You talking about the 2006/07 season? That's a very poor example without looking at the season as a whole.

How isit a poor example? We were champions and spent £50m. United only signed Carrick and won it. By your logic they didn't show enough ambition in the transfer window yet they still came out on top.

You're going to have to show me the figures you're working from and what year. In both 06/07 and 07/08 I have United outspending both in gross and net terms.

Who is everyone? Again you're pinning this on Jose and saying we were good enough to retain? Really?

Tell me the one signing to make us better. Tell me the one action this club took to go further in Europe. The best you can say is that we stagnated and that's if you take players purely on their technical ability and not on their character. How many European Finals did we lose from that squad? How many league Championship medals?

Who was the one guy who walked into Cobham that made everyone turn to one another and say 'this is the guy'? No-one.

I was going by 2006/07.

By everyone I mean fans and pundits alike. The majority anyway. If you're so focussed on gross and net spend, half the teams above us are below on that count .

If people are saying Delph and Sterling improved City, then the same can be applied to Pedro.

Looks whatever you say can't be used as an excuse for our league standing in November.

I was going by 2006/07.

By everyone I mean fans and pundits alike. The majority anyway. If you're so focussed on gross and net spend, half the teams above us are below on that count .

If people are saying Delph and Sterling improved City, then the same can be applied to Pedro.

Looks whatever you say can't be used as an excuse for our league standing in November.

 

Otamendi and De Bruyne?

 

Again, you're focussing entirely on what the result of a lack of ambition was rather than the actual point that this club showed no ambition to improve the squad, to go further, to reach higher. You want to pin it all on Jose and I totally understand why. Jose's gone, that means everything will suddenly get better.

 

But this isn't the first time this has happened and when something happens over and over again you need to look at the constants - the people running the club. If that doesn't change then the end results don't change.

Otamendi and De Bruyne?

Again, you're focussing entirely on what the result of a lack of ambition was rather than the actual point that this club showed no ambition to improve the squad, to go further, to reach higher. You want to pin it all on Jose and I totally understand why. Jose's gone, that means everything will suddenly get better.

But this isn't the first time this has happened and when something happens over and over again you need to look at the constants - the people running the club. If that doesn't change then the end results don't change.

Mate you're missing the point. It seems like your focussing on the result as you have no idea that the board didn't try to sign a Pogba or a Griezmann. Just because they didn't sign you want to pin it on the board.

Jose has gone and things have gotten better yes. Not better as we would like such as top 4 but better nonetheless. Results have improved, we are in the top 10 and there is more harmony in the camp. It just shows how much Jose seriously messed up that us being better is to sit in 10th.

Mate you're missing the point. It seems like your focussing on the result as you have no idea that the board didn't try to sign a Pogba or a Griezmann. Just because they didn't sign you want to pin it on the board.

Jose has gone and things have gotten better yes. Not better as we would like such as top 4 but better nonetheless. Results have improved, we are in the top 10 and there is more harmony in the camp. It just shows how much Jose seriously messed up that us being better is to sit in 10th.

 

So I'm missing the point because I'm judging the board on the results that the board achieved in the Summer? You think I should judge them on what exactly?

 

Look, I'm happy that you're happy that things are improving and that we're unbeaten in however many games it is but what's important for me is the future of this club and that isn't Remy or Oscar anymore. It's Traore and Loftus-Cheek and Hiddink isn't doing anything to help those guys when he's not playing them.

 

What we're doing right now is consolidating mid-table and that's a continuation of the lack of ambition we showed last summer. That's not good for any club with aspirations of greatness and I'm shocked that people are defending it.

How isit a poor example? We were champions and spent £50m. United only signed Carrick and won it. By your logic they didn't show enough ambition in the transfer window yet they still came out on top.

Right here we go, you obviously don't remember that season well and are just looking at money spent and the end results.

Cech at his peak was out for 3 months

Terry and Carvalho was out a lot. Against Liverpool we had Ferreari and Essien at CB. Other injuries like Robben.

Buying Romans best mate was the worst thing Chelsea could do. They had walked 2 premier league titles playing 433 and breaking records and signing Sheva changed the formation and position of players like Lampard. Playing 2 up front made Chelsea a worst team. Was that the season Mourinho asked for a CB in Janaury because of the injury crises but got nothing from the board.

That's looking at the bigger picture than going Chelsea signed Sheva and lost the league.

Otamendi and De Bruyne?

 

Again, you're focussing entirely on what the result of a lack of ambition was rather than the actual point that this club showed no ambition to improve the squad, to go further, to reach higher. You want to pin it all on Jose and I totally understand why. Jose's gone, that means everything will suddenly get better.

 

But this isn't the first time this has happened and when something happens over and over again you need to look at the constants - the people running the club. If that doesn't change then the end results don't change.

Exactly, it's not about the end result. City board showed ambition, they went out and paid the money which was required to get the players they wanted to improve the squad.

Liverpool did the same really, it doesn't matter that Benteke hasn't scored many. There forward line is Sturridge, Benteke, Origi, Ings, Firminio.

It's weird people blame Mourinho fully but the board was ok. Then blame the City board but not there manager.

Right here we go, you obviously don't remember that season well and are just looking at money spent and the end results.

Cech at his peak was out for 3 months

Terry and Carvalho was out a lot. Against Liverpool we had Ferreari and Essien at CB. Other injuries like Robben.

Buying Romans best mate was the worst thing Chelsea could do. They had walked 2 premier league titles playing 433 and breaking records and signing Sheva changed the formation and position of players like Lampard. Playing 2 up front made Chelsea a worst team. Was that the season Mourinho asked for a CB in Janaury because of the injury crises but got nothing from the board.

That's looking at the bigger picture than going Chelsea signed Sheva and lost the league.

 

We lost gallas but gained ashley cole & freebie ballack.. We didn't really play 2 up front, however having both sheva & ballack did break the 'happy' family & formation to some certain extent, well according to makelele at least.. 

 

MU's 3 consecutive triumph had a lot to do with our self destruct but I finally come to term that injury, transfer mistake, rather disjointed dressing room are part of the game.. 

I honesty think we stood still.

 

Luis is better than Baba I guess, but that's irrelevant as Luis got no game time anyway.

Cech is better than Bergovic, but Bergs didn't put a foot wrong behind an awful defence.

Drogs is better than Falcao but both were on their last legs.

Pedro I don't know who he replaced but he is an improvment to the squad.

 

Just because you spend it doesn't necessarily mean you improve. Yeah City have signed Bony, Delph, Sterling, Ottamendi and KDB in the last 14 months but only KDB has been a success. You could say that they have just wasted a shedload of money as opposed to improving their squad which is why they might not even finish in the top 4.

Luis irrelevant? How can that be so when we played Ivan through half a season of terrible form because we couldnt afford to put Dave at his natural position? If we had Luis instead of Baba, Ivanovic gets the bench.....that is very relevant.

Cech was also a part of the old guard and an important leader in the dessing room....something sorely lacking this season.....not to mention he also would of done better than Begovic and would of given us an option of a World Class keeper. I'd say important difference.

Pedro didnt replace anyone, unless you consider him a flop at which point he replaced Salah and/or Cuadrado. Lets not forget that he was bought after the season started,.... well, taken away from MUFC right under there nose..... shame he was thrown into the deep end, expected to solve all our attacking woes, without even the abysmal preseason thatoccured this summer.

Oh, and while Idont rate Sterling as all that, he would be the second most productive attacking player (behind Costa) if he were in our squad.....so I think you will have to re-evaluate wether he was a success or not or admit that our squad is nowhere near the level you seem to have them......because by your logic, this season the MCFC flop is head and shoulders above our alleged best player and almost everyone else in the squad.

Couldn't same logic be applied to Chelsea?

It could be....but ManCity has only had one manager with those players...and yet most players have 2 BPL medals.....weve had plenty of players who pre and post Mourinho, never look like lifting the title at CFC under numerous managers, let alone lifting numerous BPL tititles..... I guess thats why that logic is better suited to MCFC than Chelsea

as for Konakai, you say we have an ambitious owner? I would of agreed a few years ago but you cant not slap that label after the last few transfer windows. We know have a pragmatic owner. If we still had an ambitious owner I have no doubt Mourinho would right now, with an altered squad, be laughing at how easy this back to back title business is.

Mate you're missing the point. It seems like your focussing on the result as you have no idea that the board didn't try to sign a Pogba or a Griezmann. Just because they didn't sign you want to pin it on the board.

Jose has gone and things have gotten better yes. Not better as we would like such as top 4 but better nonetheless. Results have improved, we are in the top 10 and there is more harmony in the camp. It just shows how much Jose seriously messed up that us being better is to sit in 10th.

or it shows that we have a squad containing many players who were happy to throw away half a season before actually tyring to earn their paycheques.

If Mourinho was as much of the problem as you'd have us believe we'd be sitting in the top 4 right now.... or certainly atleast fighting for it

We lost gallas but gained ashley cole & freebie ballack.. We didn't really play 2 up front, however having both sheva & ballack did break the 'happy' family & formation to some certain extent, well according to makelele at least.. 

 

MU's 3 consecutive triumph had a lot to do with our self destruct but I finally come to term that injury, transfer mistake, rather disjointed dressing room are part of the game..

Of course there part of the game but they can decide a season. Chelsea's injury crises was awful that year, the formation and tactics did change for a ageing owners mate who has to play. That's the bigger picture of the season than just seeing the signings and thinking Utd beat Chelsea.

Luis irrelevant? How can that be so when we played Ivan through half a season of terrible form because we couldnt afford to put Dave at his natural position? If we had Luis instead of Baba, Ivanovic gets the bench.....that is very relevant.

Cech was also a part of the old guard and an important leader in the dessing room....something sorely lacking this season.....not to mention he also would of done better than Begovic and would of given us an option of a World Class keeper. I'd say important difference.

 

 

You're assuming jose would drop ivanovic which should pretty much kill off your luis argument imo... and considering how lowly he rated luis last season, it's a big big ask for your assumption to even have a chance..

 

As for cech, is he doing wonder at arsenal at the moment? hardly and begovic was hardly at fault for the goals conceded, I doubt cech would have done any better.. as for that 'leadership' attribute that have been talked and hyped so much, I just wonder what kind of leadership attribute is that? some kind of magic words? We got JT, I'm pretty sure he had already delivered that motivation speech and rallied the team as much as he could this season and it didn't seem to work so if he failed, I doubt somebody else can succeed.. Unless, you going with another assumption that an echo from cech would do the trick.. 

You're assuming jose would drop ivanovic which should pretty much kill off your luis argument imo... and considering how lowly he rated luis last season, it's a big big ask for your assumption to even have a chance..

 

As for cech, is he doing wonder at arsenal at the moment? hardly and begovic was hardly at fault for the goals conceded, I doubt cech would have done any better.. as for that 'leadership' attribute that have been talked and hyped so much, I just wonder what kind of leadership attribute is that? some kind of magic words? We got JT, I'm pretty sure he had already delivered that motivation speech and rallied the team as much as he could this season and it didn't seem to work so if he failed, I doubt somebody else can succeed.. Unless, you going with another assumption that an echo from cech would do the trick.. 

 

Go and watch the 2012 Champions League when the leadership in the team carried a flawed team to the biggest moment in this club's history.

You're assuming jose would drop ivanovic which should pretty much kill off your luis argument imo... and considering how lowly he rated luis last season, it's a big big ask for your assumption to even have a chance..

 

As for cech, is he doing wonder at arsenal at the moment? hardly and begovic was hardly at fault for the goals conceded, I doubt cech would have done any better.. as for that 'leadership' attribute that have been talked and hyped so much, I just wonder what kind of leadership attribute is that? some kind of magic words? We got JT, I'm pretty sure he had already delivered that motivation speech and rallied the team as much as he could this season and it didn't seem to work so if he failed, I doubt somebody else can succeed.. Unless, you going with another assumption that an echo from cech would do the trick.. 

 

Im just curious if you are really trying to compare how Luis couldnt get into last seasons back 4 (you know, the back 4 that had 3 featuring in the BPL team of the season) versus how he would fare this season....  You can spot the difference, right?  It's not a big ask.

 

Leadership is something I guess you have yet to experience bola.  A good leader can just get people to dig in and try just a bit harder....boy, that'd of been splendid first half of this season.

 

As for Terry, well a few things.  First, Ive always heard two heads is better than one....I wonder if having two leaders would be better.  Three might even top two!  Secondly, lame duck leadership.  Take a minute and look it up.  If Terry cant even get a nailed on starters spot, cant even get a contract beyond the end of this season, just how do you expect him to be the dominant voice in that dressing room (well maybe if he had someone to back him up, another experience pro who had won it all but still had the ability to compete at the very top level for many more years.....)?  It's the same reason Im not surprised that Mourinho wasnt able to get much out of certain players, board made it clear that Mourinho doesnt call all the shots.  In fact, the board 100% showed that if an important player and Mourinho disagree on a course of action, the board will very likely back the player over the manager.... why the F would any dissenting players respect that leadership?  It contains little to no authority.  

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by Barry Bridges

Go and watch the 2012 Champions League when the leadership in the team carried a flawed team to the biggest moment in this club's history.

 

2012 and 2015, 3 years of difference tho, hardly relevant.. The only leadership that can from a senior who was on the bench is that speech.. It's not the same playing field.. 

2012 and 2015, 3 years of difference tho, hardly relevant.. The only leadership that can from a senior who was on the bench is that speech.. It's not the same playing field.. 

Thats because with Lampard/Drogba/Cech/Ashley all on the pitch, we could afford for JT the leader to be on the bench. See, leadership in spades then mate, wonder if that played a roll in that team continually beating teams that on paper were far superior.

Luis irrelevant? How can that be so when we played Ivan through half a season of terrible form because we couldnt afford to put Dave at his natural position? If we had Luis instead of Baba, Ivanovic gets the bench.....that is very relevant.

What did Jose do that makes you think he rated Luis any highly than Baba?

 

I must agree with Bola here and say that Ivanovic wouldn't have been dropped regardless, he had more than his fair share of bad games last season when Luis was here and he still wasn't dropped. 

Im just curious if you are really trying to compare how Luis couldnt get into last seasons back 4 (you know, the back 4 that had 3 featuring in the BPL team of the season) versus how he would fare this season....  You can spot the difference, right?  It's not a big ask.

 

Leadership is something I guess you have yet to experience bola.  A good leader can just get people to dig in and try just a bit harder....boy, that'd of been splendid first half of this season.

 

As for Terry, well a few things.  First, Ive always heard two heads is better than one....I wonder if having two leaders would be better.  Three might even top two!  Secondly, lame duck leadership.  Take a minute and look it up.  If Terry cant even get a nailed on starters spot, cant even get a contract beyond the end of this season, just how do you expect him to be the dominant voice in that dressing room (well maybe if he had someone to back him up, another experience pro who had won it all but still had the ability to compete at the very top level for many more years.....)?  It's the same reason Im not surprised that Mourinho wasnt able to get much out of certain players, board made it clear that Mourinho doesnt call all the shots.  In fact, the board 100% showed that if an important player and Mourinho disagree on a course of action, the board will very likely back the player over the manager.... why the F would any dissenting players respect that leadership?  It contains little to no authority.  

 

Ivanovic has been awful this season especially the 1st half of the season, it's beyond awful, his form was that bad that any tom or dick could replace him and won't fare worse but yet he was still undroppable,  I think we all can get the picture.. The best chance luis would play is replacing azpi on the left which doing nothing or little of relevance.. 

 

I won't argue too much on the dominant voice, I'm not the kind of person who think that words can have that much of an influence but action would.. cech wasn't as commanding on the field as the previous years so his words won't be much different than JTs.. Just like you said, if a player can't even get on the team, how do you expect him to be the dominant voice? Adding number of the same kind here won't do trick imo.. 

Ivanovic has been awful this season especially the 1st half of the season, it's beyond awful, his form was that bad that any tom or dick could replace him and won't fare worse but yet he was still undroppable,  I think we all can get the picture.. The best chance luis would play is replacing azpi on the left which doing nothing or little of relevance.. 

 

I won't argue too much on the dominant voice, I'm not the kind of person who think that words can have that much of an influence but action would.. cech wasn't as commanding on the field as the previous years so his words won't be much different than JTs.. Just like you said, if a player can't even get on the team, how do you expect him to be the dominant voice? Adding number of the same kind here won't do trick imo..

It's not just about a voice, it's about experience, performing in the big games and having respect of the new and young players joining the club.

Thats because with Lampard/Drogba/Cech/Ashley all on the pitch, we could afford for JT the leader to be on the bench. See, leadership in spades then mate, wonder if that played a roll in that team continually beating teams that on paper were far superior.

 

Exactly, they were all on the pitch back then.. We're talking about senior player showing 'leadership' from the bench, how effective that would be? 

What did Jose do that makes you think he rated Luis any highly than Baba?

 

I must agree with Bola here and say that Ivanovic wouldn't have been dropped regardless, he had more than his fair share of bad games last season when Luis was here and he still wasn't dropped. 

Why would you drop a RB who plays so well he made player of the year in that position?

 

Let me make this very clear, last season Luis barely got any time because the players ahead of him were playing exceptional.  Ivanovic didnt get dropped because he was the best RB  in the league and one of the best across Europe.  Thats not the case this season, is it?  

 

 

How do I know Luis was better rated than Baba?  Well, aside from the obviusness that Mourinho prefers players proven at the highest level to youth, because Luis 11 starts and 4 sub appearances before Christmas in a Chelsea side that was playing the best football it had since it won the double under Carlo breaking the record for most goals scored in a BPL season.....whilst Baba got less starts and sub appearances in the same time frame, but in a Chelsea side that had probably played its worst football since many here were born.......

 

I think that makes it pretty clear where Luis stood compared to Baba

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by Barry Bridges

Exactly, they were all on the pitch back then.. We're talking about senior player showing 'leadership' from the bench, how effective that would be? 

 

I think that's a superficial way to look at it if I'm being honest. The guys we had in past teams set the tone for what was expected from this team. When we talk about the club currently lacking an identity or a philosophy, it's in part due to not having these types of characters around,

Exactly, they were all on the pitch back then.. We're talking about senior player showing 'leadership' from the bench, how effective that would be? 

Who is leading from the bench?  Cech?  Nah, he would of been leading from the pitch all during Courtois injury and likely past then given the form of our Belgian players.  Plus those goal keepers really know how to shout.

 

however, I think the term "an important voice in the dressing room" is used for a specific reason and not "an important voice on the bench"

 

edit: and as ShedEnder said, the importance is having those leaders in the squad period.  

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by Barry Bridges

So I'm missing the point because I'm judging the board on the results that the board achieved in the Summer? You think I should judge them on what exactly?

 

Look, I'm happy that you're happy that things are improving and that we're unbeaten in however many games it is but what's important for me is the future of this club and that isn't Remy or Oscar anymore. It's Traore and Loftus-Cheek and Hiddink isn't doing anything to help those guys when he's not playing them.

 

What we're doing right now is consolidating mid-table and that's a continuation of the lack of ambition we showed last summer. That's not good for any club with aspirations of greatness and I'm shocked that people are defending it.

Hiddink is not perfect and is making mistakes himself. The damage however has already been done and he is only an interim. I have my mind focussed on the next manager. I'm not happy but I'm not sad either. I'm beyond all that. What I can say is that I am optimistic that this club will see success again as I can't see any of our rivals on the verge of domination. The league has changed where the door is open for anyone.

 

I'll say it again. The board could've done better in the summer. Not should've....could've. Unless you can tell me EXACTLY what signings we should've made with logical reasons why they would realistically come to us then what you're saying doesn't really add up.

 

It's all good and well saying we should improve the squad, but you can't even come up with a list of players that wouldve done that. Furthermore, you have no evidence to suggest that the board didn't even try to make such signings and you certainly have no evidence that Jose wanted these players either.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

Right here we go, you obviously don't remember that season well and are just looking at money spent and the end results.

Cech at his peak was out for 3 months

Terry and Carvalho was out a lot. Against Liverpool we had Ferreari and Essien at CB. Other injuries like Robben.

Buying Romans best mate was the worst thing Chelsea could do. They had walked 2 premier league titles playing 433 and breaking records and signing Sheva changed the formation and position of players like Lampard. Playing 2 up front made Chelsea a worst team. Was that the season Mourinho asked for a CB in Janaury because of the injury crises but got nothing from the board.

That's looking at the bigger picture than going Chelsea signed Sheva and lost the league.

Excuses excuses excuses. Every club suffers from injuries, and although it was a reason we lost out to United that year, the point is they still won the league with only making one signing. Considering the catching up they had to do, Carrick was hardly an ambitious signing too. Before we even got those major injuries, Utd were hunting the title from day one.

 

Any evidence that Jose asked for a CB and the board refused? Everyone seems to know what Jose wanted yet nothing to back it up. No quotes or anything. Sheva was a mistake but when he signed we were all excited. Hindsight is wonderful. That was an ambitious signing right there and we tried to improve the squad just the board didn't do it the right way. On a whole, the board was wrong when Jose first got sacked. Not this time however.

 

Luis irrelevant? How can that be so when we played Ivan through half a season of terrible form because we couldnt afford to put Dave at his natural position? If we had Luis instead of Baba, Ivanovic gets the bench.....that is very relevant.

Cech was also a part of the old guard and an important leader in the dessing room....something sorely lacking this season.....not to mention he also would of done better than Begovic and would of given us an option of a World Class keeper. I'd say important difference.

Pedro didnt replace anyone, unless you consider him a flop at which point he replaced Salah and/or Cuadrado. Lets not forget that he was bought after the season started,.... well, taken away from MUFC right under there nose..... shame he was thrown into the deep end, expected to solve all our attacking woes, without even the abysmal preseason thatoccured this summer.

Oh, and while Idont rate Sterling as all that, he would be the second most productive attacking player (behind Costa) if he were in our squad.....so I think you will have to re-evaluate wether he was a success or not or admit that our squad is nowhere near the level you seem to have them......because by your logic, this season the MCFC flop is head and shoulders above our alleged best player and almost everyone else in the squad.

It could be....but ManCity has only had one manager with those players...and yet most players have 2 BPL medals.....weve had plenty of players who pre and post Mourinho, never look like lifting the title at CFC under numerous managers, let alone lifting numerous BPL tititles..... I guess thats why that logic is better suited to MCFC than Chelsea

as for Konakai, you say we have an ambitious owner? I would of agreed a few years ago but you cant not slap that label after the last few transfer windows. We know have a pragmatic owner. If we still had an ambitious owner I have no doubt Mourinho would right now, with an altered squad, be laughing at how easy this back to back title business is.

Nonsense, Luis hardly got a game with us last season, so was always going to leave. Why sit on the bench? We had Ivan in terrible form and Baba was more than capable of playing left back with Dave at RB. What was Joses excuse? A pathetic one that Baba is too short. Meanwhile we are conceding from aerial balls left right and center.

 

Cech decided to leave and there was a reason for that. He wasn't getting any first team football. Bergovic had a terrible defence in front of him, Cech would've done no better.

 

How do you know Sterling wouldvve been the second most productive player in our squad? He really isn't any better than Pedro. Just a young prospect with speed and a weak shot and poor cross.

 

There are soooooooo many excuses flying around with speculative illogical points to blame the board and shy away from the main culprit who was the manager.

 

The manager who said the players betrayed him. They did, but that was his own doing due to poor man management

 

Who is leading from the bench?  Cech?  Nah, he would of been leading from the pitch all during Courtois injury and likely past then given the form of our Belgian players.  Plus those goal keepers really know how to shout.

 

however, I think the term "an important voice in the dressing room" is used for a specific reason and not "an important voice on the bench"

 

Agreed, but it also goes further than this. You have a collection of guys who spend the week together as well, getting ready for those 90 minutes on the pitch. That is far more important than a lot of people give it credit for, and we're lacking these characters now. They're the ones who set the tone for what it is to be part of Chelsea Football Club.

 

The worrying thing is that when JT goes, there isn't a person in the squad who knows what that actually means.