venom2011

What? Oh no, we dominated Man Utd and they only profited through individual error and profligacy. Subs were a little late, sure, but Tuchel is the last person I'll blame as he's wholly responsible for me enjoying our football more than I've done for a decade. And I'm not saying he's beyond criticism, but you criticise your manager when he makes a decision that severely hampers your chances to win a game (a la Pep in the CL final). He gave the players on the pitch every chance to win today - they couldn't do it, so we learn and move on.

It's kind of like footballers, no? Sometimes you need the right conditions and timing to see them reach their potential. We may not have seen this had he skipped the PSG experience.

It would be in the realm. Vvd, De Ligt, Marquinhos are all up there. That's the kind of wages you pay a great defender, in their prime, who also happens to be your club captain. We recently conceded against Burnley because he fell asleep at the back and never pushed up with the line. No way is he worth that money.

So he wants more than Virgil Van Dijk... Thanks for the memories Toni.

It's indicative of why he'll never reach the heights expected of him. When the time comes to make that good decision and/or be clinical, he fails the test far too often. You swap him out for any good attacking midfielder and that is put on a plate for CHO 9/10. He had two chances to play him in but ended up carrying the ball to the 18 yard - then playing to the right channel. He never once took any stock of CHOs run and firmly kept his gaze on Havertz. And what will always be frustrating is that he has the ability, as much as anyone, to play the perfect ball in this scenario. I still like the idea of keeping him around the squad though.

Bit tough that as he was always a punt. But with injuries and inconsistent game time I wouldn't be too harsh on him. I think he's fine and a very good bench option. That being said, if we get a decent offer I wouldn't be sad to see him go.

Really enjoyed that. A proper cup tie and we played well for large parts considering the changes. Also love the way we've started the last 3.

Started the last 2 with real purpose. You can just see he's drilling the whole squad into a higher tempo style of play. He knows we've been flat this season even while getting results but now is the perfect time to go up a gear. Two moments I loved, early against Malmo he shouted at Chilwell for not being progressive with the ball and running away from goal. Today it was Odoi, who made some wrong decisions off the ball in attack. What a manager.

Liverpool have played both us and City, in a formation that some, for whatever reason, want to see us play because somehow that will magically change the form of our attackers. They have better creators and attackers. And yet, were outplayed in both big games, one of which was against 10 men. We became European champions by playing a formation and style catering to our strengths, not our weaknesses. Every tactic gets figured out. It's not some mysterious conundrum. Teams figured out Pep's Barca but could do little to stop them. And our chosen plan B so far seems to be the 352 - that needs time and fit personnel to develop.

The point is not that we wouldn't be reasonably solid, but that we would certainly be less solid for a miniscule gain - if any, going forward. Sarri also had the benefit of having peak Kante in the midfield and a younger Azpi in defense. Willian was also the best defensive winger in the league. James is not Azpi and no one touches Kante. Agreed on the wingbacks although James is fine there. Hakimi would have been ideal. At the end of the day regarding the current title challengers, I'd rather be 1st in defense and 4th in attack than 3rd in both. Only one of those options can possibly result in a league win.

I could do regular match compilations showing that point 1 happens often enough and not only during transition phases. But because of point 2, it's all for nothing. For instance, I rewatched the Tottenham match specifically looking at the runs from Lukaku et al. and the number of ignored runs is quite staggering still - as you allude to in your Alonso and Hakim bit. It always reminds me of when just Torres arrived, regularly making great runs, and having Malouda and Kalou behind him.

That's not correct in the slightest. It's painfully obvious that the energy levels have been lacking in some matches recently and key players are dallying on the ball and taking too many touches - confidence levels are also a little low. When/if that happens the tactical side becomes irrelevant. Again, it's always great to make an argument for something we've yet to see and then make sweeping statements like 'there is no reason why it shouldn't work'. PSG defended okay, but it wasn't near our performances when we are on song. And as I've said, they have players suited to a 4. PSG have Marquinhos, Kimpembe, Hakimi and Mendes - all of them athletic and suited to a four. Then they had 3 defensive midfielders in front of them. City still dominated the match in possession and quality+quantity of chances (1.97xG to PSG's 0.48). But let's play the hypothetical 4 at the back game: Chilwell, James, Rudiger, Christensen/Silva. Compare that to: Trent, Matip, Van Dyk and Robertson Cancelo, Laporte, Dias, Walker Shaw, McGuire, Varane, AWB So we've moved from having the best defense to being 3rd/4th in a four. Also can't play Jorginho regularly without being smashed on the counter. And the point of this is to bring in another attacker, so for comparison again (2-man mid for simplicity): Havertz, Mount, Ziyech/Werner Sancho/Rashford, Fernandes, Greenwood Grealish, KDB, Bernardo Silva Mane, Salah, Elliot/Jones Again we are 3rd/4th at best and it looks even worse if we control for a 3-man midfield instead. I also prefer the 4-3-3 but I don't want (or expect) Tuchel to change it with the current personnel and when the current individual issues exist.

Haha that's always the case. Hypothetical formation changes also do wonders for player form and ability.

PSG never comfortably beat Man City. I'm not sure how you can say that if you watched the match. And they won with very similar metrics (almost exactly) to how we beat City in the CL final - so in what way were they more offensive than us with 5 at the back in the final? The difference in system is almost irrelevant compared to the fact that we simply have too many key players going through a rough patch. You say Werner, Lukaku and Havertz are capable of destroying teams on the counter as if Werner and Havertz are magically going to perform better. Werner has already had multiple opportunities to be effective on the counter and has fluffed every single one through bad technique or decision-making. PSG can play with 4 because it suits their best players. Our best and most consistent players are Mendy, Silva, Jorginho, Christensen, Rudiger, Kante, Azpi and Kova. 5 at the back suits the majority of them.

The first thing I'll say is that everything looks worse when key players are lacking confidence and are ponderous on the ball. Many of them started the season that way so I hope he sticks to the system for these reasons: If you play 4 at the back, Alonso, Azpi, Jorginho and Silva are automatically way more exposed and can become liabilities for their lack of pace. Pep and Klopp took years and got the players they wanted to make it work. Tuchel has gotten.... Lukaku. It's also why I think we went for Kounde, so that it would be a more viable option. Pep and Klopp also have better quality attackers in their starting 11s. In essence you would be moving a defensive player from our strongest area on the pitch and adding an attacker which is decidedly our weakest area. What's the point of adding another player who is just going to ignore runs and lack precision in the final third at the risk of conceding a lot more? If we had the players to mitigate the risk then by all means. We won the CL and are a point off the top of the log after having the toughest run of opening fixtures. Now is not the time to lose faith and I certainly would rather have the structural support to carry Jorginho, Azpi and Silva.

You always wonder if people actually watch the game before speaking and then occasionally you get some hard evidence... Anyhoo, Lukaku was far from a big issue yesterday. You could have had prime Ronaldo Nazario upfront and it would have made little difference. I think Tuchel learned quite a bit from the defeat which is good. With the 352 it worked against a gassed Tottenham. But it requires Alonso, Azpi, Kante, Kovacic and Werner to be the major players in transition and escaping the press. Only one of those is any good on the ball - which is a problem against an impeccable press. Also, Silva at a point shouted at Andreas because he was playing simple passes backward to Mendy instead of to him, so he can release Azpi. This - no risk football- has slowly crept into our game recently and the guilty parties need sorting out.

My exact thought 20 minutes in. I think the club would have almost no concerns if we challenged well and fell short. But a few performances like that will see a manager gone regardless.

'He' did not have us playing with fear. And I doubt he purposefully set us up that defensively. No one had any issues with this formation and midfield in the 2nd half vs Tottenham. No one had any issues with the team before the match started. Given the poor performances of Havertz and Ziyech, the injuries to Mount and Pulisic, he took a small risk and the players were poor. The only decision I have any issue with is playing Alonso. I hate losing, especially when we could have set down a real marker. But we were due, given that too many of the players have been poor for periods of recent games. Best to get the wake up call now.

Edit - agree with this Genuine question though - From the main camera angles and after seeing numerous slow-mos, James only touched the ball once - the ricochet off the thigh. His arm then makes a weird movement without contact, which is no infringement. Surely this means there should not even be the possibility of a red? (Assuming a competent and unbiased ref)

I saw him making a couple of useful 'contributions' during defensive corners, but not necessarily the one who cleared though. Werner doesn't run anyone tired in a 10v12, against such experienced CBs. With a bit of luck we could have scored twice in the 2nd and that would have been down to Lukaku. Let's also not forget that TT needs to see what Lukaku offers during these situations. In a few months he should have a good idea as to our best combinations etc.

Solid performance in difficult circumstances. This stuff needs sorting out though. Just about every attacker was guilty last season of poor decision-making in these moments and if we are to seriously challenge then we can't have 2-3 of these moments every match.

My theory on that is - so fans and pundits always talk of the new manager bounce, yes? Well I believe similar can happen with old managers. Under Sarri (and I actually enjoyed his tenure mostly) we dominated some games against Pool and City for the first time in what felt like forever. The midfield of Kova, Jorgi and Kante - although without any real attacking threat - was quite impressive under him. We lacked goals and decisiveness though - seems familiar... He changed Kante's role and developed the Kova-Jorgi partnership that bore fruits in Lamps' first season. Not to mention that the team ended Sarri's season in form and playing some good stuff. Over the course of the next 18 months we essentially witnessed the de-evolution of those roles and sub-systems. And that was only exacerbated by the fact that Lamps disregarded some key senior players. You can see under Tuchel how you can take say Azpi out and replace him with James at RCB or James out and replace him with Odoi at WB - and very little changes because of how good Tuchel is with his tactical training. In those winter months you speak of, we ended with Kante as the lone 6 and not knowing what the hell he was doing, and the two 8s looking like they barely understood football.

Amps, Gallagher, Guehi, Broja will all be looked at during preseason. So exciting to see the amount of talent just waiting to break through. I would prefer if they hold on to Gallagher and send Billy on loan for some consistent game time.

It should be and most likely would be because as much I didn't want Lampard sacked, he had more than a few things going against him. 1. He showed patches of real tactical naivety (acceptable in isolation given his inexperience). 2. He cast out more than a few senior players, the players you need on your side when youngsters and new signings invariably have their dips. Just imagine that CL final without Rudiger and Azpi. 3. Word got around that the tactical side of training was severely lacking compared to past managers. In hindsight, I have no issue with management looking at this picture holistically and thinking the best way forward was to replace him. If it was simply a matter of results, I think they would have stuck with Frank a little longer.

Why should they have done way better? Werner, Havertz (21), Ziyech - first year in the PL, with no pre-season. All three struggled with the physicality and only now am I seeing actual improvement in that area from Werner and Havertz. Mount (22), Pulisic (22), Odoi (20), Tammy - All young and second season in the league. I've made this point before but going through the top 5: City - Aguero, Sterling, Mahrez, Silva, Jesus - All with good experience in the PL, backed up by Foden and Torres Man Utd - Rashford, Martial, Silva, Cavani, Mata - A mixture of good overall experience and PL experience. Liverpool - Mane, Salah, Firmino, Jota, Origi - A mixture of great overall experience and PL experience Leicester - Ineacho, Vardy, Perez - A mixture of good overall experience and PL experience. And it goes the same for Tottenham and Arsenal (Kane, Son, Bale, Auba, Lacezette, Willian ). Our attack, although very talented, is quite far off the necessary quality and experience to challenge for the title (compared to the other teams). If we had five 22-year old Hazards it would be the exact same thing. Our attack is filled with players who should be in supporting roles for a title-challenging team, not because of a lack of talent but their lack of experience. And Mount would never have made 72 appearances over the last two seasons for City or Liverpool. As you say, the attackers have looked good in flashes, but not consistently - this is what we should have expected.