RedRobMol

The same minority that killed the 96? The same minority that killed in Heysel? It's always a minority but what a price the majority have paid courtesy solely of Liverpool's minority. i dont know haw many times i need to say this, some of you really are ignorant (i mean that in its truest sense, it is not meant as an insult unless you choose to read it that way) about hillsborough. That was NOT caused by Liverpool fans. End of. It is not me saying that, the government backed enquiry said that. Read the Taylor report rather than the f*****g s*n. i can however take your point, however poorly conceived it is. Yes I must be one of the ignorant ones as I was one of those who traipsed all the way to Anfield to pay my respects to the 96 and make a donation collected through me at work. I gave up a couple of my most treasured Chelsea memorabilia and laid it on the steps of the Kop only to watch some scum of a Liverpool fan wipe his feet on it. Now that's ignorance. I watched the scenes at Hillsborough live on TV and wept as I watched people die before my eyes. I felt pain seeing that massacre unfold. When Heysel kicked off (which I notice you chose to ignore when responding - how convenient) I watched again in disbelief as Liverpool fans killed English football as well as other human beings on that fateful night. I was at Old Trafford for the FA cup semi against your lot and had to walk a cauldron of absolute hatred through some 3-4 thousand baying 'best fans in the world' and witnessed many of them kick and punch women and children through that walk. One of the idiots made the mistake of trying to pull me through the police line but ended up on the wrong side face to face with me - how the little cowardly squirt squealed as he realised he couldn't hide behind his mates. As a result of that I had the dignity of walking the rest of the way being spat at by dozens of your lot - at least I took the consolation I had diverted the attention away fromthe women and kids. Just for the record I don't read the f*****g s*n as you so eloquently put it so how dare you try to judge me in that way when you know nothing about me - I haven't judged you and could easily accuse you of ignorance (in the truest sense of the word). Whether you wish to hide behind the Taylor report or blame it on 'the minority' the fact is it was Liverpool fans who rushed in at Hillsborough (whether or not the police could/should have stopped it) and it was Liverpool fans who caused the deaths at Heysel. Had it not been for the police in Greece we could have been talking yet again about the way Liverpool fans killed English football but then again when you've got a TRULY IGNORANT PILLOCK in the shape of Rick Parry who effectively incites such behaviour with his comments about 'by hook or by crook Liverpool fans always get in' what can we expect. A man in such a position of power, especially associated with a club whose fans continue to rush gates to get in needs to take a very close look at himself as do the idiots (not aimed at you as you seem to have a slightly more balanced view) who continue to hide behind excuses and look to blame everyone else. Italy are doing the same, Turkey are doing the same and UEFA are doing the same but until such time as those that are directly responsible, and in your teams case that means the fans, face up to their own responsilbilties and hold themselves accountable for their own actions then it is only a matter of time before a massacre on a large scale happens again. Oh yeah, and happy birthday by the way. replied via pm to avoid slagging match. some good points definately.

cant argue with that, and that was my only reasoning for wanting it under wraps. if it was anyone else i would without doubt want it in the public domain. it is hipocrytical so i will have to take that back. EDIT: oh, by the way, happy birthday me!

however bad a few photos look this was never about violence, and in reality it was pretty small scale violence. the issue is the rushing of the gates really. The violence is not condoneable (is that a word?) but its the smaller issue without doubt. but yes, a fine would be fair. I actually mean fair as well, without precedent. whatever the size of it could be argued but more action than a fine would be harsh i reckon. as for an enquiry, i think there should be one, but i would like to see it kept under wraps and acted on in private, by the club, other clubs and the authorities to move forward.

i think you're right, but i also think that the statement had to be retracted as it was bullsh*t. I'm sure there was plenty in that report and i hope it was all noted and action taken by the authorities in general and ourselves where required. I just want to see how the f**king sunday s*n reports this.

i still think he is a greasy prick, and i KNOW he is biased against us, but i am not surprised he has backed down. the problem is that the mud has prbably already stuck and i doubt the NOTW will run as many pages on his retraction. we still got smeared. It shows up Galliard as a right twat though if it was him quoted in that rag.

thats as close to being told i am right as i need! thanks! No mate. That's a fraction of a millimeter away from being told you're wasting your time so do us a favour and stop wasting everyone else's. lofty, i am now enjoying this thread, it was hard work defending my corner but i have now started to really enjoy it, and it hasnt had to get personal (from either side) so i think i'm doing pretty well. No-one is making you come on here and read this! oh, by the way, for anyones interest.... Web Page Name

thats as close to being told i am right as i need! thanks!

"but i was bunking off school when they were talking about contraception, so if the school gates had been properly manned i wouldnt have been able to waltz out of there at 10.30 that morning and none of this would have happened!" am i winning yet?

no its not; IF the mother had 15000 children and did not have the faintest idea which of them was a burglar and which was an honest upstanding citizen (as most of them were) and told the police that she knew there was a house in her street which always kept its doors ajar (not just on the one occasion) and she told the police to tell that house to do something about it or one of her few not so honest kids might rob the place, and the police did nothing about it and the house got robbed, then the mother said "i know some of my kids are bad lads and i can't condone their behaviour, if you can tell me which one of them did it i'll do something about him, but i did warn you and you really should have done something about it when i told you" then it is just the same. Perhaps that is what you meant Elliot?

just to keep the circle going, why dont you care about x, y or z. because if the problem is to be solved x y and z need to be looked at as well. This is not black and white and i dont think we are looking for justification. i'm trying to think of an analogy, here is the first one i can think of that works... if someone gets into a sh*t load of dept beacuse they are not responsibile and take out a number of loans and credit cards and cannot keep control over their spending it is in essence their own fault, they are to blame. However irresponsible lenders keep offering them money despite the fact that they cannot afford it. It remains the fault of the borrower for spending the money and not being able to control themselves but there is also responsibility on the shoulder of the lender and their actions should be looked at in order to prevent the same happening to another person. The idea of bunking in may be more apparent with liverpool fans (and it does seem that way currently) however i am sure they are not the only fans in the world that will have done it. Continental sides do not generally have a great following to away matches and AC Milan proved this by not selling their entire alloaction for either this final or that in istanbul, and so there will not be the requirement, but if x, y, and z are not looked at this problem remains there for the exploitation of any clubs fans where demand for tickets outstrips supply, whether it happens or not the chance should be eradicated.

i dont know the chelsea and millwall scenarios but i will take your word for them, but i dont know what the club can do about these fans. If the ground has the ability to single out those without tickets then action can be taken against them and i am sure the club would be happy to help, however if it doesnt what can the club do. The club has a responsibility to all of its fans to protect their interests and yes that does mean doing what it can to prevent these yobs from doing this again, but how? If this was happening at home, or even away in this country (which bar the incidents you lot have stated in the semi, it isnt) then they could do more to influence it. part of the problem is that these grounds are not having teams play in them week by week. No one plays at the ataturk and no one plays at the olympic stadium in greece, at least thats what a mate of mine from athens has told me anyway. This has to be taken into account. I would not be against the club doing something about it, far from it, i would encourage it, but i do not want the club to put my name in the mud because of it.

No it's not the point. Where you're getting this full or no responsibility idea from I have no idea. This is what I wrote a little while ago. And that is still my opinion. All the stuff about Uefa, the police, stewarding, ticketing arrangements and so on ad nauseum, are merely side issues. What's being discussed here is the Behaviour of Liverpool Fans. Which was inexcusable. Dragging all those other elements into the arguments is an attempt to present a case that includes mitigating circumstances, a.k.a. excuses. i dont understand your viewpoint on this lofty. Who is asking us to "accept that these mistakes do not collectively excuse for one single minute, the behaviour of the Liverpool fans"? Is it you that is asking us to do this? Why? my issue here to to ensure that liverpool fans per se are not generalised by the indefensible actions of others, that to is the reason for the clubs reaction. THE CLUB HAVE DERIDED THOSE THAT WERE INVOLVED IN RUSHING THE GATES. They are not willing to take responsibility for the rest of it and had Uefa not have thrown this sh*t (and that is what it is) about us being the worst fans in europe then we would not be so defensive. I dont see why you want us to come out and say "the only people who did anything wrong were those that rushed the gates and we take responsibility for their actions". They werent the only ones who did something wrong, although they were the only ones that did something dangerous and illegal, and our club should not take full responsibility for what they did if they tried to help the authorities prevent it in the first place. Uefa have to take their share of responsibility, as do the club, as i have said, otherwise nothing will be learnt from this and no-one will have moved forward. Then it might happen again, and it might not be us, or something else might happen due to similarly poor management and we may have something far more serious than a few thousand people being gutted for not getting in. The location of this final, the on ein 2005 and in all likelyhood next years were not and are not appropriate venues for such a game and it is lucky that nothing more than this embarrassement has been caused so far.

i'll try and take this point by point, if you will. I dont want to argue with you and cannot on many of the things you have said, but some i can and will. thats an easy throw away line, but you know it is not practical. If it is, then why does stamford bridge have turnstiles? (I am waiting for someone to say somehting like 'bacuase of you c**ts at hillsborough, but we all had turnstiles long before then) If a stadium doesnt have turnstiles and isnt used for high profile football matches it should not be considered appropriate for the champions league final. Simple as that. That is a bad decision by Uefa and one that they must take accountability for. it was liverpool fans to blame and the club have derided those responsible. They have, they just want to protect the reputation of the majority whilst condemning the minority. I personally havent heard anyone blame the police for what happened and i know the club havent blamed them. I do have sympathy for them and they were right to close the gates, however they were without doubt heavy handed, but that is the norm with continental police. This is the point though Loz, it seems it has to be take full responsibility or none. Uefa are to blame for many things, the majority of things in fact, the club are also to blame for sh*tting on their fans before the match with ticket distribution, and THOSE fans are to blame for the trouble, which is what we are talking about. so it is impossible to apportion blame in any percentage, only for all parties to accept their part in it and do what they can to ensure it doesnt happen again. At the end of the day it will be difficult to see whether THOSE fans have taken their responsibility and learned until next time, but IF the other aspects are looked at appropriately and dealt with in the correct manner it can be ensured that THOSE fans cannot do this again whether they have the intent or not.

as i've said, the club have spoken out against the few, but they wont admit to making a balls up with the tickets and i know a lot of liverpool fans are furious about it. I can accept it somewhat as i was never elligible for a ticket but i dont like the way our club have acted on that front. As for going and enjoying the couple of days, plenty will have done. an estimated 40000 travelled. 17000 with tickets. If we guess that another 10000 bought tickets from touts and corporates (i imagine far fewer in reality will have done) that 27000. I dont know the numbers but i think it was in the region of 1000 fans who had tickets that were denied access, even if we call it 3000 for good measure, thats in the order of 10000 fans that travelled and did exactly what you suggested they should have. I just want to make sure that as many of our supporters avoid that big tarred brush as possible. There were without doubt people in the wrong but it was the unacceptable few.

perhaps you are right, but to accept the whole blame for this would be wrong. When there is a world cup the english authorities liase with the footballing authorities to stoptrouble makers and give their concerns, but there is much more involved than that with regard the safety procedures. Our club cannot in reality identify those that might rush gates but did give warning to the authorities that it may happen. That is taking responsibility as much as can be expected, asking for adequate checking to be carried out at an outer corden. These warning were not headed and the authorities on top of this chose to hold the game at a stadium with no turnstiles. This is why the club are not willing to accept full blame on this and I agree with them. The club HAVE said that the actions were not acceptable but the actions of Uefa were not acceptable either and you say we dont accept blame, when have Uefa EVER accepted blame for anything? Am i pissing in the wind, or do i have a fair argument?

there is a difference with the two finals though, and i am sure you do know it. Part of the problem with so many fans travelling was due to the shambles our own club made of the ticket distribution. We should know better as european finals are not new to us (history jibe, see that) but the organisation and distribution of tickets from the club was appauling, i am sure you have all read or heard about the ballot to allocate tickets. This meant that people had to book flights in the hope that they would get the ticket they were potentially going to get. Even Chelsea fans had booked tickets before the semi final as some were advertised on our forum to be transferred. If you have spent upto 2 grand on flights and accommodation you are going to go. You're not going to go to the same lengths to go to wembley as its going to be travel on the day stuff. This doesnt excuse the people rushing the gates, but it explains the reason so many travelled without tickets. It was far to late to cancel by the time some of them found out.

The same minority that killed the 96? The same minority that killed in Heysel? It's always a minority but what a price the majority have paid courtesy solely of Liverpool's minority. i dont know haw many times i need to say this, some of you really are ignorant (i mean that in its truest sense, it is not meant as an insult unless you choose to read it that way) about hillsborough. That was NOT caused by Liverpool fans. End of. It is not me saying that, the government backed enquiry said that. Read the Taylor report rather than the f**king s*n. i can however take your point, however poorly conceived it is.

easy to say as a throw away line. Ask Roma the club if their fans are dispicable and suggest they are the worst in europe for those incidents (which i beleive would be an easier argument to understand than the current statement) and i dont beleive they would accept it, in fact i think they would distance themselves from it further (although this is as much conjucture from me as it is from you). I dont know any liverpool fans that dont think those were despicable. I also know my club has slagged them, and i am glad they are pointing out the defficiencies of Uefa, even though i dont know many liverpool fans that are happy with the way our own club has dealt with us prior to the final.

C'mon Rob. It's hardly mud slinging. Liverpool supporters tried charging the gates at Stamford Bridge in the semi, some had forged tickets and some had tickets from the game in 2005! They did the same thing in the final. There is no excuse for travelling all that way without a ticket and trying to storm the gates, it's been done before resulting in a tragic loss of life, remember?! I think, from personal experience, all UEFA have done is stated the facts. I can understand you questioning the timing of this outburst, and giving the instances where Italian fans have been 'just as bad' or worse, but yet again Liverpool supporters fail to recognise their behaviour is unacceptable. If there's a big European game Liverpool supporters think it's their god-given right, weither they have a ticket or not! http://forum.raotl.co.uk/viewtopic.php? ... ht=bunking It's just not on! re-read what you have written mate, please. Then read this response. I beleive you have all got too hung up on this whole topic of bunking in. It is not right, and those that did it are deplorable, however it is a minority and it doesn not reflect the majority of liverpool fans. That said, they are amongs us and so we must take the flack for their actions, i can understand that, however I do not see that it makes our fans 'the worst in europe'. We know as well as anyone the problems that these actions can cause, despite there being far fewer comparisons with hillsborough than most of you will ever choose to see, and therefore should know better. However bad the actions of those supporters trying to 'bunk in' are, is it as bad as stabbing rival fans, or throwing petrol bombs? genuinely? I know you lot despise us (seemingly) and want to see us lambasted in this manner, but come on, flares thrown at players, fans kicking lumps out of each other, killing police officers, are all of these things so excusable that trying to get in for nothing and nicking a banner eclipse them? There were 7 reported arrests on liverpool fans in athens. Thats right, SEVEN. There were NONE in istanbul two years earlier, our fans were awarded by Uefa for their behaviour at the Uefa Cup Final in Dortmund in 2001, and praised highly for our participation in a potentially volatile tie against Juventus. On the morning of this years final we were again praised. I am not trying to excuse the actions of SOME of our fans, it has reflected badly on all of us and is not acceptable, but can you not see the reason for this report from Uefa, it is purely slinging mud in our direction and the men slinging that mud both have their reasons for doing so. Platini is a c**t of the highest order when it comes to his attitudes towards our club, we know why, but a man in such a position should not be allowed to have personal bias. If we are the worst fans in the whole of europe, then european football is in a much better state than i ever thought it was. I wonder which club will end up drawing Roma next season? I hope to hell it isnt us, as each of those stabbings english fans will, without any doubt, receive will be overlooked once again while Uefa are planning what silly dances and flags they are going to have in Moscow, of all f**king places.

not at all. without doubt a load of scumbags were to blame for that, but Uefa have to take a long hard look at themselves too, and it is of no surprise that they are slinging mud in our direction. I dont have the quotes to hand, but these same people were praising us prior to the final, and there were only 7 liverpool fans arrested (out of 40000 odd) in Athens and the greek authorities praised us in general too. Platini is bitter as hell towards us, there is no doubt about that.

Does beg the rather obvious question of why nothing has been done about it. havent read the reports yet, and i'm sure you're all going to have a field day, but please remember to keep a couple fo these protagonists in context. The News of the World, eg the sunday S*n. Never going to be our biggest fans and cannot wait to f**k us, and then the major protagonist, Michel Platini. He f**king hates out guts, not for the deaths of 39 fans in Heysel, but because we robbed him of his chance of glory. He was lambasted by Juventus fans for celebrating scoring the winning goal and celebrating the win as he did when he knew the plight of many of his own fans. His becomming head of Uefa was only ever going to be bad news for Liverpool, whether the troubles that did happen in Athens occured or not, it would only be a matter of time until he launched something as scandalous as this. Athens was obviously not a proud moment, in parts, a minority though. Feyenoord were thrown out of Europe this season for repeated crowd trouble. When we played Juve in 2005 their fans launched petrol bombs towards our end of the ground outside, they burned cars, set fire to coaches, nothing at all was done or said. Roma fans stabbed our fans in 2001 and 2003, and boro fans in 2006, plus the sh*t with United this season. Palermo fans killed a police officer and Uefa said f**k all, and the italian authorities didnt do too much either, yet we are the worst. I know i am pissing in the wind trying to defend us on here, and i am not perticularly trying to defend some of the things our fans have done this season with trying to get into games without tickets, but to say we are the worst behaved in europe is laughable, and i hope that even you guys can see that. EDIT: forgot to mention Inter fans chucking a firework at an opposition player and launching a scooter from the top tier of a stand. That is all.

i have voted, hope you dont mind, but i dont think you will win it next year and i think Jose will be off then. I think you can win it, i just dont think you will.

i think thats fair, although i will obviously rate him more than you guys, and although i dont beleive he is world class i do beleive he is one of the best, if not the best, in england. i dont think he was shown up in the final, although it wasnt his best performance, but you can see whenever he plays against henry where his deficiencies lie.

just to put that picture into persepctive...

you'll understand my stay on here wont be long today, but i thought i should show my face. The ting about being a liverpool supporter is that you can take this disappointing result with humility and dignity because we know there will be more european cup finals in the future. How can you truly take pleasure in success if you cannot accept defeat with humility. I thought we were the better team for the first half but we didnt create enough chances. Once Milan were in front they kept the ball very well and were probably deserving of their win, just. I thought we played better than in istanbul which is an encouragement. All this sh*t about playing for only one trophy, you can say it as much as you like, im not going to bite, at the start of every season we want to be challenging for the title, if we are not good enough then we cannot challenge, and that has been the case for too long. We all hope that next season we will be closer, again it will depend on our signings, but we are liverpool fans, we know there is no 'divine right', but we know where we want to be and that is at the top. See you all next season, and enjoy your summers.