Davey Baby

I don't know what all these midfield options are that people keep talking about. When Mereiles got subbed, we only had Mikel to replace him. Mikel was exactly what we didn't need in that situation but we had no choice, as Mereiles had run out of legs. Josh and Romeu will get games, injuries and tiredness will see to that, but while they're exciting prospects we only really have one central midfielder we can rely upon to perform at a consistently high level: Ramires. That doesn't sound like too many options to me. We were once very intimidating in this department. That's all gone. Hopefully Josh comes good, and I'm sure he will, but in the here and now we lack a physical presence in the middle, and that's partly why Lampard's struggling. I'm not denying he's behind the pace, and he hasn't been his best, but he operates better when he has strength and solidity alongside him, in the same way that Zola benefited hugely from having Mark Hughes, and I'm afraid Mikel doesn't fit the bill as he doesn't impose himself. It looks like we're going in another direction, in terms of style. We are becoming shorter and lighter, and that doesn't benefit Frank. He may not be at his best but even when he was, he had Maka or Essien, and they have made a massive difference to his career, and what a career it's been. I hope he still has something left in him to give us.

The first goal: Boswinga got penalised for a foul. My brother was screaming, "That was never a foul!". They scored and my brother went on and on (as he's prone to do). I said, "Don't worry they will replay it in a minute". It never got shown. Cast your mind back to Darren Fletcher's penalised offence against us at the Bridge two years ago, the resulting free-kick from which we scored. It transpires Fletcher might not have caught Ashley Cole after all. How do we know? They never stopped showing it. The penalty: Was it a penalty? It didn't look one to me. How will we know? It never got shown. Normally a penalised foul in the area gets shown from every angle, over and over, until the cows come home. This one got shown twice if I recall, and from one angle it looked very dodgy, so dodgy in fact that Dowd didn't book him, when it was clearly a goalscoring opportunity. As Dowd walked away, having given the kick, you could clearly see him listening to something in his ear. Assuming he was going to get a red card out, I'm pretty sure someone told him to keep his cards to himself. This warrants a discussion, surely, or at least an observation. If it's a pen then it's a red card. Perhaps it wasn't a pen after all and it warranted another look .. no, forget it. No time for that, too many cameras needed to show Hernandez hobbling off from every angle. So, they were given two offside goals and a dodgy pen, and yet it's Ashley Cole's tackle that makes all the headlines.

I felt Boswinga played well defensively, and he put in a couple of decent crosses. Sturridge is not the best at helping him out either, from a defensive point of view. Was Luiz on the bench? I felt Mikel was a wasted sub. If Mereiles had to come off, far better Luiz replaces him in such a scenario, as we were needing goals and he makes things happen.

Well, he missed one or two chances today, but great strikers miss chances, that's not really the problem. He played well. Very well. He took his goal brilliantly and there were signs (whisper it quietly) of the Torres of old. He did a couple of things, one in either half (the set up for Ramires and the run and shot that led to him blazing over the bar), where you thought, "Yeah, that's what we want to see." He was our best player, or one of, definitely. That miss. It is such a shame. Just when you thought he'd turned a corner, just when you saw the mental shackles come off, he does that, inexplicably. It could have happened to anyone, but it happened to him. The only saving grace is that it wasn't in front of the Kop, but it was in front of the Stretford End, and boy did they revel in it. It had a bearing on the result too, because that was the moment the game was up, and we deserved so much more. 3-2 and suddenly it's game on, and they become nervous. Imagine it goes to 3-2 and he gets a hatrick, making it even. That really is his Chelsea career well and truly underway .. All the focus will be on that miss. and it was a spectacular miss, but I hope he gets credit for the way he played. Definitely, by far, his best display in a Chelsea shirt, and I commend the manager for his handling of him. Will it set him back? Will it undo the progress made today? That is the worry, because if he keeps on playing like that we are quids in. It doesn't get any easier for him, unfortunately. Just when you thought the pressure might relent, that happens. Incredible. As I said, it could happen to anyone, but by the same token it just had to happen to him. He was going to get a lot of plaudits for today, instead, it is all about that. Even when playing well, he has applied more pressure on himself. He'll just have to cope with that. Overcome it. If he does and he suddenly starts firing on all cylinders, it will be that much sweeter. I'm not sure how it's going to play out, but I am more encouraged by today than I have been since he joined us, despite what happened. He played well first-half, without ever truly convincing, then he scored, such a sweet goal. Even the shot he blazed over the bar, he took it with confidence, unlike his chances in the first-half. If he converts the sitter he's suddenly a different player in front of goal. He's no longer shinning them, miscontrolling them, taking too many touches, scuffing them. The old confidence is back and he's suddenly finding the ball falls to him. Now, he may start thinking again, and that would be costly. He needs belief, it is such a precious commodity. Physical problems stripped him of that in my opinion, and he needs to believe he's the player he once was. Belief that only comes from tormenting defences, putting them to the sword, and converting chances. He needs to feel he's no mortal, that he's operating on a higher plane. Today's miss won't help but the signs were there that he can get back there. It may be an illusion, I don't know, we shall see. Well done Fernando. A very competent performance.

My apologies to Anelka, he scored against West Brom of course, or was that taken away from him?

No, I think everyone remembers.

He absolves himself of responsibility. I have always found that with him. Fine if everything's going your way, but in these games, as you say, where the heat is on, he can hide. Last season at OT in the CL tie, he switched off, allowing their man to get in a cross, leading to them taking the lead. It was criminal, particularly for such an experienced player, someone who should be setting an example. He has never been a leader and never will be, which is fair enough, but mentally he is weak in my opinion, meaning when the pressure's on he seldom performs. The fact that he blamed Grant for his missed penalty in Moscow said it all. Not my kind of player but he's done surprisingly well, helping us win the double, so not the disastrous signing I thought it would be. He'll see out his contract this term and then be off. He was never going to go this summer, even if AVB wanted him replaced, which I'm sure he did. He has taken his chances this term without scoring, but if he starts on Sunday, I won't be expecting anything other than the usual, which in these games means Sweet Fanny Adams.

If you're called Greg from Canada, they certainly have.

I can't imagine Torres will start, for the simple reason he played the full 90 against Bayer. That should be an indicator of AVB's feelings. Fergie rested a few in Portugal and AVB will be aware of that. Torres run himself into the ground. I hope he starts but it seems to me AVB is plumping for Anelka, unless he's thinking of Danny up front and Mata and Malouda on the flanks, but I doubt it. Has Anelka ever performed in big games against big clubs? Ever? In his whole career? I'm sure he has but I will need reminding. I will not be happy if he starts on Sunday but I'll defer to AVB's better judgement. He may be the guy to finally unlock the door. Ramires and Lamps are definites, without Ramires we would have absolutely no chance in this game, not if we're relying on our other midfielders. Mereiles has looked good. Again, he came off on Tuesday. I suspect that means he gets the nod, which would meet with my approval, simply because I'm still having nightmares about Mikel's last performance at Old Trafford. I suspect Luiz will miss out, simply because Bos has been playing so well, unless AVB decrees he can't trust him for this one, which I would find unfair, given he should only go on what he's seen. I can't imagine for one second he will drop Bos, that would smack of bad management. As for Utd, well their stronger than us in forward positions, that's for sure. Rooney, Hernandez, Young, Nani. These are the guys that will hurt you. They're not so strong in midfield and Fergie invariably puts his runners in against us, players like Park and Fletcher, one of whom may play. Anderson is playing well and he's a definite starter, possibly to be partnered by Carrick, thus indicating their lack of strength in this department. Carrick is an underwhelming player. We should match them in midfield. We have a good defence that will be tested. Our approach should be to attack them. They are suspect in defence and have a dodgy keeper. Smalling and Evra are susceptible, definitely, Jones is good but inexperienced, and Rio's old bones are creaking, assuming he even makes it, which he might not. If they're forced to play Jonny Evans hell yeah. As for AVB, well, the biggest game in his short career, in terms of number of people watching, in terms of the quality of the teams on display, in terms of the size of the stadium and in terms of scrutiny. It's a big game, and all this will be new to him, we should remember that. Fergie is trying to sweet-talk him, being awfully nice about him in public, but it's a ploy, one he should ensure he doesn't fall for. We need to be aggressive and we need to be determined. We need to be ruthless, that's why Fergie's making all these nice noises in the press. He loves us when he's winning hates us when he's losing. Let's hope he's giving AVB the brush off after the game.

No offence taken, but thanks all the same.

Fair enough mate, decent shout. You've almost got me believing. Let's hope we agree on Sunday. If we lose and he plays badly I dare say this thread will see a bit of life, similarly if he bangs in the winner. Will be interesting ..

I disagree. The apologists keep coming up with the same old excuses, namely service. You can dress it up as creativity, between the lines, playing at a faster pace, the fact that Torres needs the ball played in front of him, but it all boils down to service, and that's pinning the blame on his teammates, whereas the reason (in my view) he's playing badly is because of him. There are very few strikers who would have scored as few as him. Very few. Long isn't getting any better service at West Brom. Now, just because I disagree with you on Tuesday's performance, doesn't mean I'm not basing my opinion on what I see and with the free exercise of my own judgement, as you put it. It just means I disagree with you. You are wrong when you say I don't change my opinion. I gave him man of the match against Stoke. I wish he would play like that more often, as it is that's the best game he's had in a Chelsea shirt. You are also wrong when you suggest some of us wish him ill. I can't think of a single Chelsea fan who feels like that. We gave the scousers £50m, at the moment it's the most embarrassing transfer in history, of course we want him to succeed. I can't see it happening but I would love to be proved wrong, starting on Sunday. Funnily enough I feel the same about your standpoint. Rather than blame his woes on service, which I believe offers no insight at all, I put it down to the physical and mental state of the player, as I've already alluded to. You see, due to no fault of his own Torres has lost his physical edge, and when that happens a player can lose his mental edge too. They're inextricably linked, the mind and the body. You will notice with footballers, for instance, that when their legs go their concentration suffers. I know this from playing the game myself. With Torres, he doesn't have the physical attributes he once had and that has affected him mentally, that's my opinion. A lot of the game is played in the mind. At the top level the mind is very important, it can make the difference, because in terms of ability and fitness, there's not much to choose between the top players (apart from, say, a Messi). You have to really believe in yourself, and if your body goes, often that belief goes missing, particularly for strikers who rely on that first five yards, and you only have to lose a smidgen of belief for it to affect your game. That's what I think is the problem. It really is f**k all to do with service. Wlll he score goals because of Mata? Yes. Would Kevin Phillips? Yes. Kevin Phillips is 40 years old. Kevin Phillips scores goals regardless. All strikers benefit from having better players around them so I don't really take that point. We could play Anelka up front and he'd get more, that doesn't mean I want to see him as our first choice striker. I want us to be challenging for the main prizes. As it is, I think we'll be relying upon Drogba. I think we'd all feel happier if he were fit for Sunday. I think I'm right in saying I said that might give him the mental boost to bounce back. I thought he was woeful in the first-half and not much better in the second, and I wasn't alone in that view, neither on this forum nor with the people sitting around me at the game, most of whom had their head in their hands every time the ball bounced off him. I commended AVB for keeping faith in him as it ultimately proved the right decision. AVB is very important here for AVB can get inside his head. That's the manager's job, to put his players in the right state of mind. While Torres may never return to the player he once was physically (the reason I think we were so stupid to sign him), it's possible he can help him on a mental level and help him return to being a force. As I've said, I haven't given up hope. Every time I watch Torres I do so hoping he will explode into life. The manager has really got his work cut out in my opinion. I firmly believe AVB wishes Torres weren't here, as his presence prevents us from signing a top-class forward (this is where the fee becomes relevant), and it's going to be very hard to let him go. The reason I say we were so stupid to sign him is because Torres had given no indication he was back to his best physically, and until a player does so it's just plain daft to splash out £50m. Incidentally, Torres was the best striker on the planet at one time in my view. He was brave, tough, fast, graceful, his movement was exquisite and his finishing, well we were on the receiving end of it a few times so we all know about that. A lot of this game is played in the head, and until he starts to believe in himself, and let go of his hang-ups, the attributes among those which are still open to him won't come back. I have seen many great players over the years and I have never seen one that has struggled to the degree Torres is doing now. Great players lose form, of course, but this is deeper than that. This is a player who has seemingly lost it, who is suffering a mental block. I just think his limitations are being exposed, cruelly, and once a player realises they're mortal it's very hard to get them being Superman again. As I've said, those of you expecting him to be the player of old will be severely dissapointed, and it gives me no pleasure saying that. Yes he will score goals. Of course he will score goals. Shevchenko scores goals and so does Kevin Phillips. Will he be the striker we all want him to be? Not going to happen. And I think most Chelsea fans are coming round to that. My biggest hope is that Roman learns his lesson, for we don't want him making the same mistake again.

Gullit, if I've taken things from you, it was far from personal, I have no recollection of who said what. Your post however is bordering on personal, so I shall ensure I don't make that mistake again.

i just amalgamated as many excuses as I've read on this thread, not directed at anyone in particular. I've read about service, creativity, between the lines. I've read about Lampard and I've read about Malouda. And prior to this season I've read about him not having a proper rest. All of which I believe is baloney. I just don't think he's any good. Now if you've made all those excuses in the past, I apologise, for I can see how you might think it was personal, but it wasn't, it's just a general observation on all the apologists, who are awfully touchy on the subject of Torres but invite the criticism by persisting with the same old hackneyed lines. For every post that mentions service there'll be another saying that's a load of cobblers, and if you don't like it, you don't have to read it, so the notion that we should close this thread is absurd. Besides, if Chelsea fans can't handle reading other Chelsea fans' posts on the subject, that would probably be the biggest indictment of the player. Next thing you know he'll be known as the "t word". Personally, I haven't given up hope, i just didn't have very much to start with, although I didn't expect him to be this bad. I hope he starts on Sunday, as I've said on the matchday thread, simply because I don't rate Anelka in big games, and a goal at Old Trafford might just give him the confidence boost he needs. We can but dream ..

Four camps: Camp One believe Torres is playing well and the fact he isn't scoring is everyone else's fault (namely Malouda and Lampard). These people mention the words "between the lines" a lot. Camp Two believe there is room for improvement but he's not as bad as people say (and he's certainly not being helped by Malouda and Lampard, two players who just can't kick the ball in a straight line). Camp Three believe he is as bad as people say but he will come good (one just needs to go in off his backside). These people are still waiting for one to go in off Chris Sutton's backside but that's another story. Camp One disagree with Camp Three. They say one "can't" go in off his backside. They say Torres "faces the goal". They say that's the reason Malouda and Lampard don't "get" him. They then go on to say the words "between the lines" a lot. Camp Four are the ones saying he's lost it (we've bought a dud or a crock or both). They saw him get injured, they saw him return early, they saw him lose confidence in himself physically, they saw that suddenly preying on his mind, to the point where he believes he is no longer the greatest striker on earth and he has lost that invincibility. They've seen this happen to other players too (namely other strikers Chelsea have broke the bank for). The best people in this camp hope for is that he becomes average and we can offload him to that Russian club who have suddenly become flush with cash. £650m for Torres, we got out and buy someone who can trap a ball, and someone, more importantly, who can cope with pressure. Which camp are you? Personally, I thought Torres had ceased to be a world-class player long before we signed him, and I haven't seen anything from him in a Chelsea shirt to make me change my mind, though I hope I'm wrong. I haven't seen many players in a Chelsea shirt as bad as him, and if he were called Kalou, he'd be coming in for a lot more flak (even though Kalou produces a lot more, sh*t player that he is). I think he will score goals*, but I think he will never return to the player of old, I think it was an unbelievably stupid signing, one that prevents us from signing a top-class forward.** And before people berate the press for focusing on his every move, we shattered the British transfer record on a striker who can't score goals. That makes for pretty good copy. * Shevchenko*** scored goals, just not as many as he should, and not as many as countless others would, including Darren Bent. ** And no, I'm not interested in how many shirts we sell in Thailand. *** If Torres becomes half as good as Sheva, I think many of us will be very relieved.**** **** Thank you very much.

Those extended highlights (almost the whole game) are taken from the live transmission I spoke of. Beyond that there was no coverage of the incident, none that I know of anyway. Edit: Going to back to the studio discussion on Tuesday night .. They called Luiz unbelievably talented but a bit rash sometimes defensively .. Hardly controversial! His goal got all the praise it was due.

Fair comment. It wasn't the best of attempts though was it? (Genuine question, I was at the game and haven't seen any highlights on television). Ballack nearly scored due to a slack pass from Mikel and the fact Sturridge was running away from it. Even as it became apparent the pass wasn't going to reach him, he still kept on running, and this encapsulated his second-half performance for me. Very slack defensively. Kept losing possession and (as you say) kept failing to track his player, due to poor concentration. I could plainly see AVB becoming exasperated by him. He wasn't digging him out, but he kept having to cajole him into staying focused. Anelka had a good goal disallowed, set up Mata for a glorious chance, and did well, even though I'm not his biggest fan. Meanwhile the ineffective Torres went on to get two assists. I think we can both agree AVB got it right.

Well, I sat down and watched the post-match discussion last night, having recorded it, and there was nothing wrong with it. Wilkins, Sounness, Holddle and Stelling in the studio. No anti-Chelsea agenda there. If you look at the sky long enough, searching for UFOs, you will see one. This is a scientifically proven fact. Sometimes you just have to look at the sky, objectively, and you may find there aren't any UFOs there after all. Wilkins was enormously complimentary towards Terry and Lampard, our two stalwarts who were left out. He called them leaders, model professionals, he said they calm everything down on the pitch. Holddle kept banging on about Torres' movement, saying it was the best in the world, which is absolute nonsense in my view but never mind. Sounness, who I expected to be a little bit prickly, given AVB was very unflattering toards him, was full of compliments towards AVB, saying he was bright and able and looks comfortable in the job. After the interview with AVB, Wilkins said, "I wish I could speak English like that." There was absolutely nothing to complain about here. Indeed, they showed a montage of AVB gesticulating on the touchline, of which Stelling said, "I bet the Chelsea fans will love that." And you know that? He's right. I love it. If you want to complain, I suggest you get on the BBC website. The BBC is a public service broadcaster, funded by our license fees. Mata was stamped on by Bardsley. The live transmission showed the incident again and again, so whoever was compiling the highlights for MOTD could not have been unaware of it, yet they failed to even show it let alone analyse it. It was a blatent stamp, one that has brought Bardsley a four game ban, a ban he hasn't even appealed. It was the biggest talking point of the day, or one of, and it was omitted, quite outrageously. SKY aren't honour-bound to behave impartially but the BBC are. You can register your complaint via their website and in all likelihood you will get a response. We all know that if that stamp had been perpetrated on a Utd or Liverpool player (or Joey Barton) we would never have heard the end of it. And we all know that if it had been committed by a Chelsea player, well, SKY would have shown the incident on the hour every hour as the OP said.

Spiller, Sturridge was brought off because he was becoming a liability, and AVB could be seen on the touchline imploring him to retain his concentration. It's important to remember he's still young, especially in terms of his development, because he just hasn't played that many games, and a big game like this, in which the adrenaline is pumping, is going to take its toll on the guy physically, and that's what happened. There was a marked dip in his performance from the first-half, in which he played well and confidently. Playing for Chelsea, at home, in a CL game, is a big deal for the lad, and that excitement can inspire you to great things, but it can also cause you to shoot your bolt a little bit early (so to speak), and it was noticeable to me that his mind wandered at the same time as his legs caved in. No sooner did Anelka come on than we had a much stronger presence on the right flank. In terms of Old Trafford, it will be interesting to see who AVB plays. I would start with Sturridge, but I doubt very much he'll play the whole game. He is still vastly inexperienced and lacks a little knowhow at the top level. Thank god we've got him though, because he gives us something we are otherwise lacking.

Cech in goal. It was a close call but I plumped for Cech. Call me mad. A back four of Bos, Ivan, Terry, Ash. Good managers pick players on merit. Boswinga has done nothing to deserve to be dropped. Ramires first name on the teamsheet for me. After JT. Which makes him second name on the teamsheet. Lamps will play. Obviously. Who will hold? That's the three trillion and sixty four thousand pound question. Mereiles or Mikel? Will be interesting. Mata picks himself. It's written in his contract. Sturridge and Drogba. If Drogba's not fit, Torres. No way Anelka. Anelka has never performed in a big game in his life. And he's sh*t at penalties. And I have a long memory. If Torres plays it will be painful, but then there's a one in a thousand chance he might score and then it's all systems go. Luiz on the bench. Sorry about that folks.

Some very strange choices here. Mata was head and shoulders the best player on the pitch, and he didn't even play that well. Sturridge looked good but was careless in possession in defensive positions. Mikel is by far the worst header of a ball I have ever seen. Seeing as Ramires and Terry weren't playing, I'll give it to Cech. Captain for the first time. Well done.

Anything less than double figures will be embarrassing, which means he will have to improve his current ratio by about 642%. I'm going for 5 more than Rooney has notched up after 4 games .. 13. The same number Malouda got last season.

At least they were referring to Ballack as a success at Chelsea. There are two ways of looking at it. I don't see any problems here. Again, no problems here. It appeared to me (at the game) Mereiles got a touch, and either way, he was offside and interfering with play. We were the better team in the first half, but it was a pretty underwhelming performance. Their manager was bound to be happier than AVB at half-time. I think that's a pretty fair comment by Sounness. Torres was good. Whether he still is is a moot point. I'm sure if he starts banging them in Sounness will change his stance. The only part of your post I agree with. Definite bias here. Virtually accused him of gambling with his team selection? That could easily be seen as a compliment. He did gamble and it paid off. When I saw the teamsheet I was concerned we might be underestimating them, and a loss would have caused us problems. No Terry (the first name on the teamsheet for me) and a midfield consisting of Mikel, Malouda and Mereiles. I don't think the interviewer was out of order.

Thanks for that. As I wrote initially, this was all based on the assumption he said those things which he may not have done. Equally, that article may not be right. I hope it is.

I don't think he should be commenting on an old and slow midfield, regardless of the merits of his argument. I don't think AVB thinks he should be either. He has come out and said he has spoken to Torres, he has put it to bed, and he hopes it won't happen again, because the group is all-important. I'm saying he shouldn't have said it. I'm saying spirit is all important (without it, the pace and creativity he longs for will mean nothing). I'm saying his words could potentially put a few noses out of joint, namely Malouda, Mikel, Lampard, all three of whom could be described as either old or slow midfielders (you're right about Ramires). Torres put that in the public domain, unnecessarily, that's what I'm saying. Regarding last night .. Torres worked hard. He covered a lot of ground. I don't know if that was evident on tv. He was knackered by the end. He was woeful first half. AVB persevered with him in an important game and he got that right. Torres wasn't much better in the second-half but he got the assists and hopefully that will give him some confidence to take into his next game. Edit: Whether that will be at Old Trafford we shall see ..