RedRobMol

exactly what i thought as i was reading it. bullsh*t if ever it could be spotted, but never a surprise from that rag.

so the initial answer of no answers the question then, is that it?

out of interest, what does bfs stand for?

it often doesnt matter what the player wants. You have shown from your activities so far that you are obviously looking to do something about the farce of 'self sutaining and profitable by 2010' by buying on the cheap so if serious money will have to be splashed on Malouda and Madrid are interested in Robben, i would have thought it makes sense. I hope he does go because my personal opinion is that he is a blight on the premiership. See Elliott - thats the price you pay for going 'On a slightly more serious note'!! Bonetti, I wont bother again. take out the blight bit and the word farce then, and i think its a fair and debatable point. do you not think it is a sensible outcome and one that is likely to recoup what would be a good fee from robben given his injury record and lack of real impact in the last couple of years?

it often doesnt matter what the player wants. You have shown from your activities so far that you are obviously looking to do something about the farce of 'self sutaining and profitable by 2010' by buying on the cheap so if serious money will have to be splashed on Malouda and Madrid are interested in Robben, i would have thought it makes sense. I hope he does go because my personal opinion is that he is a blight on the premiership.

if thats definitive, then yes. Cheers.

Nothing really more to add than the question in the title.

is he uneducated or ill-educated though?

Umm...I think the word you're looking for is 'uneducated', Rob. Or maybe, illiterate... And, I'm not 100% sure here, but the above may just qualify you for an official award on the CSR Loz-ironic-a-metre! I have a few of the statuettes myself. Very nice paperweights they make! PS: here are some pictures of the statuettes you might be lucky enough to win: BEST IRONIC STATEMENT http://www.publications.parliament.co.uk":1ubx6mqo+--> ("Lord Hansards Column on http://www.publications.parliament.co.uk":1ubx6mqo) 25 Mar 1998 : Column 1266Surely economising on education and training displays a mystifyingly disastrous sense of priorities. Here we have 65,000 inmates disproportionately male; disproportionately young; disproportionately from unhappy family backgrounds; and--disproportionately ill-educated--as well as being disproportionately prone to inflict misery, damage and fear upon the communities from which they come and to which they will return. That is 65,000 people who, before imprisonment, tied up huge resources in police manpower, domestic security devices and closed circuit surveillance in our streets and businesses. They include the people who make pensioners on housing estates too terrified to emerge from their homes; who menace tourists in the streets, and who push drugs at school gates. Yet, instead of recalling the apparent optimism of yesteryear when prisons were called "houses of correction", recalling indeed the current publicly proclaimed mission of the Prison Service to help inmates lead law-abiding lives after release, we grossly neglect the areas most obviously directed to achieving that objective--education and training. I will accept a written apology, of course. BEST SUPPORTING IRONIC STATEMENT

i reckon if its a true trophy count it will end up quite even (obviously my optimism that we can win the league some time soon is involved in that statement) but it must be pretty close at the moment. Gerrard: 2001 FA cup, 2001 C Cup, 2001 Uefa Cup, 2003 C Cup, 2005 Champions League, 2006 FA Cup. 2002 Super Cup, 2006 Super Cup. Thats 8 for Gerrard so far. Whats lampards, 10 maybe?

hearts and minds.

I think Bent, and the Ferdinands are perfect examples of what i consider overrated. Nowhere near the talent their reputations would betray. As for Gerrard in player of the year, i can see your point. He wasnt our best player last season but the nominations are made mostly by idiots, be they the sicophantic (sp?) media or the mostly ill educated players themselves. For me player of the year was between two players, Drogba and Ronaldo, and the right one won.

it was, as i say, me trying to end my participation and the debate with lofty specifically. The thing that you should realise is that I am an outsider here and that most of my debates quickly become arguments. Take for example Lofty saying "dont know when you're beat". Beat at what? it is a discussion with opinions, not a contest, but it becomes a contest, particularly with lofty, because of his feelings towards my club, and because of my stubbornness. I wish we could all just get along, and i wish even more that i was wittier, but its not the way it is, so apologies again if it grates on you. anyway, to lighten the mood here is a joke... One night, a man rolls over in bed and gives his wife a big, knowing grin. Immediately realising his intentions she says, "Not tonight darling. I have an appointment with the gynaecologist tomorrow morning and I want to stay fresh and clean." Dejected and disappointed, the man rolls over and tries to get to sleep. A few minutes later he rolls over and prods his wife again. "Tell me, do you have a dentist appointment tomorrow, too?"

neither wit nor humour are my strong points, i am aware of that. at least i could never be considered overrated. I dont mean to dictate, i just wont change my opinions easily, thats all. also, i dont try and end a discussion, i merely try to end my participation in it, as it often become quite circular. Sorry Midland_blue.

Yes of course it's a side issue, but you asked so I answered. Ok? Where the "who have i banned" came from I have no idea. You didn't say you wouldn't accept the stats? Oh yes you did sunshine: As you are aware, the original topic will very often develop into something else, and this one has now, largely to your involvement, become a Lampard v Gerrard debate. Where we do agree is that you're not going to change your opionion, and neither am I. As you yourself say, your opinion on Frank Lampard is based more on impression than stats/facts/observation. So to get back towards the original subject of this thread, why is Gerrard overrated? Because it's so seldom that anyone in the media critisises any part of his game. Ok? Or are you seriously going to tell me that your precious St Steven is The Perfect Player who never puts a foot wrong. I wouldn't be surprised if you did. Because time and again, I've seen him put in an average performance for England and whichever channel you watch, the commentators will have you believe that he can do no wrong. And that, is as near as dammit, the very definition of over-rated. Similarly, you can apply the exact same argument in reverse to Frank Lampard. More so when playing for Chelsea than for England, admittedly, but then his performances for Chelsea are what concern me most, just as St Steven's performances for England concern me far more than what he does for your lot. Incidentally, I've checked out your similarly titled topic at the Liverpool Way Isn't it interesting that your fellow fans can't decide whether Frank Lampard is the most overrated or most underrated player? Take this quote, for instance: And that, is from a Liverpool fan. And here's another one: For once I'll let a Scouser (or even two) speak for me. i'll let this be my last comment on this topic. Hopefully. thats where the "who have i banned" came from mate. Re-read your post as quoted, it has f**k all to do with me. I set up the debate on the liverpool way because i was interested to see the opinion. I knew there would be people who would throw up lampard and i also knew there would be people to defend him. I stayed out of it so as not to influence and keep it strictly scientific test case. I dont see what letting those scousers speak for you does though, as i havent at any point criticised Lampards attacking qualities, I have merely said that i think Gerrard a better all round player. I do rate Lampard. I dont like him and i think he has flaws but he deserves credit for the bits of his game that are top class, mainly his goals. right then, so next up: that is me not accepting what you say the stats prove, not me not accepting the stats. (does that make sense?) That is the problem with statistics. You can choose what meaning to take from them. All it means is that Lampard has scored more goals than Gerrard. It has no reflection on ability or technique or any other aspects of their game than scoring goals. Get it this time sunshine? so i think i can end this now with a finally. Finally, your definition of overrated is that the player doesnt get criticised by the media, i cannot attribute the same meaning to the word overrated. For me it is important to remember that the written press are idiots in the main and many of the pundits are similar. My idea of overrated is wholly different. It is a player that the is considered by the majority to be much better than in reality they actually are. much more simple. Good examples would, be in my opinion, Ibrahimovic, Raul, Del Piero (both a couple of years ago), Carrick, Berbatov recently, these are players who are overrated. agree to disagree is the only way forward i suppose.

reply to lofty - No1. I am aware of the thread and you not getting onto those sites, but it has nothing to do with me and no relevance whatsoever to this debate. That was what i was trying to get at. reply to lofty - No2. I didnt say i wouldnt accept stats, i said i wouldnt accept that the number of goals he has scored make him a better player than Gerrard. I dont want to 'take his goals away from him' as it is clearly a massive part of his game but i think it overshadows his weaknesses. that is all. I think he is sh*t at defending and whenever i see him play i am not impressed particularly with his passing abilities, aside from (as i said) when he has time and space to pick the passes. I dont think he can dominate a game in the way that gerrard or Essien can (or vieira could) for instance and i think these are reasonable flaws to his 'all round game'. I have also never claimed that he isnt a good player, but i am not going to change my opinion that i beleive Gerrard to be better just because you disagree. Opinions aqre formed on all sorts of things. You lot will see a lot more of Frank than i do (mostly because he generally hides when we play against you) and I will see plenty more of Gerrard than you will (the same bracketed sentence could apply i suppose) so i will always have a different opinion to you. Stats are stats and personally i cant be doing with them as they are always subjective rely on the ability of the other players around them to contribute. Reply to Tim: I dont think i have put forward anything other than my opinion, but that opinion is not plucked from fresh air. I know how good he is at all of the things i have highlighted and you havent argued against them so far. I have not seen anyone better (in his position) at any of those things. I have seen many as good at some of them, but not all of them, that is what i have SEEN. I dont want or need to back it up with stats as it is opinion based on my own judgement with my own eyes and i beleive that my judgement is fair. As for stats suggesting he has had an average season, I thought i had allowed for this when i said that we have not scored the amount of goals that would allow for him to have better assist stats and that he doesnt take every set piece and that we are not great at converting set pieces. Not necessariliy the fault of Gerrard. I do know that Gerrard is as good a passer as anyone, although in a team that is not collectively as good as you (we finished behind you so that is fair if annoying) he has to try and do more himself and so pass completion will be lower, plus he doesnt take the easy option as often as Lampard seems to with his passing. You might argue that keeping possession is a good quality which it is, but i would always want gerrard to try that little bit extra than take the safe option because i know what he can create by doing it. If the rest of the team were all as capable of creating these things then i would be more willing to accept the easy option from him. your point about Rafa playing him with a defensive midfielder because he doesnt rate his defensive ability is nonsensical to me, dare I say laughable. He tries to get the most from Gerrard and the most from the team. It seems a modern need to play with a man sat in front of the defence doing nothing but defending but until the arrival of Mascherano and since the departure of Hamann, we did not have this. Alonso sits deeper than Gerrard in nature but he is not a defensive midfielder, nor is Sissoko. Sissoko is everywhere and although his defensive destructive attributes allow the other midfielders to concentrate more on their attacking duties it does not negate those duties entirely. If you watch Liverpool play, at any time when gerrard is not used in a supporting role for the striker, he does plenty of defensive work and i have no doubts that it is demanded and expected of him to do so. so to sum it up, I couldnt care less if you beleive Steven Gerrard to be the 'bees-knees', i just wanted to point out that your beleif that he is the most overrated player in the world is ridiculous. and breath...

So your definition of an objective argument entails allowing Scousers to have their say on a Chelsea forum but banning Chelsea fans from Liverpool forums before they've made a single post? who have i banned and when was this Lofty? I have seen your collective answers on here and thought, as most of you seem to be picking liverpool players i thought it would be interesting to see if liverpool fans do similarly, and many have said Frank Lampard by the way, but the majority are making more sensible (my opinion only) nominations. As for 'the stats' proving Lampard is a better all round player than Gerrard, i'm not going to accept that. Lampard scores lots of goals, but having said that he is probably the greediest central midfield player i have ever seen. He is weak in the tackle (when he isnt sh*tting out of them anyway) is terrible positionally when it comes to defensive duties, and personally he appears a bit like carrick to me with his passing. If he has time and space, and the man he is passing to has time and space, then he can ping a ball, put him under pressure and his passing is ordinary.

I asked for a more complete centre midfielder than Gerrard. Scholes was a cracking player but couldnt tackle if his life depended on it. No-one has come forwad yet.

I've just put up the same question on liverpoolway.co.uk, just to see what the opinion is, and wonder how many will say Lampard or Joe Cole. Obviously this is objective and so i just thought it would be an interesting test.

no problem Tim. first off, you have shown that you havent watched as much of him as I have because he didnt spend the majority of the season as an attacking player with no defensive responsibilities. Unless he is played behind a striker, which is occasional and not the norm, he always has defensive responsibilities. Jermaine Pennant played more games than any other liverpool player last season, wide right, so Gerrard wasnt there the majority of the season. Steven Gerrard can defend and tackle as well as any other midfield player in the country. He drived forward better than any other central midfield player in the country. His passing is as good as ANY PLAYER in the country, his shooting is as good as any central midfield player in the country (just because Lampard shoots every time he is within 30 yards of goal doesnt mean he is better) and he can cross as well as any player in the country. He doesnt have as many assists because he doesnt take all of the set peices, we didnt score all that many goals, and we are not very strong from set peices as a whole whether he takes them or not. The fact that he can play adeptly in any advanced midfield role and also as well as a full back should prove his merits. I ask again, name me a central midfielder who is as complete a player as Gerrard? Essien, maybe? aside from that, i cannot think of anyone, even then I think Gerrard is better than Essien at crossing and passing. The main point i was making is that for him to be considered the "most overrated player in the world" is obscene.

I dont mean to insult you, but are you an idiot? Mikel is a decent looking player with great prospects, Ballack has been sh*te, Lampard doesnt merit discussion, Makalele was great but not anymore. The main body of your point is ridiculous. I am a season ticket holder and i guess i see a lot more of him than you, and there are undoubdteldy games where he doesnt shine, but there are also the vast majority where he is a different class to everyone else. He isnt my favourite player, but he is without doubt the best player we have and I will say it again, THE MOST COMPLETE CENTRAL MIDFIELD PLAYER IN THE COUNTRY.

i half expected it, but laughing is one thing, naming a better one is more difficult i see.

yes i am on a chelsea board so i know the reaction i will get, but how f**king obsessed with our club are you lot? Out of all the players in world football it is Gerrard and Carragher who you feel are most overrated?! It is pretty laughable. How can Carragher be overrated when he doesnt get into the England team and rarely gets lauded over by any of the media. It is only foreign opposition players that ever credit him aside from our fans. As for Steven, he is the best all round central midfield player in the country, easily, how can he be overrated? Players like Totti, Del Piero, Raul (although he was ace for a while), Defoe, Bent, Paul Robinson, Rio Ferdinand, Ibrahimovic, not even getting a mention. you all need to take a step back and put your strange hatred of us and ours to one side. Oh, through Robben and Joe Cole in there too!

why are you so angry towards him lads, it was after all, only england.

agree about pompey, looks incredible, cant wait for that to be finished. dont personally like the beijing one, looks like one of them things poncey chefs make out of caramelised sugar and lump on top of your pudding.