won the world cup with their defensive football and helped by blatant dive against aussies in second round...would have been out of euro 2008 if mutu had scored pen, had luck against france with ribery stretchered off, pen and red card...even with a man advantage they sat back and france dominated until italy got a lucky deflection from a free kick...just don't think italy are that good, but like the germans (apart from world cup 02) they always got the rub of the green...we're crap, but we could go just as far with their kind of fortune

won the world cup with their defensive football and helped by blatant dive against aussies in second round...would have been out of euro 2008 if mutu had scored pen, had luck against france with ribery stretchered off, pen and red card...even with a man advantage they sat back and france dominated until italy got a lucky deflection from a free kick...just don't think italy are that good, but like the germans (apart from world cup 02) they always got the rub of the green...we're crap, but we could go just as far with their kind of fortune

I don't like Italy, but I respect them. Their players are all immensely proud to play for the national side, and they really care about their performances. I just don't think England players have as much passion as a group (though they are much better than, say, the Spanish). This makes the difference when you have situations like the Mutu penalty, Lucas Neill's tackle, or the shoot-out at the last world cup. In other words I think they make their good fortune, whereas England have an ingrained pessimism.

If Rooney actually showed up and played like he does for united and it just seems like each player plays individually and not together as a team collectively.

looking at italy's first two games, I'd say they were a little unlucky, and in the third, the pen and red card were both clear and deserved.

and we've profited from diving before too, don't forget.

I think the first thing England want to think about is getting to the stage where Italy received their 'luck' - I think Italy had a marginally tougher qualifying group than England and they didn't fail to qualify. IN the group they may have failed to play at anything like the standard they would like to have played (or maybe be expected to haver played) but I still think they were the second best team in the group and therefore deserved to go through.

I don't think France dominated with 10 men - I thought France were diabolical with 10 and 11 men. France offered very little if up front and Italy were comfortable allowing them to come at them and hit them on the break (which would have paid off if they hadn't picked Ade Akinbiyi up front).

Don't get me wrong I haven't been all that impressed by Italy but the suggestion that the only difference bewtween England and Italy in this tournament and the last is luck is, for me, well wide of the mark. Italy are still one of the top 4 or 5 European footballing countries. I think we are struggling to claim top 10 status at the moment.

I think the first thing England want to think about is getting to the stage where Italy received their 'luck' - I think Italy had a marginally tougher qualifying group than England and they didn't fail to qualify. IN the group they may have failed to play at anything like the standard they would like to have played (or maybe be expected to haver played) but I still think they were the second best team in the group and therefore deserved to go through.

I don't think France dominated with 10 men - I thought France were diabolical with 10 and 11 men. France offered very little if up front and Italy were comfortable allowing them to come at them and hit them on the break (which would have paid off if they hadn't picked Ade Akinbiyi up front).

Don't get me wrong I haven't been all that impressed by Italy but the suggestion that the only difference bewtween England and Italy in this tournament and the last is luck is, for me, well wide of the mark. Italy are still one of the top 4 or 5 European footballing countries. I think we are struggling to claim top 10 status at the moment.

loz,

you were obviously watching a different game at the start of the second half cos france were dominating, so much so the commentators were criticising Italy for their negative tactics...

i know england are sh*te, but how many times have we seen average Italy and Germany sides go all the way...I know the cliche about you make your own luck in this game and I know we didn't deserve to qualify let alone win this tournament...I'm just suggesting that the line between success and failure can be pretty narrow despite a team's deficiencies...I wouldn't be surprised if Italy or germany win this year even though they are nowhere near being the best sides

Thing is, if Toni had bagged half the chances that came his way then Italy would have been out of sight by half time.

I think there is a difference between having the bulk of possession and dominating. I think France had a lot more possession but I don't think they dominated because they were doing bugger all with the possession they had.

The fact that Italy and Germany have been successful whilst not looking that great on so many occasions suggests to me that it isn't really down to luck. If it was a one off you might say it was luck, what Italy and Germany don't do all that regularly that England do too frequently is concede bad goals. OK there will always be times where they have a mare and getting a few put past them but overall you have to work a lot harder to score against Italy and Germany than you do against England.

And when Italy really really need a result you always fancy them to pull it off, with England you expect the opposite. Maybe it is a mentality more than anything, but I don't think it is luck.

I think Italy had a marginally tougher qualifying group than England and they didn't fail to qualify. IN the group they may have failed to play at anything like the standard they would like to have played (or maybe be expected to haver played) but I still think they were the second best team in the group and therefore deserved to go through.

Do you still consider that to be the case? Not making a major issue out of it because if England were good enough they would have got through, but our group was the only one to provide two quarter finalists at euro 2008...one team has now gone to the semi's and the other should have done but for misfortune against Turkey...not excusing our failure at all, but it doesn't seem quite as horrendous as it did at the time...i mean croatia made mugs of germany; russia - sweden and Holland

Edited June 22, 200818 yr by The Brit

Granted the tournament has done my argument no favours!! I will slip away quietly whilst whistling to myself!!