20 hours ago, opinionsarelike said:

i understand the frustration at the lack of fabregas in our side, but i think a more nuanced discussion can be had about him rather than what i've seen so far this thread.

i think that first of all, it's important to understand and see that we played a very, very good game against what is after all a decent side. we created a bunch of chances, enough for three-four goals (even prior to fab's introduction and when we went all out). our midfield trio absolutely smashed swanseas to bits, and the only chances swansea had was through a sloppy cortouis and a horrible ref.

this is imo a game that 'any' other day is won by three-four goals, and i think it's important to understand that there isn't always a connection between performance and result. i really thought that the only thing seperating this game from the burnley game (which everyone agreed on was our best showing since forever) was lack of opportunism (not anything fab or conte could have done anything with) and a poor referee.

secondly, as i've mentioned somewhere on here before, i really think that physicality and athleticism at some point become so overrated (especially in england) that it is now underrated. with fabregas on and oscar/matic off we lose what imo has made us great against burnley and swansea, a strong core to build our attacks and defense from. i do get that people look to barcelona, bayern, real madrid and now city for their usage of small, technical players, but i think it's important to note that they play differently to us (i also think all of their 'smaller' players are better defensively than fabregas, but i have argued for that before). they press higher because they have a quicker defense. they don't have to set their defense line as low as us, and things doesn't become as much of a cluster and a physical battle in the middle.

there are other factors of course, but once matic went off we lost that midfield battle with a snap. saw this quote from bluelion just as i posted this and it is a perfect example of how having a tall guy in the middle maybe isn't such a bad idea after all. 

there are arguments for fabregas' case, but i don't think this game should be used as an example of how fabregas is needed. costa missed an open net at 1-0 and swansea should have had at least one player sent off before cortouis had a sudden moment of brainless-ness.

i fully expect the same midfield to start against liverpool and i can't say i would fault conte for it. after all he plays the same defense that looked like 4 doug rougvies last year and the goals we've let in this year is 1 dream strike from collins' left boot, 1 dream strike from capoue's wrong foot, 1 moment of tourettes for courtois and 1 clear as day refereeing mistake.

Important thought.

And on an unrelated note, you've stumbled on one of the reasons why "non-measurables" are still important in analysing football games. The performance so often belies the result because of variance affected by external factors.

I think that in general people conceive of "small technical players" as being physically incapable based on the stereotype of the 90s foreign playmaker, and there is a certain romance that English football in particular associates with physicality and tough-tackling that colours objective analysis even into the present day. These stereotypes are often edified by conceptualising "technical" players as we would at a Sunday league game; the winger is a scrawny-but-quick kid, and the 'playmaker' is the best passer in the team but usually can't be f**ked running.

The professional reality, of course, could not be further removed. Smaller players - particularly at the clubs you mentioned - are generally very gifted physically in pace, agility and often core body strength too. We've even had examples of this in our midst with the likes of Damien Duff, Ashley Cole, Kante, Makalele etc. In fact, if you follow other sports like basketball or AFL you'll know that while taller players can be physical and athletic you find that athleticism tends to tail off, for physiological reasons and tall players can't run and jump as well as slightly shorter teammates. Best example of this is the lack of aerial dominance that guys like Mikel and Matic show, relative to someone like Essien or Ballack. 

The problem is when you get a guy like Fabregas who has lost a bit of his former athleticism (probably due to injuries). He just doesn't cover ground or play with the same energy as he used to. I've done an commentary on his numbers in the Fabregas thread. Although I think we could, in some games, compensate for that with a fit and in-form Kante and Matic behind him, there's no way he can start alongside either one because he doesn't have the crucial ability to cut out passes and isn't inclined to get beyond the defensive lines like he used to at Arsenal, instead operating in a somewhat archaic playmaking role trying to spray passes to other players. I think that works when defenses are tired and the momentum is with Chelsea, but it's far too risky and easy to take advantage of at the start of the game. To be fair to Conte, the proof is very much in the pudding; we haven't started games as dominantly as this since we used to blitz them in the opening minutes under Ancelotti or Di Matteo.

Motd2 covering the game if anyone missed it: 

http://lasthl.com/bbc-match-of-the-day-2-11-sep-2016-full-show/

16 hours ago, dkw said:

I completely disagree with this, the last thing a team thats conceded should do is change players immediately. The opposition has its tail up and will attack again, so bringing on 2 players that then need 5-10 minutes to get up to speed in the game is a disaster waiting to happen, coupled with their team mates having to adjust to 2 new players who will more likely play differently and the manager wanting a more attacking emphasis. Ive always hated when a manger panics after a goal and makes wholesale changes.

I completely disagree with you too. The last thing a team needs is for the manager to do nothing, waiting does nothing at all. There were tired legs out there due to international break, changes should have been made a lot earlier. In the end, we just ran out of time  to win the game, while the 3 subs barely warmed up.

12 hours ago, icecoolguy22 said:

I completely disagree with you too. The last thing a team needs is for the manager to do nothing, waiting does nothing at all. There were tired legs out there due to international break, changes should have been made a lot earlier. In the end, we just ran out of time  to win the game, while the 3 subs barely warmed up.

It's a forum no issue with being critical but when people matter of a fact slate the manager do they ever think if they knew a fraction of what he knew they wouldn't be on a forum talking about it..it's easy to assume or critisize and I'm guilty of it too, however there are many facts we just don't have that conte does when making decisions, yes managers make mistakes yes it's fine to have an opinion but the matter of a fact shutdowns are a bit embarrassing, the man is a footballing knowledge bank he may have several reasons for not making changes one that I can think of is momentum, although we conceded we were dominating them, those same players will be determined to turn it round as you saw, make changes the players on heads may drop, then  there are points of no return when contemplating changes, side is in accendancy you keep holding on waiting for the goal don't want to disrupt it, time gets slim and it's a case of will they get this momentum back before it's too late....in the end we rescued a draw and had 10 minutes left to get the win shortly after he brought on subs....no idea where criticism lies in that, tactics spot on individual errors and the ref caused our issues it was a good performance. 

Edited September 14, 20169 yr by DonAntonio