FTAO BJD - Rourke and Joyce releasing new DVD

[loz]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/6906198.stm

[Tim W]

"one of the most influential and acclaimed groups in music history"

Biggest load of bollocks I've ever heard

[loz]

A shed load of bands that have come about since The Smiths would disagree with you. Countless bands that have formed since the Smiths broke up name The Smiths as one of the most important influences in their careers.

[Tim W]

I know - doesn't mean you have to agree with them- of course I would like to know what many of them mean by influence - he played a red guitar perhaps.

PS Don't like Morrissey meself, but I really rate Marr

[yorkleyblue]

A shed load of bands that have come about since The Smiths would disagree with you. Countless bands that have formed since the Smiths broke up name The Smiths as one of the most important influences in their careers.

Just because a shed load of sad w**kers sitting in bedsits listening to

one of the most influential and acclaimed groups in music history

then went off and inflicted their dire, drab and mournful wailings upon the world, encouraged by a music press that makes the Great British Football "Journalist" look like James Joyce, and further encouraged by a faddist and trend-driven, Z-list obsessed bunch of "style gurus" does not make it either right, funny, big, clever or acceptable.

Your Honour, the prosecution presents

Exhibit A - James Blunt

Exhibit B - Badly Sung and Written Songs

Exhibit C - The Morrisey "Revival" embarrassing fiasco

Nuff Said

If we are being truly honest, The Smiths were always an average pub band who, if they were playing for free in the Dog and Duck, you would not hang around for their second set unless you thought that you REALLY had scored with the new barmaid with the low-cut tee-shirt.

They always appeared to me to be a band of very little talent who believed the hype generated by the desperate need of the "Madchester, Hacienda is cool, at least we're not scouse" literati to make someone famous. The musical equivalent of Jade Goody, they are and were as influential and acclaimed as Chickory Tip everywhere outside of the minds of Time Out journos and students, and, and this is the most damning condemnation of the Smiths, they were DIRECTLY responsible for Travis.

I played a Smiths CD over the grave of Marvin Gaye in 1986 and the f**ker is still spinning now

Kev

[Tim W]

I think I've fallen in love

[loz]

Each to their own (said the monkey as it kissed the ape's ar*e) - for example I give you the Sex Pistols. Couldn't sing, couldn't play, could barely write music, in terms of musical talent they were not even good enough to be a garage band at a 17 year olds piss up because the French exchange kids were over. In addition to that they were an entirely manufactured band who despite all their bravado were a recipe of Malcolm McLaren - in essence they were no different from the SPice Girls except they spat and didn't wash.

Yet people still bang on that they were influential.

[bjd]

Whether or not you like The Smiths, and lets face it they are a very much love em or hate em band its impossible to argue just how influential there were/are.

Anyone who links the music to that of James Blunt i would serious have to question their knowledge!!

The Smiths were always an average pub band

I laughed out loud when i read that. Johnny Marr ? No talent. Behave. Behave. I notice the old bedsit cliche was rolled out again too.

The fact the above poster links them to the Hacienda and the Madchester scene (a scene that blew up 4 years after The Smiths split) somewhat proves that point.

Whats wrong with Chickory Tip by the way? Dont worry Kev, im sure it wont be too long before Robbie releases a new cd.

Each to their own of course!

FAO - Loz thanks for th pointer - cant wait!

[bjd]

Kev ive just re-read my post and i sound a right pompus tossser

Nobody likes a music snob so apologies.

[clubhappy]

Have to disagree with Loz . Matlock , Jones and Cook were the original founders of the Pistols along with Wally Nightingale , not McLaren , he was their manager and publicist . To say they couldnt write depends on what you mean by write . Pretty Vacant , Holiday in the Sun , God save the queen were written by Lydon[ Lyrics ] & Matlock [ Music ] , . One album was probably all they were capable of , not every track was brilliant but it changed British music because it was the first of its kind . I agree that without McLaren they would never have got the publicity or press coverage . Couldn't play ? I can give you a list of artists Matlock has played with since he left the Pistols . Jones was playing guitar since he was an early teenager , the producer of the Album called him one of the tightest guitar players he'd ever come across , with his own unique style of playing , precision and simplicity. Hes played with Iggy pop, Thin lizzy , Bob Dylan and Elton John. Vicious was just a useless tosser so not worth mentioning. Lydon , well theres PIL and Leftfied too .

[bjd]

Leftfied

Now your talking...

[loz]

Clubhappy,

I wrote that post a tad hastily and take some of it back - mainly about Jones who I hold up my hands and acknowledge he was a class above the rest of the band in terms of ability.

Matlock, for me, was at best average and I am 99% sure he was not one of the founder members as I think he was brought in just before Rotten was. What I mean by couldn't write was that what they did write was for my pretty poor and massivley overhyped even to this day so I do acknowledge they wrote the songs you mentioned however I just don't think they were that good.

And without McLaren they would most probably carried on being what they had been up to him becoming actively involved, a band that chopped and changed line ups and were bascially going nowwhere.

Howeever I do acknowledge that the Pistols were influential in that they were at the forefront of amovement that moved the British music scene away from what is now termed progressive rock (a title I have always thought a tad strange) however if the Pistols can be awarded credit for that then it is churlish to deny that the SMiths were equally influential as they were instrumental in moving British music away from sh*te like Banarama, Nick Heyward, OMD, Nick Kershaw, Thompson Twins, Phil COllins, not to mention pap like Billy Ocean and what turned out to be the appalling demise of Stevie WOnder and countless other bands that were just churning out bland pop for the masses.

Sadly British music then moved into an era of sh*te dance music however it was to thankfully emerge from it with bands like The Stone ROses, Inspiral Carpets, Happy Mondays, The LAs, Mock Turtles, Suede, (I should point out that these are not all bankd that I like, some of them are) etc etc etc - all bands which have clearly highlighted the Smiths as being a major influence on their music.

[clubhappy]

Loz , when you mention sh*te like Bananarama , Nick Heywood , Nick Kershaw etc etc , then look at sh*te like Spice Girls, Westlife , Stepps , you may notice history repeating itself . You have to point the finger at Smash hits magazine , Louis Walsh, Simon f*****g Cowell and most of all , Radio Stations . When a club manager insists on the DJ not being allowed play The Prodigdy, Faithless or Chemical Brothers its a sign of the wrong person in the wrong job . The same applies to the music industry.

When the Rave scene exploded in 1989 , it was a similar situation , it was something different but not accepted . ''Dont play any drug music '' i was told , so that must include The Rolling Stones , Thin Lizzy , Floyd , Bowie etc etc . The word ignorance spring to mind .

I accept your points regarding the Pistols and i'd be baised towards them because they being one of my fav bands . Probably because as a teenager i was blown away by them and that stayed with me through the years .

Were always going to have bland disposable pop music , fact of life so maybe i should go back to my old ways of getting pissed at gigs .

As for the Smiths , you either like em or you dont , personally i would have them top 5 bands as a personal choice .

Cooke & Jones were founder members , and your correct , Matlock came later

[yorkleyblue]

oh dear, oh dear, oh dear

I gotta come back to this thread, but haven't got the time at the moment - will edit this later

OK, not much to add I suppose. The eighties were a drab and dire period in the history of music, and so I suppose that The Smiths epitomise that era perfectly. Marr was an Ok-ish sort of player, but not GREAT, probably not in the top 100 (though that's possibly another poll!) And the lyrics were aimed at and gobbled up by the bed-sit crowd. I'm sorry, but I still hold onto the Blunt comparison - sad, tuneless slit-your-wrists music performed by a singer with very little range in something akin to a monotone. Now where have I heard that before? Oh, yeah! Morrissey! Without Morrissey, there could have been no Blunt, or any number of no-talent chancers.

However, I also have a view about the Pistols, who started when I was a lad. Regardless of who was or was not an original member, or what influence Mclaren had or didn't have, the Pistols did not even reach the heights of mediocre, musically. Why they were great and SUCH an influence was their attitude and self-publicity. To me, and to many like me, they said "f**k it, I can do that, I can make records, and the days of the stadium-rock dinosaur are DEAD"

They were wrong, but they changed the outlook and attitudes of the world. That's why the Pistols ARE an influence for good, even now, whilst I do not believe The Smiths are or ever were.

Oh, and Chickory Tip KNEW how to write and perform a good three-minute pop tune!

Kev

PS BJD - apologies not necessary, not pompous, no tosserage and no snobbery! I think it might be an age thing

[loz]

Fair points clubhappy

I guess if we take off rose tinted spectacles just about eveyr generation has its share of dross - 'Hang on Sloopy' was far from a classic!

Although there is s till a stunning amount of mass produced crap around now I do actually think the music scene is in a slightly healthier state now then it was say 7 or 8 years ago. I do get a sense now of people (OK I am not counting kids under the age of about 14) really pushing for a return to an era when bands could hold their heads above water playing live rather than simply getting away with sounding sh*t because you have a decent choreographer.

Probably worth me saying that I do appreciate the impact the Pistols, and more generally, punk, had on the British music scene however I just think the credit awarded to them is vastly blown out of proprtion. Having said that I totally acknowledge that this is a view not shared by many and I know that every time I state it people think I'm a fool!!

I suppose this whole 'who inflenced who' thing is a little like chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. Many will point at Hendrix and the impact/influence he had on the music scene but then you can trace Hendrix's influences back to Townsend but then Townsend states his influences were people like Bo Diddley and John Lee Hooker and so on it goes.