dodojojo

Westway Wonder, good post. You touch on something that I've thought of but didn't know how to articulate. But perception is everything isn't it? Over the last 48 hours, we've seen another spike of Torres is sh*t topics in cyber Chelsea land. And I beg the question, why? What is it based on? Has he been extra crap lately? Or as you right pointed out, he's not started the last 4 games and has played about 20 minutes the last 3 games? In those 20 minutes, did he do something horrible? Or is it because there has been intense speculation about why Drogba is starting over Torres? A part of that is to defend Drogba starting, it is necessary to dress Torres down (which is understandably a reaction to people slating Drogba). Not so much when the team loses all 6 points against Liverpool and Leverkusen and are on the brink of being bounced out of the CL. But a nice win over lowly Wolves and then it's knives out on Torres. It'll be interesting to see what the posts and headlines are should Chelsea get bounced from the CL or lose to Newcastle should Drogba continue to start (I expect him to).

He's the manager, he can do as he please with the team but that's garbage. How does that explain starting Drogba for 3 games in 6 days? While Torres hasn't started a game in about a month?

Funny but that's actually the opposite of why some of us question Lampard's return to starting every game now. It's not about his scoring. Where's the transition when AVB asks for 180 minutes from DD, Lampard and Terry in 4 days? They're not exactly spring chickens anymore. Where's the transition he starts 7 players from Mourinho's team? Where's the transition when he does both those things and ends up with zero points anyway?

I really don't get it. The team looks much worse today than it did in September! I know the team wasn't all that great back then but at least you felt that the team was moving forward and AVB was trying to slowly focus the team on Mata, Torres and Sturridge. Now it's like 2010-11 again. Is he going to sink or swim with Lampard/Drogba/Terry again? Why can't this team move on?

Where did I mention Malouda? Sturridge has great potential and as soon as he can give an extra percentage or two to team play, he'll be a great asset to Chelsea. I'd hope AVB is on his ass about that as he's still young and can learn and change. But right now, like any young slightly misguided player--he's not the best team player. Which is a big deal right now as we need someone to link up better with the CF. As a compliment to Sturridge, I think he's entirely capable of doing it. It's a question if he's willing to knuckle down to it.

Yes but Sturridge can actually score.

It's mainly down to the fact that he's not as good as Silva right now who is in great form and may never be. But he's still a very good forward. Mata has largely been ineffective lately because he has to drop deeper to the ball. He's not a midfielder! Just because he's technically more gifted than any of the midfielders Chelsea has right now does it mean he should spend so much time there. But it shows how poor Chelsea's midfield is in pushing the ball up quickly. Mata is a forward, almost a second striker and he needs to play much closer to the CF. If I'm AVB and I want to find system that has Mata and Torres closer to each other. Gerrard/Torres almost. But no one wants to cop to it because it was a LFC thing even though it would probably be the best solution while we bring in new players. Problem is who supplies from the MF? Meireles?

What Sturridge giveth in goals he taketh away with his decision making and poor team play. He took a ridiculous shot when there were at least 3 Chelsea players in the box. Next thing you know, the ball goes out wide and Johnson embarrasses Cole and company on the other end. Is he ever going to pass the ball so one of his teammates can score? Or will he childishly shoot or hold onto the ball for far too long until AVB gives in and makes him CF?

Ask Del Bosque and Aragones. A lot of people in Spain rage about Torres. DB has said that Torres is a good player, one who can change a game, a good teammate and even if he doesn't score, contributes to team play (creating space, offering Plan B). Before his loss of form? He was picked because he was one of the best strikers in the world. DB and Aragones before, weren't going to leave a striker like that at home even if the national game didn't suit him. Now, there's a lot of pressure on DB to drop Torres. He continues to ignore the pressure but if Torres' form doesn't pick up. I can see DB dropping him. Btw, people want Soldado to replace Torres. Well, Negredo is out injured and Del Bosque still didn't select Soldado. So I don't think people can blame Torres for why DB won't select Soldado. Why would a CF who thrives on a fast direct game with open spaces be better at Serie A where they play slower and defend much more tightly? I don't get this one? When did I say he had a great understanding with his AM teammates? AM wasn't very good when Torres was there. The team was actually relegated when he made his debut and they never finished higher than 7th in La Liga. That's why he left after 7 seasons. He wanted to play in the CL. I don't know the details but first, AM for all their troubles is still the 3rd biggest club in Spain. They're not super rich but as they bring in money, they can spend. They sold Aguero and brought in Falcao. They sold Torres for a record fee and brought in Forlan, Simao and others to improve AM. They just can't spend like City and Chelsea. But they can afford to pay one or two top players. Like I wrote earlier, Kun was reportedly getting over 200K a week. Torres was over 100K when he left in 2007. He had a contract that ran to 2015 I think. He was the 2nd highest paid player after Gerrard. Torres wasn't hurting for cash. City wanted him in 2010 and were reportedly going to make him the highest paid player in the PL. But he wanted CL football and Chelsea offered that. I'm not saying he's playing for fresh air, but I dont' think his sole motivation in football is money. I agree that Torres needs to improve his game. But is it not fair to ask about the service to him? Will you give him credit for making a 100 fruitless runs? That's what some of us said before and the reply was, "We didn't pay 50M for his runs!" Well, how about pairing some of the runs with some service? Or are you saying Chelsea's just fine, it's only Torres who needs to improve? Not me, I think improvement is needed everywhere. Even steady Cech has had some horror moments this season.

Alan, did you reply to my post? If so, I'll address your reply. If not, my apologies. You're the one who brought up "body language" and I tried to address that. He wouldn't succeed because he doesn't the have the technical skills to thrive in Barca's tiki taka system. Barca's system also doesn't accommodate a traditional CF like Torres. Drogba couldn't play for Barca either. Torres came to England because the league suits his direct style much better. Torres is a very atypical Spanish player. See Barca explanation. Please explain this one? Who is going to win trophies with? He doesn't fit Barca's system. He won't play for Real Madrid. Who else is going to win trophies in Spain? Maybe that's why Juan Mata's in England now too? He wasn't going to win anything with Valencia. RM was never going to take him back. And Barca didn't want him. Don't think that's the point I was making. If that was the case, why wouldn't he had stayed at Atletico instead of taking a paycut to join Liverpool? If AM was paying Aguero 200K weekly, what do you think Torres would have been paid if he had stayed? So because he's a millionaire, he doesn't care about how he plays? Does that logic apply to other footballers too? There are plenty who make just as much or more money than Torres. Your call. I don't think he doesn't care. With the scrutiny he gets, I would think he cares very much. Just because he doesn't get down his knees and pound his fists doesn't mean he's just collecting his check.

I'm not in his head so I can't honestly answer the question. But I'm always amazed by how Torres inspires some dogma about him. "Body language" has got to be the best one. Maybe he just has a pouty face? He's well known for being a very quiet guy. Maybe he's just not Mr. Personality. He looks the same when he's playing for Spain. Does that mean he doesn't want to play for Spain anymore? The other is he doesn't care...he left his boyhood club where he was and still is an icon for CL football. He left Liverpool where he was worshipped (why do you think they were so hurt when he left?) because he wants to win trophies, not just hearts and adulation. He could have stayed comfortably at Atletico and collected 200K plus every week. He could have stayed at Liverpool and lived his life out as a Kop idol. No, I think he effing cares. He staked his career and reputation with his transfer to Chelsea. He may suck as a striker right now, but I just don't buy the he doesn't care reading. He said in a recent interview that he never used to think about injuries but now he does and is more mindful of them because he realizes he still wants to be playing football when he's 35 or 36. Does that sound like someone who isn't interested?

Where's the Lampard thread when Genk ended 1-1? And I'm on record as Torres should have scored.

Don't expect him to receive the ball 30-50 yards away from goal, kick it into space and outrun multiple defenders and score. This may happen once in a blue moon, but it's not a sustainable way to get goals. I do expect him to be clever and create separation from defenders in the box and give his teammates the opportunity to make good passes. See examples of goals against United, Swansea and Genk. Why hasn't that happened the last 3 games?

First goal - perfect, I mean, perfect pass from Kuyt. Great first touch by Torres made the strike easy. Second goal - Meireles nicked the ball off Cole when he slipped, gets the ball quickly up to Torres who is in acres of space along with Brana. Brana backs off of him and Torres fires a superb strike that leaves Cech's feet nailed to the ground. Yes, the goals had a lot to do with Torres having great form that day but the service helped. He didn't have to drop deep and wide to get the ball. Less dribbling, less of a chance to lose the ball. His focus was being lethal in the box. Remember anything else he did that game? Not really. Hodgson had Liverpool close up shop in the 2nd half. Torres could have read a book as he was in Chelsea's half all by himself. Torres has to be better, that's a given. But do we remember what AVB said this summer? That he wasn't going to fix Torres, he was going to fix the team and that a better team was going to mean a better striker. Just like what happened with Falcao. Does AVB still believe in that? I think with age and injury, Torres isn't ever going to play like the Torres before 2010. But look at his goals this season. Sure there aren't many, but they are quality goals taken by a skilled striker. Not tap ins, not bounces that came his way. They are goals that require someone with skills in the box. He won't blow past people anymore. But he can do some very good things if he gets consistent service in the box. Torres needs to adjust to his current strengths because they can still lead to goals, so do his teammates and the coaching staff.

Torres should have converted. It was a tricky ball but he should have done better. I don't want to give him a pass. His touch and dribbling has been pretty bad the last 3 games. The pass to Sturridge was bad. But I feel his passing has actually been good overall. The Genk pass to Ramires was world class. That was better than anything anyone did in the game. He made a terrific pass to Sturridge just a few minutes before his miss. The problem for Torres is he gets one chance and if he misses, then it's the end of the world. Why can't anyone figure out why Torres as the CF is getting one legit chance at goal per 45 minutes? What is he doing wrong? What is the team doing wrong? That's what is most frustrating and the issue that needs to be addressed. Not a stupid miss. And it's true if Torres misses, it's headline news. If anyone else misses, there's some gnashing of teeth, but are entire threads started about them? Headlines written? Clips shown over and over again? Is Youtube full of Lampard's miss against Genk? That goal would have likely meant 3 points and the group win for Chelsea. Lampard didn't deserve that kind of treatment and rightly so. I tell you what, Torres is going to continue to miss. Strikers do. He missed some howlers for Liverpool too. And at Atletico Madrid, he actually was known for it. Difference for Liverpool is that most of the time, he had chances to make up for the misses. I despair when I watch Torres getting 1 or 2 chances a game for Chelsea. There's something very wrong. If it's him, then he shouldn't be the CF. But I suspect that it's not all him.

Like any of the players he has his good and bad points. He is a very good scoring midfielder. Seems born for it. But as a MF, he doesn't really control the tempo of the game nor will he press very much to get it back. His lack of pace means good midfielders just move around him with ease. He also gives the ball away at times. His weaknesses do pose a serious problem for the game AVB wants to play. But you can't deny he'll give you a goal. In the previous systems, that one goal would have been enough for 1 to 3 points. But since it's a given Chelsea will let in goals now, a goal from Lampard isn't enough anymore. I would interested in seeing a Meireles/McEacharan/Romeu midfield tomorrow. All three are very comfortable on the ball and it'll be interesting to see if they can dictate the midfield. Of course Genk aren't of the same caliber as Arsenal's.

You think Anelka as CF would have pressed more than Torres? Really? It's hard for any CF to play the pressing game by himself against two CBs, the keeper and add in the help from the fullbacks and defensive midfielder. If you want the CF to press, then ask the rest of his team to join in. Barca press in packs and oh, they don't really have a true CF to boot. Chelsea is playing a high line but that only really works when the midfielders are willing to press. Does Chelsea midfielders press? Try to get the ball back in packs? Blah, blah, blah on and on. AVB talked about an evolution this summer. The problem is that there has been a slow evolution in the personnel but a revolution in the tactics. The incongruity of these two developments resulting in very disjointed performances. If AVB was going to blow up the system, he should have blown up the squad too. That's why I don't participate in discussions about how starting either Josh/Luiz/Brana/etc is going to miraculously improve the team. There are too many holes to fill with square pegged players right now. One current player isn't going to make that much of a difference. The best thing is for AVB to modify his revolution to coax a Top 4 finish out of this squad. Anything short of 4th would be a disaster. From his post-game comments, he doesn't sound like he's inclined to compromise. Either we get better suited players pronto in January or AVB juggles things a bit to accomodate the players he has on hand. Do you really see Drogba and Lampard pressing the opposition for 90 minutes?

Same as Torres, 3 games. Bos was a straight red but only 1 game because it was a professional foul to stop progress/goalscoring rather than violent or dangerous.

"At least Torres scored a goal before he went stupid..."

Drogba and Anelka won't be going anywhere this season. If Torres can stay healthy, he'll be the #1 CF with DD and Nico rotating the lesser games. After the season though, I would expect both DD and Nico to go. AVB has already said Nico doesn't want to renew his contract. He's likely looking for one more big payday that Chelsea won't pay but a club in Russia, the Middle East or the MLS will. Drogba shouldn't be renewed at age 34. If Chelsea's going to pay a 2nd striker 150K a week, they may as well do so for a young and upcoming striker in his early twenties who will compete with/rotate with Torres. Lukaku is at least 2 or 3 years away from being world class (if he ever gets there). I think a Plan B of going with Sturridge as the 2nd CF next season wouldn't be bad either. It's his preferred position. And with his ability to play on the right, he'll have enough games from either position to make him happy. Chelsea can then invest in proper wide players. With two new ones plus Mata and Sturridge, Chelsea would have enough to cover left/right of the front 3. Torres, Sturridge and Lukaku for the CF.

Why are some people so intent on proving that Torres' bad patch was down to himself only? I can cover up my good eye, watch a Chelsea game with my bad eye and still see that the club's football isn't the same as it was 6 months ago. This is easily discernible to anyone who has watched the last few Chelsea games. Hell, think of how much Chelsea's game has progressed in nine weeks. Remember the games in August? Of course it's changed and it has helped Torres. And yes, Torres has helped Torres too.

Two studs up and it's a red card. But it's clear Torres wasn't being malicious. Carragher routinely slides in with more intent and the results are far worse and he usually ends up with a yellow. He's just more experienced in disguising the tackle. Torres being a forward was just clumsy. Is it fair he goes off and misses 3 games while Carragher gets away with murder? No. But that's football for you. Torres needs to learn to be more clever and tackle more cynically I suppose. Torres had a running dialogue with Dean throughout the first half and I'm sure that played into the decision. It was clear Dean was annoyed with Torres.

Yeah, Americans say cleats for any footwear that have spikes/studs in them. American footballers and baseball players wear cleats. I do try to remind myself that the natural parlance in world football is 'boots'.

He would be starting for any other team I suppose.

And I remember he was the best striker on the pitch even though Pele was there, along with wonderboy Chicharito. And last year's golden boot, Berbatov even made an appearance.