Is Scolari trying to much too soon.

[Chippy]

My Views on our problems and why Phil has not found a plan B

I think this is what comes of trying to come in and make instant changes in style and for this I think a lot of blame should rest with Abramovich.

When Grant took over the team he tried to keep us playing the way we had been for the last three years, he occasionally had the fullbacks coming forward a bit more and cut out a little bit of long ball stuff but basically we played in the same way often suffocating teams and out powering them.

sometimes under him we came unstuck when we kept attacking and never shut up shop and I think he came unstuck with Roman when he realised that the way we had been playing may have suited the team best ,

Grant had some joy with a little bit of flair football and we even managed to score 6 goals under him a couple of times which have never managed for a long while before him or since but he realised we had more joy in the big games playing to our tried and tested formula.

I am the last one to say this is the way we should be playing but Grant was trying rightfully to change it slowly, he never got the chance to bring in players he thought would help him change the system and now we have Scolari.

Scolari has given us instant change and our team on its day (even first half today) have played some very good stuff in his short time here.

He has though not yet found a way to stifle teams the way we used to and we are very nervous when we let a goal in.

We have got some important players out and that is making changing things difficult for him but both Mourinho and Grant had those problems and got through them well.

I think a gradual change would have been the way and although risking people saying he's just telling the players to do what they did under Mourinho we need a manager to do what I think Grant was trying to do and carry on doing just that while bringing in his own style more gradually.

If people don't see the suttle changes he shouldn't care and should keep getting the players passing game improving while knowing when to go back to the old formula.

the old formula may have no place for Deco and may involve the full backs staying in their own half more but there has to be more of a mix between the styles at least until he

has the players to change the game if it go's wrong.

He made a change today with Malouda for Mikel that at least was different to the norm, if that had been a Robben or a Robinho maybe we would have seen an inspired Scolari performance but relying on Malouda to make a big change while risking the midfield getting over run with Mikel missing is a bit desperate.

I am not blaming Scolari for everything that happened today, The Ref got it wrong and having no Bench to speak of was a factor but we still should have held on to the 1-1.

I think he needs money in January and he needs to look back at the way we have played for the last 4 years and incorporate some of the steel into our game.

the worry is though Roman wants pretty football (me too) does Scolari think about what happened with Grant and how well he done but still got sacked and does he think every game has to be played in a way that looks great even when it is costing us.

Does he think if he employs the same tactics that Mourinho used as Grant did on many occasions he will be sacked even if we do well? I don't know but it surprises me that when we are one up he has not watched enough of our past performance to see that we are very good at shutting up shop and overpowering teams,

Is it for fear of the same treatment from upstairs?

Edited November 30, 2008 by Chippy

[ethicalstrategy]

I honestly don't think it's about money. We have the players. If anything we are stronger this season. What we have lost is the steel and the heart when things go against us.

[Chippy]

I honestly don't think it's about money. We have the players. If anything we are stronger this season. What we have lost is the steel and the heart when things go against us.

I'm not saying Money is a factor, I am wondering if Scolari is almost scared to play in a defensive style as he thinks he needs to impress Roman with his "Samba" style

In the back of his mind I would imagine the last manager getting the team to a CL final and losing in a very unlucky penalty shootout while finishing runners up in the League

and then being sacked makes him feel he has to do something pretty special.

Maybe the fact Roman complained about the lack of entertaining football we played has put more pressure on him and curbed any tendancy he might have had to play a bit more defensively when the need arises?

[Kerry]

I'm not saying Money is a factor, I am wondering if Scolari is almost scared to play in a defensive style as he thinks he needs to impress Roman with his "Samba" style

Maybe the fact Roman complained about the lack of entertaining football we played has put more pressure on him and curbed any tendancy he might have had to play a bit more defensively when the need arises?

We can't look into Roman's head but the thought Roman prefers Samba over winning is hard to imagine. Or we couldn't just test how it feels to score an early goal and then park the bus like scum does. It couldn't be the players. I've still the impression that after some months of Samba they looked more convincing in the old style than in the new though they weren't able to win 5-0

[Nibs]

I honestly don't think it's about money. We have the players. If anything we are stronger this season. What we have lost is the steel and the heart when things go against us.

That was very apparant today.

Thing is, that is something that is nye on impossible to get back. Even in Mourinho's last season, the signs were that the spirit / steel had gone. Players getting complacement? Won back to back titles and the hunger just not there anymore? Bringing in the likes of Ballack & Sheva and getting rid of squad favourites like Eider & Duffer? Many things can contribute to losing that something we had a few seasons ago, but IO fear now we've lost it, we'll struggle to get back to the team we were.

One things for sure. If we have to rely on the Malouda's. Kalou's and Deco's week in week out, we have little hope.

Edited November 30, 2008 by Nibs

[TheWestwayWonder]

Chippy, you are dead on almost every point

I honestly don't think it's about money. We have the players. If anything we are stronger this season. What we have lost is the steel and the heart when things go against us.

Its that, but its the players too. Not having the kind of players we used to stick on the bench for fun probably makes those that are playing out there more cautious and more nervous . But if that is the kind of thing that is seeping into the minds of our players, then we have bigger problems.

However, ES, you are right. Something about this side has the smell of fear or lack of fortitude that we used to have

As people have said, we used to beat teams before they had even walked onto the pitch. That was not only a great Chelesa side, but a great side in the history of English football. We are mere mortals now, and beatable on any given day. Just like Liverpool, just like Manchester United. We have fallen into the realm of the other "great" teams and even that, I think, is a hard fact to accept.

[Chippy]

Chippy, you are dead on almost every point

Its that, but its the players too. Not having the kind of players we used to stick on the bench for fun probably makes those that are playing out there more cautious and more nervous . But if that is the kind of thing that is seeping into the minds of our players, then we have bigger problems.

However, ES, you are right. Something about this side has the smell of fear or lack of fortitude that we used to have

As people have said, we used to beat teams before they had even walked onto the pitch. That was not only a great Chelesa side, but a great side in the history of English football. We are mere mortals now, and beatable on any given day. Just like Liverpool, just like Manchester United. We have fallen into the realm of the other "great" teams and even that, I think, is a hard fact to accept.

Dead on every point?

I was throwing in a possibility and I still think it might have some basis.

[TheWestwayWonder]

no no, semantics

I think youre dead on accurate, on every point. i agree with you and think that this massive shift from water tight, cagey, tactical style to a flying, all out attack has maybe created a system shock. And I think there was an expectation that our defense was so good in terms of personnel we have that it would be alright

So far I guess it has, with six conceded in 15 games. But the other end isnt there. If we cant score, then it hardly matters if we can keep the other team out. And with Spurs, Man U, Liverpool, Arsenal, and Roma, we havent kept them out. Outside of those teams, we have conceded a grand total of 1 goal. 1 goal in 11 league games. Thats not bad at all, imo

Now, taking the theoretical stats further.... If we managed one more goal in each of the games against Spurs, Man U, Liverscum and the Arse, we would have two fewer defeats, two more victories, and six more points. THAT is a significant difference and to me says something. Get a few more goals from here and there and we would be riding high again.

Another point to consider about Scolari, specifically about his substitutions. Has anyone considered the reason he waits so long, leaving players who are clearly out of their depth in the game is that he has such a shallow bench? With Malouda the only experienced attacking substitution on the bench, as a coach, I might be more willing to keep what I have out there in the hopes that they will nick a goal, rather than introduce a substitute he knows wont change the impact of the game. Might sound a bit ridiculous and reaching for an apology for the man (call it the 'Scolari Defense') but think about it like this:

If you put out the best 11 on the pitch, and an injury crisis forces a reduced quality of attacking options on the bench, would you not just stick with the best players you have, especially if you lack the tactical acumen to make a fine tuned change?

Food for thought, I guess, but I think we need to get our attack at least halfway as good as Rooney-Ronaldo-Berbatov-Tevez-Nani. Right now I see Drogba-Anelka-J Cole. Beyond that....

(p.s. sorry for the bolding but i thought those two items were particularly interesting)

Edited December 1, 2008 by TheWestwayWonder

[Chippy]

I think we might have something , and yes I would leave my best 11 on as long as possible,

That said I find it a frightening thought if players like Stoch and Sinclair are that obviously far behind Malouda and Kalou...it doesn't bode well for their future if Scolari rates them so low he will leave inefectual out of form players on the park instead of giving them a run out.

But he sees them in trainig and we don't.

I know we all need to vent some anger when Chelsea lose but we need see what Scolari doe's with all his options on hand before we can really judge him.

I do think we need someone in the January window and I hope to God its not Ivanovic that we let go to bring some funds in.

[TheWestwayWonder]

I hear you. i have been posting furiously today as if, by my caring about and commenting on the situation, will somehow make it better. At the end of the day, im going to go to bed and we will still have lost 2-1. I was so furious at the final whistle that i turned the tv off, but not before I saw van Persie screaming in delight with his fists clenched. That image is burned into my retinas and makes me angry.

In January, I would say that Drogba, having done nothing, will be as good as gone. My only hope is that we get something halfway decent for him i.e. that Jose and Moratti are feeling generous. But I think his sale can go some way toward making up the fee of a new attacker, and if we have to recall Pizzarro to give us a free option, I would do that

Either way we have to find a happy medium. Jose's squad was huge, but he only used about 15 players with any regularity. Scolari's is too thin and now we are grasping at air when we need talent.

[icecoolguy22]

IMO Scolari played what he knew, based on Brazil and Portugal. The problem is instead of having Ronaldo or Ronaldinho he had to live on Malouda and Kalou. Looking at the players he got, and the one he wanted to get, he is trying to build a 'Brazilian' team here. He got rid of SWP - english winger, and Pizzaro , who can be a handy target man in game like yesterday. I dont know the real reasons behind them, but part of it got be Scolari did not believe these players fit under his system.

I honestly dont think he has much of a plan B or C, and doesn't look like he is trying too much so far. for the few 'easy' matches we had, he could have tried different formations with 25-30 minutes to go, there was nothing to lose. Instead we had only personnel changes, but same formation.

I hope he is a fast learner, because there are a few teams look forward to play us after seeing yesterday.

[TheWestwayWonder]

imo getting rid of Pizzarro was fait acompli given the miserable year he had, but I agree in principle.

If the club are looking to spend nothing in January, then we need to recall him, point blank. They were rid of him and Sheva in the summer, and replaced the two of them with Di Santo. Doesnt say much for keeping up the numbers

[wilko77]

imo getting rid of Pizzarro was fait acompli given the miserable year he had, but I agree in principle.

If the club are looking to spend nothing in January, then we need to recall him, point blank. They were rid of him and Sheva in the summer, and replaced the two of them with Di Santo. Doesnt say much for keeping up the numbers

Very good point and at least sheva give 100% all the time none of this pussying around

[Kerry]

IMO Scolari played what he knew, based on Brazil and Portugal. The problem is instead of having Ronaldo or Ronaldinho he had to live on Malouda and Kalou. Looking at the players he got, and the one he wanted to get, he is trying to build a 'Brazilian' team here. He got rid of SWP - english winger, and Pizzaro , who can be a handy target man in game like yesterday. I dont know the real reasons behind them, but part of it got be Scolari did not believe these players fit under his system.

Agree on it fully. But what I'm asking is now - although Scolari's game relies much on good wingers he got rid of SWP anyhow ... though they used to play on different sides but was SWP really that much that Malouda got preferred? Or is it just the side?

[forbzy]

Pizarro was even more maligned than Malouda (if that is possible) when he was here so it is funny to see his name being mentioned in the same sentence as recall. Perhaps it was just the system that failed him before though so we could give him another try. There is always Sahar rotting in the reserves at Pompey too.

I'm not sure how much SWP's departure had to do with Scolari. He had only been at the club a month (if that) and SWP would not have been an untouchable. The club probably got the offer from Citeh and decided to cut their losses. No doubt Scolari was given assurances at the time that Robinho would be the replacement so I'm sure he was fine with that. If Malouda or Kalou had been subjects of bids at the time perhaps he would have been asked to decide on one but I don't think that would have been a realistic scenario.

[forbzy]

I think we might have something , and yes I would leave my best 11 on as long as possible,

That said I find it a frightening thought if players like Stoch and Sinclair are that obviously far behind Malouda and Kalou...it doesn't bode well for their future if Scolari rates them so low he will leave inefectual out of form players on the park instead of giving them a run out.

But he sees them in trainig and we don't.

I know we all need to vent some anger when Chelsea lose but we need see what Scolari doe's with all his options on hand before we can really judge him.

I do think we need someone in the January window and I hope to God its not Ivanovic that we let go to bring some funds in.

As you say we don't watch the training sessions so it is hard to know if Malouda and Kalou overshine Sinclair/Stoch in those situations. I would say they are getting the nod more for their experience than ability although the fact that Sinclair/Stoch are not given a chance suggests they are not standing out as exceptional in training.

As posted by others I definitely think we should be giving the likes of Sinclair and Stoch a runout in those games where we are up by 3 goals or more. That is the best way to see what they can do without too much risk. It would also give them confidence so that they could make a difference off the bench in the big games.

[Kerry]

As posted by others I definitely think we should be giving the likes of Sinclair and Stoch a runout in those games where we are up by 3 goals or more. That is the best way to see what they can do without too much risk. It would also give them confidence so that they could make a difference off the bench in the big games.

Yes. It's hard to imagine they could do worse than Malouda and Kalou have done so far, despite having some good displays I'm not denying.

[icecoolguy22]

Pizzaro is part of Plan B, even if we get Robino, we still havent got plan B covered. Drogba was injured before preseason, so to going into a new season without a backup plan just showed how inexperienced Scolari was. In internatioanl football, selection is based on compeition or match to match basis, there is no real long term preparation. I suspect Scolari was still living in 'good old days' when he took over the job. Pizaro wasnt that bad of a player as the media portrayed him to be, he was in the same class as Santa Cruz back to the Baynern days, did score a few goals when given the rare starts. Im not saying he would have saved us yesterday, but if he was here, there would be a bit more hope than seeing young Stochi trying to save our bacon in his 10 minutes debut.

[Chippy]

Pizzaro is part of Plan B, even if we get Robino, we still havent got plan B covered. Drogba was injured before preseason, so to going into a new season without a backup plan just showed how inexperienced Scolari was. In internatioanl football, selection is based on compeition or match to match basis, there is no real long term preparation. I suspect Scolari was still living in 'good old days' when he took over the job. Pizaro wasnt that bad of a player as the media portrayed him to be, he was in the same class as Santa Cruz back to the Baynern days, did score a few goals when given the rare starts. Im not saying he would have saved us yesterday, but if he was here, there would be a bit more hope than seeing young Stochi trying to save our bacon in his 10 minutes debut.

I certainly wouldn't mind Pizzaro up front with Anelka on occasions when we are in need of something more, if we dont buy in January I would take a recalled Pizza rather than

hope Drogba is fit or in the event Anelka is injured..

we would all love to be able to bring in a big name young striker but if it's down to money then Pizzaro would be decent back up.

I dont think he would ever set the Prem alight but his hold up play was very decent and he always tried hard.

if we had Anelka, Drogba, Pizzaro and Di Santos it at least might give us a bench with a proper striker on it.

[ethicalstrategy]

That was very apparant today.

Thing is, that is something that is nye on impossible to get back. Even in Mourinho's last season, the signs were that the spirit / steel had gone. Players getting complacement? Won back to back titles and the hunger just not there anymore? Bringing in the likes of Ballack & Sheva and getting rid of squad favourites like Eider & Duffer? Many things can contribute to losing that something we had a few seasons ago, but IO fear now we've lost it, we'll struggle to get back to the team we were.

One things for sure. If we have to rely on the Malouda's. Kalou's and Deco's week in week out, we have little hope.

I'm not sure it was the steel/spirit that was going in Mourinho's last season. Perhaps a little with players that he didn't really want being foistered on him. But mainly it was a combination of injuries to key players and the feud between him and Roman that disrupted us. I thought even last season we still played with the same heart and grit that we had seen before. It is this year that we have developed a soft centre.