I don't see clubs like City, United and Arsenal with any more voices in the dressing room than us.

 

We have JT and I would also count Cesc as somewhat a leader but United have Rooney and no one else. Arsenal have Cech and no one else. City have Kompany and no one else.

 

The problem goes far beyond leaders. Its ultimately down to having a positive manager who has a healthy relationship with his players and can get the best out of them. Jose clearly messed up in that regard.

It's not just about a voice, it's about experience, performing in the big games and having respect of the new and young players joining the club.

 

Well, if they're not really playing then it's pretty much just a voice..  I think we're still in the context that relates to our poor season so I would say the new and young players won't be a factor because they didn't really 'participate' that much this season.. How much they got pumped on wouldn't have mattered.. 

 

It's actually more on the the more experienced and regular players that have been a disappointment this season for us.. They got plenty of big game experiences themselves so no excuse..

Hiddink is not perfect and is making mistakes himself. The damage however has already been done and he is only an interim. I have my mind focussed on the next manager. I'm not happy but I'm not sad either. I'm beyond all that. What I can say is that I am optimistic that this club will see success again as I can't see any of our rivals on the verge of domination. The league has changed where the door is open for anyone.

 

I'll say it again. The board could've done better in the summer. Not should've....could've. Unless you can tell me EXACTLY what signings we should've made with logical reasons why they would realistically come to us then what you're saying doesn't really add up.

 

It's all good and well saying we should improve the squad, but you can't even come up with a list of players that wouldve done that. Furthermore, you have no evidence to suggest that the board didn't even try to make such signings and you certainly have no evidence that Jose wanted these players either.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

 

Do you want just players who moved in that time period? First off the bat I'd say Imbula. Provides a lot of what we're looking for in midfield and when we were selling Ramires in January, he was joining Stoke. If you're looking in the same country then Neves might have been worth a shout or even someone who is a longer shot like Tielemans

 

In defence you've got options like Romagnogli or Alderweireld or maybe even Rudiger. If you're looking for longer shots then maybe Gimanez or Rugani or Laporte.

 

Those are a mixture of players who could impact now, provide depth or be ones for the future. The ones who impact immediately are the likes of Vidal, Nainngolen, Varane, Dybala etc. but a lot of those are pie in the sky.

 

What I think is that there's a lot of possibilities in between the two extremes of Stones and Djilobodgi and this is ultimately fantasy football. 

 

My problem with your line of thinking is that it has a very narrow focus on the coach's position alone, when the reality is that club's need to be properly run from board level down nowadays and I can't see us acting in a manner that I'd describe as 'responsible corporate behaviour'. Now that's not exciting to think about but it has huge ramifications in both the short and long-term. 

 

You seem to have no regard for this and think that just because we've had success in the past we'll have it again in the future. You might be right but things are rarely if ever that simple.

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by ShedEnder91

Hiddink is not perfect and is making mistakes himself. The damage however has already been done and he is only an interim. I have my mind focussed on the next manager. I'm not happy but I'm not sad either. I'm beyond all that. What I can say is that I am optimistic that this club will see success again as I can't see any of our rivals on the verge of domination. The league has changed where the door is open for anyone.

 

I'll say it again. The board could've done better in the summer. Not should've....could've. Unless you can tell me EXACTLY what signings we should've made with logical reasons why they would realistically come to us then what you're saying doesn't really add up.

 

It's all good and well saying we should improve the squad, but you can't even come up with a list of players that wouldve done that. Furthermore, you have no evidence to suggest that the board didn't even try to make such signings and you certainly have no evidence that Jose wanted these players either.

 

Prove me wrong.

 

Excuses excuses excuses. Every club suffers from injuries, and although it was a reason we lost out to United that year, the point is they still won the league with only making one signing. Considering the catching up they had to do, Carrick was hardly an ambitious signing too. Before we even got those major injuries, Utd were hunting the title from day one.

 

Any evidence that Jose asked for a CB and the board refused? Everyone seems to know what Jose wanted yet nothing to back it up. No quotes or anything. Sheva was a mistake but when he signed we were all excited. Hindsight is wonderful. That was an ambitious signing right there and we tried to improve the squad just the board didn't do it the right way. On a whole, the board was wrong when Jose first got sacked. Not this time however.

 

Nonsense, Luis hardly got a game with us last season, so was always going to leave. Why sit on the bench? We had Ivan in terrible form and Baba was more than capable of playing left back with Dave at RB. What was Joses excuse? A pathetic one that Baba is too short. Meanwhile we are conceding from aerial balls left right and center.

 

Cech decided to leave and there was a reason for that. He wasn't getting any first team football. Bergovic had a terrible defence in front of him, Cech would've done no better.

 

How do you know Sterling wouldvve been the second most productive player in our squad? He really isn't any better than Pedro. Just a young prospect with speed and a weak shot and poor cross.

 

There are soooooooo many excuses flying around with speculative illogical points to blame the board and shy away from the main culprit who was the manager.

 

The manager who said the players betrayed him. They did, but that was his own doing due to poor man management

Oh my.  I'll cut my response short because your accuse me of speculative illogical points whilst being the one guilty of it.

 

I stated Sterlings stats would make him the second most productive player in our squad....I know this because I actually looked.  Its an amazing technique, looking something up before speculating about it, you should try it.

 

 

Luis didnt get many games, but he did get more than you let on, because the players ahead of him were in amazing form.  What is Mourinho's excuse for not playing Baba?  Good question.  I suppose I could go on about how defensively poor he has been, point out the last action of his I recall was gifting the other team a goal with one of the daftest headers Ive ever seen, or I could direct you to the thread on Baba and say "take your pick of any of the reasons posted here" but I think my favourite would to just ask you the same question....whats Hiddinks excuse for not playing him?   He's given him less starts than Mourinho (see, that looking things up really comes in handy, eh?)

 

 

So why did those players betray the club and the fans at the same time?  What justifiable reason do that have for that?  As for it all being down to Mourinhos poor man management,......well thats odd, because about every other group of players EVER to work with Mourinho would say that his man management is about the best in the game.  Obviously there is no way it could of been the attitude of certain players.  Sorry, what was that about speculative illogical points?

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by Barry Bridges

I don't see clubs like City, United and Arsenal with any more voices in the dressing room than us.

 

We have JT and I would also count Cesc as somewhat a leader but United have Rooney and no one else. Arsenal have Cech and no one else. City have Kompany and no one else.

 

The problem goes far beyond leaders. Its ultimately down to having a positive manager who has a healthy relationship with his players and can get the best out of them. Jose clearly messed up in that regard.

City have a very developed spine of Hart, Kompany, Silva, Toure and Aguero. They're established players who set the tone for what that club is nowadays.

 

We had that in Cech, Terry, Cole, Lampard and Drogba and we've not renewed that. In fact we've rather unceremoniously dumped most of those players and in JT we lose something very unique.

I don't see clubs like City, United and Arsenal with any more voices in the dressing room than us.

 

We have JT and I would also count Cesc as somewhat a leader but United have Rooney and no one else. Arsenal have Cech and no one else. City have Kompany and no one else.

 

The problem goes far beyond leaders. Its ultimately down to having a positive manager who has a healthy relationship with his players and can get the best out of them. Jose clearly messed up in that regard.

How about having players who try their hardest under a successful manager regardless of their personal feelings?

Why would you drop a RB who plays so well he made player of the year in that position?

 

Let me make this very clear, last season Luis barely got any time because the players ahead of him were playing exceptional.  Ivanovic didnt get dropped because he was the best RB  in the league and one of the best across Europe.  Thats not the case this season, is it?  

 

 

How do I know Luis was better rated than Baba?  Well, aside from the obviusness that Mourinho prefers players proven at the highest level to youth, because Luis 11 starts and 4 sub appearances before Christmas in a Chelsea side that was playing the best football it had since it won the double under Carlo breaking the record for most goals scored in a BPL season.....whilst Baba got less starts and sub appearances in the same time frame, but in a Chelsea side that had probably played its worst football since many here were born.......

 

I think that makes it pretty clear where Luis stood compared to Baba

Because, defensively, he was poor for about half the season. He made player of the year, rightly or wrongly, because of his offensive contributions. 

 

Alright but, and I could be wrong here as I can't remember everything last season, I'm 90% sure that all of Luis starts came at the expense of Dave being dropped to the bench. Luis probably would have gotten more game time than Baba this season but why do you think Ivanovic would have been the one who got dropped and not Dave when everything Jose did seems to suggest otherwise?

Who is leading from the bench?  Cech?  Nah, he would of been leading from the pitch all during Courtois injury and likely past then given the form of our Belgian players.  Plus those goal keepers really know how to shout.

 

however, I think the term "an important voice in the dressing room" is used for a specific reason and not "an important voice on the bench"

 

edit: and as ShedEnder said, the importance is having those leaders in the squad period.  

 

The difference between us is that you giving too much emphasis on the impact those so called leaders can bring on to the team.. If they're still as dominant on the pitch as on yesteryears then I don't see why I wouldn't stand on the same page as you but as of late, I just don't think so... 

Well, if they're not really playing then it's pretty much just a voice..  I think we're still in the context that relates to our poor season so I would say the new and young players won't be a factor because they didn't really 'participate' that much this season.. How much they got pumped on wouldn't have mattered.. 

 

It's actually more on the the more experienced and regular players that have been a disappointment this season for us.. They got plenty of big game experiences themselves so no excuse..

I'm not talking about this season, you was questioning the importance of leaders and voices. If you can't see the importance of having leaders at a club then just look at Chelsea the last 10 years and compare it to Arsenal. All I ever hear is Arsenal lack leaders and they do. They have done since Viera, Henry, Keown etc all left. A leader gets Conquelin and tells him to be careful in the 2nd half against Spurs.

But leaders don't always have to be a voice, they earn respect of fellow pros for what they have done in the game. Look at Scholes, legend of the game but not a Terry like. Leaders are players around the dressing room/ training ground every day. They don't always have to play. Like bringing Drogba back last year. He was probably more important off the pitch than on it.

Because, defensively, he was poor for about half the season. He made player of the year, rightly or wrongly, because of his offensive contributions. 

 

Alright but, and I could be wrong here as I can't remember everything last season, I'm 90% sure that all of Luis starts came at the expense of Dave being dropped to the bench. Luis probably would have gotten more game time than Baba this season but why do you think Ivanovic would have been the one who got dropped and not Dave when everything Jose did seems to suggest otherwise?

When was he that poor last season? we had the best GA in the league and only conceeded a lot at the start when the team was scoring for fun. Dont forget that it was Dave who was the one left out of the team of the season, not Ivanovic. Obviously I didnt vote but clearly there was a lot of people who felt that Ivan did better that year hence maybe why he wasnt the one getting dropped (if your memory is correct).

Why do you assume Ivan would not of been dropped?

Heres my logic and speculation. Mourinho knows he has Ivan who clearly has the ability to be the best RB in the league (voted so a few times if Im not mistaken) despite being poor now. He also has Dave, can do RB or LB. He then has Baba who apparently neither Mourinho or Hiddink currently rate as first team quality.

So you cand drop Ivan, move Dave over and play Baba, but all you have done is switch the problem RB sitation with a problem LB situation. Or, you can try and play Ivanovic into form again and have both areas solved.

Thats speculation but to me it seems logical and fits with the actions....far better than this belief that Ivanovic was undroppable regardless if we had better options (we didnt). If Im not mistaken, Hiddink didnt really change it up until injuries forced him either.....

Luis didnt get many games, but he did get more than you let on, because the players ahead of him were in amazing form.  What is Mourinho's excuse for not playing Baba?  Good question.  I suppose I could go on about how defensively poor he has been, point out the last action of his I recall was gifting the other team a goal with one of the daftest headers Ive ever seen, or I could direct you to the thread on Baba and say "take your pick of any of the reasons posted here" but I think my favourite would to just ask you the same question....whats Hiddinks excuse for not playing him?   He's given him less starts than Mourinho (see, that looking things up really comes in handy, eh?)

 

 

So why did those players betray the club and the fans at the same time?  What justifiable reason do that have for that?  As for it all being down to Mourinhos poor man management,......well thats odd, because about every other group of players EVER to work with Mourinho would say that his man management is about the best in the game.  Obviously there is no way it could of been the attitude of certain players.  Sorry, what was that about speculative illogical points?

 

Too harsh on baba, as a fullback, I don't think he's any poorer than ivan or even azpi this season.. That direct mistake you mentioned is probably his 1st and you want to use it as the benchmark? Name me one chelsea defender that didn't make that kind of direct mistake this season? miazga? good one, haha very funny..

Hiddink not really playing baba is simply because of preference.. just like jose didn't give chance to mikel despite matic poor form..  I really don't think you could justify 'jose knows best' based on his team selection this season...

 

The poor management  came as his dealing with the doctor fiasco incident, that was some sh*t of dictatorship.. good enough sh*t that would make people lose respect.. whether that so called betray is justifiable or not is of course another question but that's not the point, the point is, as the man in charge, he shouldn't have let the matter blowing up like that.. 

 

Then it comes on the bold part, makelele might have different view on that, judging from jose's handling of team selection this season, it's clear that his favoritism had bad effect on team morale as suggested by makelele as 1 of big reasons for his downfall 1st time around..  that's another good example of his poor management..

I'm not talking about this season, you was questioning the importance of leaders and voices. If you can't see the importance of having leaders at a club then just look at Chelsea the last 10 years and compare it to Arsenal. All I ever hear is Arsenal lack leaders and they do. They have done since Viera, Henry, Keown etc all left. A leader gets Conquelin and tells him to be careful in the 2nd half against Spurs.

But leaders don't always have to be a voice, they earn respect of fellow pros for what they have done in the game. Look at Scholes, legend of the game but not a Terry like. Leaders are players around the dressing room/ training ground every day. They don't always have to play. Like bringing Drogba back last year. He was probably more important off the pitch than on it.

 

The silverlining is those leaders were all playing and dare I say it's because they're still dominant on the pitch that their words came into good effect.. I also heard arsenal lack leaders but you know, to be more specific, it's arsenal lack leaders on the pitch and we both agree it's correct.. 

 

I never questioning the importance of those voices while they're still on song and yeah, I'm talking about this season, Both JT & Cech especially the latter was far from regular, It's a different playing field already..

Malouda had 1 and half good season and during that time he once said people were now (then) listen when he talks in the dressing room which also suggests he wasn't really taken seriously before.. well, I guess that's how it works.. 

 

And as for drogba influence last season, I believed he said what he should have but how big of an impact his influence off the pitch in us winning the title last season is not something we can say for sure.. drogba, off the pitch, didn't do much to prevent ancelotti so called bad moments that last for like 4 months last time out.. 

 

Do you consider giggs as good leader btw? How do you rate his effect from the bench?

The silverlining is those leaders were all playing and dare I say it's because they're still dominant on the pitch that their words came into good effect.. I also heard arsenal lack leaders but you know, to be more specific, it's arsenal lack leaders on the pitch and we both agree it's correct.. 

 

I never questioning the importance of those voices while they're still on song and yeah, I'm talking about this season, Both JT & Cech especially the latter was far from regular, It's a different playing field already..

Malouda had 1 and half good season and during that time he once said people were now (then) listen when he talks in the dressing room which also suggests he wasn't really taken seriously before.. well, I guess that's how it works.. 

 

And as for drogba influence last season, I believed he said what he should have but how big of an impact his influence off the pitch in us winning the title last season is not something we can say for sure.. drogba, off the pitch, didn't do much to prevent ancelotti so called bad moments that last for like 4 months last time out.. 

 

Do you consider giggs as good leader btw? How do you rate his effect from the bench?

What the hell are you going on about? I am really confused.

Chelsea had loads of leaders the last 10 years and have won loads of trophies, it's pretty simple. Leaders come in different forms. What's all this rubbish about on the pitch or the bench. Leaders in a squad have a bigger influence than just match days..

I use Arsenal as an example as they have had lots of talented players the last 10 years but have lacked leaders which is backed up with the lack of titles.

What the hell are you going on about? I am really confused.

Chelsea had loads of leaders the last 10 years and have won loads of trophies, it's pretty simple. Leaders come in different forms. What's all this rubbish about on the pitch or the bench. Leaders in a squad have a bigger influence than just match days..

I use Arsenal as an example as they have had lots of talented players the last 10 years but have lacked leaders which is backed up with the lack of titles.

Drogba last year is the biggest example if a leader in the dressing room, he had a massive impact.

Drogba last year is the biggest example if a leader in the dressing room, he had a massive impact.

 

Agreed, having a man like didier in the dressing room is something not to be underestimated I believe if we had managed to get him back as assistant under guus we may of got and extra win or two since start of jan, I personally think he is that much of a presence in general and even more so at our club, true leadership is a quality that cant be taught you either have it or you dont.

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by strong centreback

Drogba last year is the biggest example if a leader in the dressing room, he had a massive impact.

Yep fully agree

Do you want just players who moved in that time period? First off the bat I'd say Imbula. Provides a lot of what we're looking for in midfield and when we were selling Ramires in January, he was joining Stoke. If you're looking in the same country then Neves might have been worth a shout or even someone who is a longer shot like Tielemans

 

In defence you've got options like Romagnogli or Alderweireld or maybe even Rudiger. If you're looking for longer shots then maybe Gimanez or Rugani or Laporte.

 

Those are a mixture of players who could impact now, provide depth or be ones for the future. The ones who impact immediately are the likes of Vidal, Nainngolen, Varane, Dybala etc. but a lot of those are pie in the sky.

 

What I think is that there's a lot of possibilities in between the two extremes of Stones and Djilobodgi and this is ultimately fantasy football. 

 

My problem with your line of thinking is that it has a very narrow focus on the coach's position alone, when the reality is that club's need to be properly run from board level down nowadays and I can't see us acting in a manner that I'd describe as 'responsible corporate behaviour'. Now that's not exciting to think about but it has huge ramifications in both the short and long-term. 

 

You seem to have no regard for this and think that just because we've had success in the past we'll have it again in the future. You might be right but things are rarely if ever that simple.

 

Ok you've named a host of players. If Baba Rahman went and started performing for Stoke I'm sure you would mention him too. Jose might not have fancies the likes of Rugani, Laporte etc. Sounds like you could also put Cuadrado in that bracket and look what happened. We have enough guys out on loan who could be given a chance. None of those are givens, just prospects, so I wouldn't say they would be the difference given how bad our season has been.

 

As for the likes of Vidal and Varane. Impossible signings. Vidal started off in Germany and wanted to go to the biggest German side whilst Madrid are not letting go of Varane so easy. Dybala is a player whos eyes are most likely on Spain.

 

I repeat for the 100th time, that Stones is way overpriced and the board will not be held to ransom. Why should the board contribute to more financial losses just to fork out 50m for an overrated English defender.Might aswell promote Kalas or Christiensen.

 

Responsible corporate behaviour lol.

 

I'm pretty sure that not spunking 200m every window and showing some prudence in at least not selling one of your best assets is responsible corporate behaviour. Especially when your rivals who were behind you havent greatly improved themselves.

 

Funny thing is the biggest improvement made by our rivals is the one Jose didn't give a chance to.

Drogba last year is the biggest example if a leader in the dressing room, he had a massive impact.

Remember reading through loads of threads and masses of fans saying he made a mistake coming back, hes past it and could ruin his legacy.

 

It was unbelievable and I'm sure I'm not the only one who saw such comments.

How about having players who try their hardest under a successful manager regardless of their personal feelings?

 

Players shouldn't act that way I agree, but they have too much power. The problem is when you do something where the whole squad turns against you. If Jose was a humble person who didn't start wars himself like Carlo, I would side with him but he thought he was above the law and it backfired.

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by KonaKai Blue

and the drogs banged in a crucial goal against leicester in the run in

City have a very developed spine of Hart, Kompany, Silva, Toure and Aguero. They're established players who set the tone for what that club is nowadays.

 

We had that in Cech, Terry, Cole, Lampard and Drogba and we've not renewed that. In fact we've rather unceremoniously dumped most of those players and in JT we lose something very unique.

Their spine is nothing compared to ours (I know you agree with that anyway).

 

 

That spine of City's is good on paper yes but besides Kompany, the rest are not leaders and their success since they have been together proves that. They shouldve achieved much more so whatever tone they are setting is nothing to be overly proud of.

 

We didn't dump most of our spine. No player is bigger than the club. Fergie evolved his club and still saw success. When we decide to let a 34 year old player on mega wages who is clearly past his best we are slated for it.

 

Cech wanted to leave because he wasnt getting game time. Jose said Tibo is his number one so Cech had to accept it or force a move. This is not the boards fault.

 

JT hasn't left yet. Again it's Conte's or the new managers choice whether JT should stay or not. JT just decided to open his mouth and create controversy by spilling the beans on negotiations which he clearly at the moment isn't comfortable with.

 

Cole was a great servant and moved on. It happens at many other clubs big clubs. Greats are let go when better younger players come. We had Dave.

 

Lampard - It was time for him to go. Another player on mega wages. Fans were saying he was past it and as soon as he leaves they complain. It was the right time for him to go and we are never going to replace such a great player.

Same applies to Drogba.

 

There comes a time when you have to say goodbye and rebuild. Greatness doesn't last forever.

 

 

There comes a time when you have to say goodbye and rebuild.

 

Exactly. That's what people here have been saying.

Edited March 21, 201610 yr by ShedEnder91

Oh my.  I'll cut my response short because your accuse me of speculative illogical points whilst being the one guilty of it.

 

I stated Sterlings stats would make him the second most productive player in our squad....I know this because I actually looked.  Its an amazing technique, looking something up before speculating about it, you should try it.

 

 

Luis didnt get many games, but he did get more than you let on, because the players ahead of him were in amazing form.  What is Mourinho's excuse for not playing Baba?  Good question.  I suppose I could go on about how defensively poor he has been, point out the last action of his I recall was gifting the other team a goal with one of the daftest headers Ive ever seen, or I could direct you to the thread on Baba and say "take your pick of any of the reasons posted here" but I think my favourite would to just ask you the same question....whats Hiddinks excuse for not playing him?   He's given him less starts than Mourinho (see, that looking things up really comes in handy, eh?)

 

 

So why did those players betray the club and the fans at the same time?  What justifiable reason do that have for that?  As for it all being down to Mourinhos poor man management,......well thats odd, because about every other group of players EVER to work with Mourinho would say that his man management is about the best in the game.  Obviously there is no way it could of been the attitude of certain players.  Sorry, what was that about speculative illogical points?

 

That Sterling point is a mute one. I'm sure you could find many many many players who just by stats alone would be the second most productive player in our squad. Stats don't tell the full story anyway. Just go on Citys forum and see what they have to say about Sterling. The comments are not good, comparable to SWP.

 

If Luis got enough games, I'm sure he wouldn't force a move back to Atletico and I agree Dave being amazing kept him out. How can you say Baba was poor defensively when he was hardly even given a chance to adapt to a new league? No patience or trust was shown in him. Similar to how Lukaku and KDB were treated. 1 bad game and never seen again unlike Oscar and Ivan who Jose played time and time again after rubbish performances.

 

To answer your question I don't know Hiddinks excuse but at least he is giving young Kennedy more of a chance than Mourinho ever did.

 

The players that betrayed the club? JT who loves the club dearly was just as responsible for our downfall as much as Matic. He played no better and only Willian, Zouma and Bergovic can really hold their head high. Fact is Mourinho lost the dressing room and the players lost the hunger and motivation to play for him.

 

Its no different to when AVB was sacked and now legends such as Drogs and Lamps didn't play for him. By that logic, they beytrayed the fans too.

 

Jose's man management is the best but after 3 years is goes downhill. Have a read of Drogbas book and he says it himself.

Exactly. That's what people here have been saying.

It doesn't mean you have to go out and spend £200m in a market where there is no abundance of real talent that are easy to get.

 

We have so many players on loan and an amazing youth team. Surely we don't need a Pogba to keep us away from relegation in November?

It doesn't mean you have to go out and spend £200m in a market where there is no abundance of real talent that are easy to get.

 

We have so many players on loan and an amazing youth team. Surely we don't need a Pogba to keep us away from relegation in November?

 

Again, you come back to this idea about relegation when I'm talking about ambition. Used the word a fair bit and yet it's sliding under the radar.

 

You talk about spending £200 million which is a figure no-one has mentioned. The fact is we have spent £9 million this season. What level of ambition is that indicative of exactly?

 

Notice I'm not saying we should spend £200 million. 

 

You throw up all these straw men to disagree with Chelsea supporters who want the same as you - to compete at the highest level. Yet you seem to be unable to understand their arguments that the problem wasn't just Jose. We've all conceded there were issues there yet we're looking beyond that. Your unwillingness or inability to do this is just sending us round in circles, and it's boring quite frankly. Sorry to be blunt but there it is.