ethicalstrategy

I know it!

Ethical strange for you to come in and quote me with a cutting line that is unarguable unyet have no regard to the points I made which I feel are the mitigating circumstances while trying to answer dkws question, Winners are only winners with the right circumstances and nearly men could be winners without the wrong circumstances, we can only guess what Grant would have achieved with what was available to Jose in that first season as we can only guess what Jose would have done with what has been available to Grant since he came in, although if the start of this season is any pointer, I would guess not a lot different. oh and Bluenut the answer to your 4 questions even to me is no But your just dealing with supposition Chippy. You guess Grant might have done as well as Jose or that Jose would not have done any better than Grant. I'm just dealing with facts. What jose achieved is on record. It happened. Was it because he just had great players? Was it because he had a stack of money? Maybe. but the fact remains that he was a winner. It is unarguable. He won at Porto and he won at Chelsea and he will win wherever else he goes next. Grant didn't win on sunday. Doesn't matter why. He still didn't win. Winners are winners and nearly men are nearly men. Think Tiger Woods and Colin Montgomerie. One is a born winner, the other is a terrific golfer but when it comes to the crunch he can't quite make it in the majors.

Difficult to only select those who are staying as that may well not be known. I can't get my head round the clamour for Sinclair. I must have missed his terrific match winning performances. It sounds more like a case of a players reputation improving because he isn't playing. The important thing for me is to try and settle on a way of playing that is more effective than the recent performances. It seems crazy to have two world class strikers and not to use them, so providing Drogba is fit (I'm not convinced he is) then he and Anelka have to start in a 4-4-2 formation. That means we have to play our most attacking full backs to provide the width. ----------------Cech -------------JT-------Carvalho Belletti----------------------------Bridge ----------------Mikel -------Lampard----------Ballack ----------------Cole ----------Anelka -------------------Drogba Subs: Cudicini, Alex, Essien, Kalou, Sheva Essien misses out on form and Maka is rested for the wednesday game against Olympiakos. The key is to make sure that the fullbacks really push on and that we can get the ball in to Joe's feet. If they play deep then either JT or Ricky have to bring the ball out of defence. And if it isn't working right we need to find someone who has the basic nouse to make the necessary changes. Know anyone good?

I wouldn't like to guess the answer to that dkw, it's a very good question, my take on it is after not much success for a long time Jose came in at the right time for Chelsea and Jose, he had a very good team put together by Claudio and starting to look like proper contenders, Jose then had a great season and his first 30 or so games were pretty much the same results wise as Grants, bar 20 minutes even with some very bad tactics and lak lustre players Grant could have had the same Cup as Jose at this stage, He was getting some respect until that game and insult to injury it had to be against Spuds, Jose had the luxuary of Stevie me scoring a blinder or the results would be closer Your question as I digress I feel that it was a perfect time to take over a very good team when Jose came in and as Roman had been here for a short time its almost like the two came hand in hand, the results followed and us having the funds to buy Drogba's and Essiens that we could never before have contemplated made the job more comfortable, this was a winning combination that makes comparing Jose to any of our previous managers unfair IMO, I like to imagine what Ruud would have done with what was availlable to Jose and what style of football we could have seen, I think by season 3 under Jose other teams had begun to play better against our strangling style and by this season others had improved whereas we had not. that said the trophy haul and records set were phenominal and credit to Jose for what we achieved, The reason I have gone through this is because I think a lot of people associate our success and Jose without giving much credit to the success and Roman fact, I realise Claudio had a short time with Romans backing and he done ok but I feel he done better than ok and I think he started the winning chelsea ball rolling, he got a great squad together and was on the right track, even the CL exit where he got everything wrong (ala Avi in the CC final) must have been a nerve rattling time for him with Jose waiting to step into his Job, no wonder he cracked and put JFH in at RB I just cant think of circumstances better than Jose had in his first season to help a man to legend status (which he deservedly has) so back to your question, If Jose had come in after a man who had got the Job and got the Job done in the same circumstances Jose did then I believe he would have no chance, I do believe though he would have a few more people ready and willing to give him time purely because he had huge personality and charisma and everyone loves to see someone holding there own in the old mind games and stuff like that, obviously everyone knows I stick up for Grant and it's not because I think he is a great manager it's because I am not sure that he could'nt be. I'll have some of what Chippy and dkw are smoking please. I think you guys are missing the point completely. If Jose had lost......but he didn't! He might have, of course, but he didn't. And therein lies the difference. Winners and nearly men. Doesn't make Grant a bad person but it does make him a bad choice for manager when you have ambitions to carry on winning things.

This is not the big question, although it might qualify as the most stupid question. Cech is our number one keeper and should remain so. Carlo is nowhere near him in any aspect of his game.

The idea that we might win the league or the CL after yesterday's dismal showing is just laughable.

Before Mourinho we were gallant losers more often than not. When he arrived he turned us in to winners. Under Grant we have gone back to gallant losers. We used to have 'boring" football and success under Mourinho. Now we have boring football without the success! Whatever you want to say about the players, the fact is it is up to the manager to get the best out of his team, to give it the belief and the determination to win whatever the odds and to react to how any particular match is evolving tactically. Grant scored a big fat zero on all those counts today. Make no mistake, if we had won that match it would have been unjust on Spurs. They were better than us - but think about the fact that these were the same players that were sh*te under Jol (mostly). The difference for them is that they have Ramos - a manager who knows what he is doing and is able to deliver on all of the above characteristics. I'm disappointed but not surprised by what happened today. It's been coming. I can't remember the last time we played really well.

my son and I have tickets. We're season ticket holders. Got them on the Internet as soon as they were available.

The difference is mate we all know what Joe is capable of and he often comes up with the goods. Wishful thinking Nibs. Notwithstanding his couple of match winning goals a few weeks ago, Joey has been pants. Clearly taking Mourinhos shackles off him has not produced the results many had hoped for. His best game in recent weeks was the 60 mins for England. At least Malouda actually had a couple of shots last night even if he was rubbish. Joey was non existent.

Never mind the red card. A scabby, deflected shot and a cross that went in. I think we can book them a place in the final now!!

have to agree with bluebeard. Just like watching the pool match all over again. I just hope we don't pay for our lack of ambition. I'm not sure malouda deserves any more stick than cole or essien or ballack or pretty much anyone apart from our defence. Whoever said mourinho would have been happy with tonight perfomance is way off. We left a pile space in the midfield. Luckily they were unambitious and sh*t. Maka was left as our playmaker far too often. Its not his game. Poor tonight.

Easy choice today. Well done Frank. Sinclair started well but I thought he faded in the second half.

Next sunday will be interesting. Mourinho played 3 cup finals. CC v Liverpool - won CC v Arsenal - won FA Cup v Man U - won Three cup finals, three wins against our three biggest rivals. No pressure Avram.

Quite right. It's only teams like Liverscum that don't bother to compete for a league they knew they never had a chance of winning in the first place. I'm not suggesting that we give up. I'm just observing that even if we won all of our last 12 matches, which is the only thing we can do to influence things, we would probably not get enough points to win the league.

I have defended his lack of credentials I have defended his dubious relationship with Roman his looks, his clothes, his religous beliefs, his wifes penchant for p*ss, his team selection, his substitutions hell I even kept quiet about the night he went behind Callista's back but this Loyalty can only stretch so far, I give up Your problem is that you are always too quick to criticise

I think we can settle this argument once and for all: I just got my copy of this months Chelsea magazine and on page 15 is this quote:- Avram Grant - "My first English game I saw at Wembley was the 1977 FA Cup final - I was almost killed! I was in the Manchester United end supporting Liverpool. I guess I had the wrong hat on." The man must be dismissed immediately!

Normally, I'd agree that this type of match would be an opportunity for some of the fringe players and youngsters. However, with the league looking unlikely at best, I think we need to focus on retaining this trophy and use the match to get our injured and recently absent players back playing together. I would go with something along the lines of: ---------------Cudicini Ferreira-----Alex--------Carvalho-----Bridge ---------------Mikel -----Essien-------------Lampard ---------------Cole --------Anelka--------Drogba Subs from: Cech, Hilario, Belletti, Cole, JT, Ben Haim, Ballack, Makelele, Sidwell, Malouda, SWP, Kalou, Sheva, Pizarro We can then swap things around once we get comfortably ahead. The squad is starting to look pretty strong now. I don't think any of the younger players like Sinclair will really get anywhere near the squad again this season.

Based on the fact that Adabeyor is in his 3rd (?) season with Arsenal shouldn't you wait a couple of years before making that comparison?

You misunderstand. I'm not on his case for drawing. I'm on his case for not trying to win. We might have lost in the process but I wouldn't have held that against him. Better that than tame submission. I can't be happy about not winning the league, and I do really think that is beyond us now. Maybe if we can win the CL I will feel differently, but I am certainly not expecting to do so.

I do agree with you here ES. Sunday's was a MUST win game. Especially after ManU dropped those points and we had home advantage, and yet we simply didn't go for it. Alright, I'll accept our bench might not have been at its strongest, but I still think AG could have changed the formation and the personnel earlier. Tried different options. Gambled a little. However, that said, it really reminded me of Barcelona at the Nou Camp in 2006. Remember that game? We needed to win and score twice after losing 2-1 at home in the first leg? I was out there for that one and every Chelsea fan who had travelled really believed Jose was gonna set the team and go for it. After all we had little to lose. But that is not what happened, in fact we gave a sterile, cautious, toothless display with only an injury time Lamp's equaliser from the penalty spot giving us anything to cheer about. I remember being very, very unhappy with the performance of the team and Jose's tactics afterwards. And yet even after the game at the post match press conference, JM seemed more fixated with the fact that Barca hadn't beaten us rather than the fact that we were out of the CL. I understand what you are saying Just. In fact I agree with you about the Barca match. It was really disappointing. But it is a red herring. We know about Mourinho. We know his strengths and weaknesses. But he is gone now. Of course his successors will always have to stand comparison with him and it would be hard for anyone to come in and achieve what he achieved in such a short space of time. But it is irrelevant to assessing whether Grant is up to the job. We just have to asses Grant on what he achieves or doesn't achieve. And on Sunday he was too timid. I think most of us agree on that. And whilst the team has produced good results overall since he took over, he hasn't done so well against the other top teams. Yes, there are a host of extenuating circumstances, but ultimately they don't matter. Against Arsenal we deserved a draw but didn't get it. Against Man U we were undone by Mikel's sending off which was also unjust. Against Liverpool we might have nicked it if Ballack had put his late shot the right side of the post, but he didn't. It smacks of valiant loser rather than ruthless winner. Some people have the winning instinct and others don't. I think Grant is another Ranieri not another Mourinho/Fergie/Capello/Trappatoni.

It's over for sure. I can't see us winning all 12 remaining games and Arsenal and Man U won't lose many more - apart from when they come to the Bridge of course.

It is not about finding it easier to score or playing better or blowing them away. It's about needing to win and not really going for it. Most matches we have played against Liverpool in the league under Mourinho we wanted to win and mostly we did but I can't remember any must win matches against them. Yesterday was a must win. It wasn't working so what did we do to try and change things? Nothing. Tactics remained the same and what changes in personnel were made were far to late. Poor, very poor. I would disagree that this game against Liverpool was any more of a "must win" game than any other in recent seasons. Liverpool have little chance of catching us in the league and we still have both Man Utd & Arsenal to come to The Bridge. And the performance was no poorer than any of the three cup exits we suffered against Liverpool under Mourinho - with the Champions League matches definitely being "must win" games. And in those matches, Mourinho had pretty much a full squad to select from. Go look at the table. Work out what results we need in our last 12 games and what points Man U and Arsenal need to drop in order for us to win the league and then come back and tell me that Sunday's match wasn't a must win game. All I'm saying is that we needed to really go for it and we didn't. It is not about Mourinho and whether Grant is better than him - you could try convincing me of that from now until the end of time and you'd fail - it's about Sunday's match and our lack of ambition. Any manager worth his salt would have made more of an effort to win that match even if it meant risking losing.

...and it is now. I just finished the season on the BBC predictor and the news is not good. I allowed for us winning all remaining 12 games and for Man U beating Arsenal and Liverpool holding Arsenal to a draw and we finished level with Arsenal on 91 points but with a much worse goal difference. The only consolation is that we finished ahead of Utd. I think we can safely kiss any chances we had of winning the title goodbye now

It is not about finding it easier to score or playing better or blowing them away. It's about needing to win and not really going for it. Most matches we have played against Liverpool in the league under Mourinho we wanted to win and mostly we did but I can't remember any must win matches against them. Yesterday was a must win. It wasn't working so what did we do to try and change things? Nothing. Tactics remained the same and what changes in personnel were made were far to late. Poor, very poor.

Th big decision yesterday was whether we should actually risk losing the match to try and win it. Given the position we were in we had to try and win it. I'd have forgiven a loss if we'd tried, but we didn't. A draw was no good to us whatsoever. We may still have a chance at winning the PL if we win all 12 matches that are remaining. Anything else and we will come up short. So no more draws - win or lose trying to win. And don't sit on your arse waiting for something to happen Mr Grant. Make it happen.