly a big deal. They were awful examples to use to prove racism and I'm not going to be told that I have to accept a certain event was racism without evidence because the person feels it was racism, or because of the colour of my skin making my opinion not matter (which is an outrageous thing to say!). There is a chance is was racial, and the police stop black people too often, but that doesn't prove that Bruto's case was racial, and I'm never going to jump to conclusions and say his case definitely was. People were jumping to conclusions over CHO arrest in here and I said everyone should wait and not jump to conclusions. I don't jump to conclusions with anything as I know better then to make my mind up without the full story. Maybe that comes from people jumping to conclusions with my situation. Now there is a problem a huge with the police stopping black people more than whites that needs to be dealt with, and there is systemic issue in the police. The evidence is clear on that and that needs to be dealt with. That's not a debate, but that also wasn't what was being debated.
  5. Neither can I. It seemed certain that Werner was going to liverpool. Massive for the club that we managed to get him!
  6. You've actually just proven my point. I don't think you have been reading what I've been saying either as you've backed up what I'm saying. I was very clearly told Bruto's case was racism and I had to believe it. That's what I take issue with. If you accept that not all wrongful arrests of black people aren't racially motivated, then you have to accept my view that Bruto's being searched doesn't have to be because he was black based on the information given. My whole point is you have to judge each case individually and not just assume that because a black person was searched it was a racist event like Valerie claimed. So thank you for backing up what I've been saying the whole time. The football season is starting up again. Let's get back to football.
  7. I actually think you guys are the ones trolling.
  8. That's a silly thing to say. Of course we can determine what does or does not constitute a racist act. We all know the definition of racism and can all know what a racist act is. Assuming you've told the full story, of course that was a racist act. Why would I say otherwise? I've never said their aren't police who are racist. I don't believe in generalising large groups of people tho. Our police try to de-escalate while in America we don't. I'm not saying our police are perfect, I've spent 8 months in prison and slept on the streets because of them and I suspect foul play, but it is nothing like American police. Racism isn't anywhere near as bad either. It's a different level over there.
  9. Yes I understand, and haven't said anything otherwise, but that doesn't mean his case was because of racism. His experience isn't even sad as he was only searched, doesn't actually prove anything or add anything to the discussion. No one is saying racism doesn't exist (how many times do I have to say this?), but that doesn't automatically mean Burto's case had anything to do with racism. You can't just decide every black man searched is because they are black. Burto's was silly to give that as an example of racism. 1, Being searched at 15 isn't anything major and happens all the time, 2 it doesn't prove, or even suggest racism. You seem to be trying to put words into my mouth and claim I'm saying things I'm not.
  10. I agree with you on America. We're far from perfect in this country, but we're so much better than America when it comes to racism and how the police behave.
  11. It will be interesting to see. I suspect you're right, but Werner can also play off the left. I suspect CHO will start of the bech with all the options we have, but as you said, will get lots of chances through the season to make an impact.
  12. Bruto's has no idea of the police intention that night. The police did something to him that has happened to me several times, but I'm being told I have to believe the police did it to him because he is black, despite there being nothing to suggest it, just because he thinks (doesn't actually know) that's why. That's ridiculous! I don't jump to conclusions without facts just because someone makes an allegation (which isn't actually based on anything other than what he thinks). It's a reasonable position to want some evidence that something happened because of racism instead of automatically believing it must be racism, and so accusing the people involved of being racist. The fact this position doesn't sit well with you says more about how you think than anything else. Do you believe everything that people say? Do you believe everything that people believe is true? Or do you look at the facts to decide?
  13. If he's considered good enough start, I'm sure he will. I'm not saying he will start, but I would be surprised if what's happened will have any impact on the decision.
  14. Yes. Good idea. I apologise for playing my part in ruining this thread.
  15. There's no anger from me. You're making things up again. You also clearly didn't read the posts. This is what I'm talking about people not being able to have a sensible discussion about racism. You're getting too emotional and can't debate anyone with a different opinion to yours without bringing my race into it (white anger 🤣) and being childish. I treat everyone the same no matter what the race. You're the one who changes his opinion based on what someone's race is. You're the one who says some races opinions matters less than others. People like you are part of the problem. Stop seeing people's race and judge each incident on it's own merit and each person the same, no matter what race they are. I deny a incident is racist when you and Bruto's have no idea if it was a racist incident. Something bad (not that it was even bad) happening to a black guy doesn't automatically make it racist. It's childish and an unintelligent way of thinking. Yes perception doesn't count. Just thinking something is racist doesn't mean it is. Intention and facts are what count, not how it is perceived. What if the police were just doing their jobs and following up on the information they had and there was no racist intent but Bruto's thought it was racism, would it still be a racist incident? Of course not.
  16. So talented and he has so much potential!
  17. You're not reading the posts. It's the second time you've done this. Please actually read the posts before replying. You would know the answer if you had bothered reading my post. It's happened several times to me and I was also told I fit the description. That's a common thing police say when investigating a crime. I've also wrongly been put in jail for a crime I didn't commit partly because of police mistakes, so it seems you're wrong that the chances of it happening to me again are minimal. I've had far more bad luck than Bruto's has with being treated badly by the police. I never said that what happened to me precludes racism in Bruto's experience. Where are you getting that idea from? I am saying you can't just automatically assume that it was racism when exactly the same thing also happens to white men. Description doesn't just mean skin colour! I never said it's impossible it happened because of race, but the fact it happened to a black man doesn't automatically mean it was racial. I'm not reasoning racism away. I just don't randomly accuse people of being racism without good reason. Being black or white doesn't make someones opinion more worthy. It's not how it's perceived that counts, it's the intention and the facts that count. Being white doesn't make my opinion any less.
  18. People in this thread where accusing that person of writing that article of being a racist and you just decided that the policemen who searched Brutos did it because of race. I certainly don't think you have discussed it in a sensible way. You've been very childish at times. (the bolded bit) You don't know that and you can't make that claim. You're just randomly deciding to believe it happened because of race and randomly accuse the policemen involved of being racists (something you just said no one has done). That's unacceptable. Has it occurred to you that police make mistakes or just follow up on information? Of that they were just doing their job? The same thing and worse happened to me several times and that's not racism. A lesser thing happens to Brutos and it is. If what happened to me had happened to Brutos, you both would claim that it was because black. There's no logic to what you're saying. Brutos didn't go through anything bad anyway. He was just searched, that's it. It's very dumb to just assume things without knowing the facts just because it happens often elsewhere.
  19. So you think it's acceptable to just randomly accuse someone of racism where there's nothing to suggest there was any racism? You can't just randomly decide people are racist. Can you see how that would rub me up the wrong way. Just because there is racism doesn't mean we have to accept every time someone calls racism and there's no proof at all. Let's go back to Brutos. He got searched as a kid, says it's racism and they did it because he's black. Why should I believe that to be the case when the same thing (and much worse) has happened to me? It wouldn't make any sense to. Just because he assumed it's because he is black doesn't make it true. Just because there is racism in this country doesn't mean everything bad that happens to a black person is due to racism, or we have to believe every case, or accuse people in specific cases without good reason. Again, I know there is racism, we don't need proof for that, but if you're going to accuse people of racism there better be a reason for it. People struggle to be able to talk about racism in a sensible way, as shown here.
  20. Neither of you are actually reading what people are posting. Not one person has said there isn't racism, and not one person has said black people have been searching for racism for 400 years. Please actually read and understand what's being said if you're going to reply. I'm a white guy I've had much worse than being searched done to me by the police. I've was stopped several times by police for matching the description when I was younger. I was also chucked in prison for a crime I didn't commit. It finally got thrown out of court. The police made several mistakes when recording evidence and didn't include evidence that supported my case. This only was found out the day of the trial. I lost my job and was made homeless because of it. Being searched isn't too bad in comparison. So I'm not sure what your story of being searched actually proves. Again, I repeat, I know racism happens.
  21. This is exactly what I'm saying. Racism needs to be dealt with, but It doesn't help at all for people to be looking for racism when it's not there, or at least there isn't any reasonable reason to think it's there
  22. Bit of a random reply. It's nothing to do with empathy or walking in others shoes, it's to do with accusing a writer of racism without any evidence. It's out of order.
  23. Being offended doesn't mean people are right in feeling that way. There's nothing in the example (with the two headlines) to suggest it has anything to do with race. So yes, if you look at that and see racism then it is your own fault. Being offended doesn't mean anything. People get offended over silly things all the time. I'm more interested in facts than peoples feelings. Facts are all that matters.
  24. I'm not debating it. At no point have I been debating what the media is like. There wasn't any need to post another example as I was debating the media as a whole, just how silly the example you gave was. Giving more examples doesn't change how silly of an example it was. Beckham was getting criticised by the press not living the lifestyle of a footballer as he started dating a pop star six to eight months after making his debut. His lifestyle was questioned very early on in his career. They were writing negative articles about him very early on. Giggs was very high profile when he broke through and there was a lot of talk in the papers about how much money he was earning. I actually think it was worse back then as the press and managers had the opinion that young players should wait until they earn big money. Anyway, let's not ruin this thread with non Hudson Odoi stuff. Anyone can PM if they want to continue discussing this.
  25. I have no interest in debating what the media is like. I was just pointing out that was a silly example and explained why. Care to explain what sweeping opinion that is?
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