22 hours ago, coco said:

But but but United earn their money so it's ok right guys? Guys?

13 hours ago, big blue said:

I agree that was our strongest 11. The 4 players you mentioned we can build off Courtois, Kante, Hazard, and Morata, 3 were here last season, and Morata for Costa is more like for like than anything. 

Like you said building a team a capable of winning the champions league takes time, but I dont think we made progress towards it this summer. 

There is potential there definately, but I would have liked to have seen a couple more ballack or cole type signings to really kick us on. 

The fact we struggled to attract that level of player is worrying, considering we were heading into the summer in a very strong position, both from a sporting aspect due to winning the league, and a financial aspect with extra sponsorship and prize money, and also a reduced wage bill, and money from player sales like oscar. 

So I can't really say it was a good window as I think we were in a position to take a leap forward, rather than a baby step. 

It hasn't been a disaster either, thanks to 2 deadline day deals, that have beefed up the squad, after some questionable player sales/loans, and a few high profile rejections. 

As long as Conte is in charge, and we have Hazard, I am pretty confident we can at least mount a decent challenge in the league, so I hoping for a decent season. 

Fair points. I mentioned those four players and true we may have done better. Sandro would have been a world class addition (I still like Alonso).

My overall point is that it'll take time and given the current trend in price a little bit of opportunism. This window was insane and there were few players who were close to the end of their deal or who had reasonable release clauses. 

For me next summer is big. We will have Fab, Luiz, Cahill and Pedro all with only a year left and all over 30. For me how we manage that and who we replace them with will have a big bearing on Antonio's four year plan. It'll also I think play a big role in how long we keep Hazard and Courtois.

I think we need to be clever in the way we approach this market. You look at Juventus' approach under Marotta, that is the one to follow IMO. They got Vidal, Pirlo, Tevez, Barzagli, Llorente and Bonucci for virtually nothing because they picked the right moment. We should be doing  the same.

6 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

Fair points. I mentioned those four players and true we may have done better. Sandro would have been a world class addition (I still like Alonso).

My overall point is that it'll take time and given the current trend in price a little bit of opportunism. This window was insane and there were few players who were close to the end of their deal or who had reasonable release clauses. 

For me next summer is big. We will have Fab, Luiz, Cahill and Pedro all with only a year left and all over 30. For me how we manage that and who we replace them with will have a big bearing on Antonio's four year plan. It'll also I think play a big role in how long we keep Hazard and Courtois.

I think we need to be clever in the way we approach this market. You look at Juventus' approach under Marotta, that is the one to follow IMO. They got Vidal, Pirlo, Tevez, Barzagli, Llorente and Bonucci for virtually nothing because they picked the right moment. We should be doing  the same.

Juve have largely been vindicated by their success, although it does make you wonder what they would achieve if they still had Conte instead of Allegri at the helm.

Bayern is another good example, picking up Ribery and Robben for a relative song and using that success to springboard their future big spending. Real Madrid desperately needed David De Gea in 2015, completely messed that transfer up, yet won the Champions League anyway. 

Contrast this to City, United and to a lesser extent Barcelona and PSG who have had relatively meagre gains from their extravagant spending. 

To me most of the fan frustration was that the club appear unwilling to overpay for players who are essentially squad options. I agree with the club's stance on this, and our money and efforts must continue to be reserved for the Moratas and Rudigers on the target list instead of chasing backups.
 

 

5 hours ago, SydneyChelsea said:

Juve have largely been vindicated by their success, although it does make you wonder what they would achieve if they still had Conte instead of Allegri at the helm.

Bayern is another good example, picking up Ribery and Robben for a relative song and using that success to springboard their future big spending. Real Madrid desperately needed David De Gea in 2015, completely messed that transfer up, yet won the Champions League anyway. 

Contrast this to City, United and to a lesser extent Barcelona and PSG who have had relatively meagre gains from their extravagant spending. 

To me most of the fan frustration was that the club appear unwilling to overpay for players who are essentially squad options. I agree with the club's stance on this, and our money and efforts must continue to be reserved for the Moratas and Rudigers on the target list instead of chasing backups.
 

 

Agree Zidanes y Pavons should be our approach. Beyond that we should be smart and pick our moment to sign value certainly not 40m crocked midfielders who don't fit into our system.

Edited September 8, 20178 yr by Spiller86

It`s fun again to see how some guys don`t let other speak their opinion, and when they say something , they start attacking them at once and put 10 replies in 1 page ...

If you make a thread, can others say what they think freely or not ? Whether is it positive or not, is it right or not.

Some people change their opinion in a nick of time.

When the windows open, most of the guys here was calling we should bid 100-150m. for Mbappe, that we should go for Sanchez or Bale.
And in the end Barkley and Chamberlane refuses us .... Totenham and Liverpool beat us on the market .... And of course before that City and United did it .... Thats speaks a lot for our board and what work they did.

It`s speak a lot how we missed Lukaku, Sandro, Danilo and Walker.

And before someone say it`s media and we can`t be sure, there was official last minute bid for Lukaku and Walker, and Conte admited for Walker and Danilo.
They spend all summer chasing Sandro and in the end didn`t take a upgrade or alternative to Alonso, and we will have to use Azpi or Zappacosta both usually RB with right foot.

And just because one time works with Moses and Alonso, that doesn`t mean will work everytime. Same goes for Luiz last minute transfer. Most of the time you will fail short and will get players with quality like Baba and Djidjibodji.

If they was working fast, and give the money Juventus wanted at first, we may have ended with Sandro. But after Bonucci leave, we have exactly zero chances, but the ***** board was still chasing him .....And the Neymar transfer up the prices 2x time.

If we was acting fast, for 35m. we would have a lot better player then Drinkwater and Zappacosta, and probably for a lot better prices.

Also it`s obvious Conte was unhappy with the window. And if he leave in the end of the season, then the board messed big big time.

We was in the best position to land top targets, they failed again.

Now we got to pray Conte do his magic once again, or we will fail short both in CL and PL. And i don`t think we have good enough squad, for PL, neither for CL.

This is a marathon discipline, and we are short in numbers and quality.

Last year arround we have more players and for me stronger squad.
I also think guys like Alonso and Moses and even Pedro played above their levels and their season won`t be as good as last one. We already see the best from Pedro. Idiotical red card against Arsenal, that already cost us 1 title.

In the begining of the windows, Conte wanted 2 things, to add quality and numbers. We failed in both areas.
For me to add quality means if we was able to get Sandro/Mendy or Walker. That would be upgrade over our WB. Also our CB are not good enough. We concede goals after goals, after our 13 games winning streak and our defence was not good enough. Cahill not good enough and it`s shows in the first match, where we lose it because of him, and that is once again. Last season completely by himself he lose us 2 or 3 games, with such idiotic mistake.

Yeah he score some important goals, but he is no where near the top defender to me.

And so far Rudiger and Christensen didn`t show me they are good enough or upgrade to anyone in our defence, which need to be better.

Sanchez would be upgrade over Pedro/Willy and to me both of them are not good enough and not top players. My opinion. We can speak about that again in the end of the season.

Upgrade would be if we get Bakayoko, but let Matic stay. Cause Conte would have good CM to choice from. He say it by himself. He wanted to use Matic, and let Bakayoko be 100% fit for the games and after them to use him.

Now we are the only TOP TEAM IN THE WHOLE WORLD, that have only 4 midfielder. Just show me 1 other team so short on midfielder. And the idiotic board let that important position to be decided by last minute and give 35m. for a completely average player like Drinkwater. If someone mention his name before the windows open, all people here would have laughed hard.

So what we did is we change Matic with Bakayoko, i don`t see how we add quality yet, its early to say, neither we add numbers and give a Conte choice to use this or this player.

For god sake he can`t even rotate properly or use other formation, because of how short we are.

We failed to land Llorente, player Conte wanted, and would give us a different striker type, and allow us to play with 2 strikers up front with different formation. Board take that away from Conte as well.

So Conte have a lot less option now and his trump card will be a lot less, thanks to our s*** board.
You can put the sum we give for new players, as much as you want, but it doesn`t matter if they are not first, second or even third Conte choices. And when from winter till now, you get more money for outgoing players, then you give for new arrivals ...

And both of our rivals strengthen their squad better then us.

Of course it`s up to their managers to get the results.

My assessment on the windows is completely average. Not a disaster, but not good enough for a team that want to challenge for the title and CL football. Our board always have high demands, but if you have high demands, you should also give high.

To me if we failed in the end of the season, the guilty one, won`t be the manager, excuse me the Coach, but the board.

IF Conte decide to leave in the end of the campaing or earlier, it`s board failed and it`s because how they messed in the windows.

To me we failed to add needed quality to move to the next level, as well as failed to add numbers. Our squad is even thiner then last year, and we have CL this time arround.

We can`t even make 11 reserve for a Cup games and give all the starters a rest, thats speak a lot how short our squad is.

Conte choices are pretty much cut, he don`t have options, can`t change formation if he decides, and can`t rotate the squad properly.

Thats my opinion, and no one will change it. We will talk at the end of the season and see who is right and who is not. Won`t reply to anyone, cause i already say it, thats my opinion.

 

 

40 minutes ago, brakeit said:

It`s fun again to see how some guys don`t let other speak their opinion, and when they say something , they start attacking them at once and put 10 replies in 1 page ...

If you make a thread, can others say what they think freely or not ? Whether is it positive or not, is it right or not.

Some people change their opinion in a nick of time.

When the windows open, most of the guys here was calling we should bid 100-150m. for Mbappe, that we should go for Sanchez or Bale.
And in the end Barkley and Chamberlane refuses us .... Totenham and Liverpool beat us on the market .... And of course before that City and United did it .... Thats speaks a lot for our board and what work they did.

It`s speak a lot how we missed Lukaku, Sandro, Danilo and Walker.

And before someone say it`s media and we can`t be sure, there was official last minute bid for Lukaku and Walker, and Conte admited for Walker and Danilo.
They spend all summer chasing Sandro and in the end didn`t take a upgrade or alternative to Alonso, and we will have to use Azpi or Zappacosta both usually RB with right foot.

And just because one time works with Moses and Alonso, that doesn`t mean will work everytime. Same goes for Luiz last minute transfer. Most of the time you will fail short and will get players with quality like Baba and Djidjibodji.

If they was working fast, and give the money Juventus wanted at first, we may have ended with Sandro. But after Bonucci leave, we have exactly zero chances, but the ***** board was still chasing him .....And the Neymar transfer up the prices 2x time.

If we was acting fast, for 35m. we would have a lot better player then Drinkwater and Zappacosta, and probably for a lot better prices.

Also it`s obvious Conte was unhappy with the window. And if he leave in the end of the season, then the board messed big big time.

We was in the best position to land top targets, they failed again.

Now we got to pray Conte do his magic once again, or we will fail short both in CL and PL. And i don`t think we have good enough squad, for PL, neither for CL.

This is a marathon discipline, and we are short in numbers and quality.

Last year arround we have more players and for me stronger squad.
I also think guys like Alonso and Moses and even Pedro played above their levels and their season won`t be as good as last one. We already see the best from Pedro. Idiotical red card against Arsenal, that already cost us 1 title.

In the begining of the windows, Conte wanted 2 things, to add quality and numbers. We failed in both areas.
For me to add quality means if we was able to get Sandro/Mendy or Walker. That would be upgrade over our WB. Also our CB are not good enough. We concede goals after goals, after our 13 games winning streak and our defence was not good enough. Cahill not good enough and it`s shows in the first match, where we lose it because of him, and that is once again. Last season completely by himself he lose us 2 or 3 games, with such idiotic mistake.

Yeah he score some important goals, but he is no where near the top defender to me.

And so far Rudiger and Christensen didn`t show me they are good enough or upgrade to anyone in our defence, which need to be better.

Sanchez would be upgrade over Pedro/Willy and to me both of them are not good enough and not top players. My opinion. We can speak about that again in the end of the season.

Upgrade would be if we get Bakayoko, but let Matic stay. Cause Conte would have good CM to choice from. He say it by himself. He wanted to use Matic, and let Bakayoko be 100% fit for the games and after them to use him.

Now we are the only TOP TEAM IN THE WHOLE WORLD, that have only 4 midfielder. Just show me 1 other team so short on midfielder. And the idiotic board let that important position to be decided by last minute and give 35m. for a completely average player like Drinkwater. If someone mention his name before the windows open, all people here would have laughed hard.

So what we did is we change Matic with Bakayoko, i don`t see how we add quality yet, its early to say, neither we add numbers and give a Conte choice to use this or this player.

For god sake he can`t even rotate properly or use other formation, because of how short we are.

We failed to land Llorente, player Conte wanted, and would give us a different striker type, and allow us to play with 2 strikers up front with different formation. Board take that away from Conte as well.

So Conte have a lot less option now and his trump card will be a lot less, thanks to our s*** board.
You can put the sum we give for new players, as much as you want, but it doesn`t matter if they are not first, second or even third Conte choices. And when from winter till now, you get more money for outgoing players, then you give for new arrivals ...

And both of our rivals strengthen their squad better then us.

Of course it`s up to their managers to get the results.

My assessment on the windows is completely average. Not a disaster, but not good enough for a team that want to challenge for the title and CL football. Our board always have high demands, but if you have high demands, you should also give high.

To me if we failed in the end of the season, the guilty one, won`t be the manager, excuse me the Coach, but the board.

IF Conte decide to leave in the end of the campaing or earlier, it`s board failed and it`s because how they messed in the windows.

To me we failed to add needed quality to move to the next level, as well as failed to add numbers. Our squad is even thiner then last year, and we have CL this time arround.

We can`t even make 11 reserve for a Cup games and give all the starters a rest, thats speak a lot how short our squad is.

Conte choices are pretty much cut, he don`t have options, can`t change formation if he decides, and can`t rotate the squad properly.

Thats my opinion, and no one will change it. We will talk at the end of the season and see who is right and who is not. Won`t reply to anyone, cause i already say it, thats my opinion.

I won't bother you about your opinion as you mind is clearly set but I will say that I think there is a lot of flaws to your argument and you seem to have massively overestimate and praise opposing transfers and massively underestimate the ability of the payers we have signed, our squad in general and the difficulty of the window as a whole, but each to their own.   

And that you still haven't put your money where your mouth is, following our previous conversation on the matter.

If our window was as bad as you think we won't be able to compete with the Manc clubs and we won't get very far in the CL, so how about this;
If we finish within 5 points of 1st in the league or get to the final of the Champions League you have to donate £50 to the forum
and if we finish outside of the top 3 or Conte gets sacked I will donate £50 to the forum.

If you would like to amend the bet at all I am open to changes, I just don't think that deep down you believe we are in as bad a shape as you are making out.

To be fair the important position is first or top 4. To be second is the worst in my opinion.

Thats my opinion. If you are not okay with it, i don`t care. It`s not my problem.
But you should start respect the opnion of the others, that are different to yours.

I`m okay with your opinion and get your point, but i don`t agree.

I`m not a gambling type and i don`t bet.

But if we finish first or we did very well and Conte stay for atleast another season. I will come here and say i was wrong. I can do that easily and i will be happy to do it, if that mean we have a good season and Conte stay.

I`m just tired of all that manager changes we are doing. Thats all.

 

 

20 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

You look at Juventus' approach under Marotta, that is the one to follow IMO. They got Vidal, Pirlo, Tevez, Barzagli, Llorente and Bonucci for virtually nothing because they picked the right moment. We should be doing  the same.

I disagree, Juve got them for nothing and they sold them for nothing and crippled their squad whilst they were winning.

Their scouting team may be good but all of those players benefitted from Conte's coaching. Bonucci was considered the worst buy and was consistently slated until Conte, Vidal was just above average at best until 2010-11 and was average at first for Juventuz, Pirlo was considered past it then and Tevez wanted out of that City team as he went AWOL playing golf in Argentina.

Had we bought them then, the posters that wanted Marina out now would have come with torches and pitchforks. Those players improved during their time with Conte and raised their profiles.

Also to date, if some thought selling Matic to Utd was bad. Marotta sold Vidal and let Pirlo go to the US in the same window whilst knowing Marchisio was injury prone. Then he sold Pogba the next year and this year he sold Bonucci to their old time rivals and let Alves go to PSG for free. 

He brought in Higuain, Dybala, Sandro and Pjanic but that team was constantly dismantled every window and people thought Marina was bad. 

4 hours ago, Deino said:

I disagree, Juve got them for nothing and they sold them for nothing and crippled their squad whilst they were winning.

Their scouting team may be good but all of those players benefitted from Conte's coaching. Bonucci was considered the worst buy and was consistently slated until Conte, Vidal was just above average at best until 2010-11 and was average at first for Juventuz, Pirlo was considered past it then and Tevez wanted out of that City team as he went AWOL playing golf in Argentina.

Had we bought them then, the posters that wanted Marina out now would have come with torches and pitchforks. Those players improved during their time with Conte and raised their profiles.

Also to date, if some thought selling Matic to Utd was bad. Marotta sold Vidal and let Pirlo go to the US in the same window whilst knowing Marchisio was injury prone. Then he sold Pogba the next year and this year he sold Bonucci to their old time rivals and let Alves go to PSG for free. 

He brought in Higuain, Dybala, Sandro and Pjanic but that team was constantly dismantled every window and people thought Marina was bad. 

I understand your point but my thought wasn't really around sales it was more about their very pragmatic and opportunistic approach to the market.

On the back of that they've won every Serie A since under two different managers and have made the CL final twice, once after all those sales you mentioned. 

Conte (and Allegri) made an impact but the foundation was in the clever use of the market to get good players cheaply (as it was for Bayern also as SC mentioned)

This should be our approach too.

8 hours ago, Spiller86 said:

I understand your point but my thought wasn't really around sales it was more about their very pragmatic and opportunistic approach to the market.

On the back of that they've won every Serie A since under two different managers and have made the CL final twice, once after all those sales you mentioned. 

Conte (and Allegri) made an impact but the foundation was in the clever use of the market to get good players cheaply (as it was for Bayern also as SC mentioned)

This should be our approach too.

If what you meant is a pragmatic and opportunistic approach, then I wholeheartedly agree and actually, Chelsea is sort of following this model.

We may not get our 1st choices but arguably our 2nd choices were more pragmatic than our 1st choice targets. Each fills a position that's required, adequate playing experience at the top level, a majority have the experience of winning a league title, each provides a different option to the team, all are at a good age for the position that they'll fill, relatively decent transfer fees and wages. How do you get more pragmatic than that?