Please keep all discussion in here and not in other threads. Personal attacks to other forum members will not be tolerated. Heated discussions are a given and of course emotions will run high but there is a big line between that and unnesersary comments towards other posters.

Thank you.

It's great that the families of the deceased can finally have closure, what happened was a terrible tragedy, and an accident. The cover up from then on was sickening, and the more you read/hear about it the more sickening it becomes. Those ultimately responsible need to be held accountable. What I hope doesn't happen is it becomes a hunt to punish anyone who had the smallest part to play, the vast majority of police on the ground were doing everything in their power to save lives once the enormity of the situation was known. There seems a bit of a push to castigate the whole of the south Yorkshire police force. It has to be remembered that at the time the reason the police treat certain sections of fans in such a way was because some fans deserved to be, the police went to many games expecting trouble, and would get it. The atmosphere at games was shocking, full of the promise and expectation of violence. This by no means excuses the actions of them all, just the ones who were told to react to the commands of the police controllers.

Now, there are also several things that just don't sit right with me that I feel the need to say.

Liverpool fans have been completely absolved of all blame, no fans rushed the gate, none were drunk etc. I just don't believe that, there is no way that's true. Whether them rushing the gate or being drunk had any impact on the disaster, I have no idea, though I feel it didn't.

Secondly, certain fans using this jft96 thing as a badge of honour, using it to shut down any conversation with negativity towards the club, using it to justify them abusing opposition fans/clubs/players, rewriting history etc is unbelievably crass and disgusting.

I think it's pretty clear that some empty-headed police men have opened the gates without considering that the areas were already full. They (some fans) might have rushed in but they were in no position to see whether the area was already too crowded. I can't see how you can blame the fans for that. That was supposed to be the job of the police who didn't even have the courtesy to allow the ambulances to help the heavily injured fans. 

Edited April 29, 20168 yr by Uxanga

Ten year old fatality had blood tested for alcohol. Wrong doing is one thing, covering that up worse, demonising a group for that purpose disgusting.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-3560552/PETER-OBORNE-Corruption-27-years-lies-Hillsborough-destroyed-faith-police.html

Edited April 29, 20168 yr by Droogba

I think it's pretty clear that some empty-headed police men have opened the gates without considering that the areas were already full. They (some fans) might have rushed in but they were in no position to see whether the area was already too crowded. I can't see how you can blame the fans for that. That was supposed to be the job of the police who didn't even have the courtesy to allow the ambulances to help the heavily injured fans.

Yes, those who are meant to serve and protect made a number of errors, all now proven and the victims cleared of fault or blame. Yet, a significant number of police officers are continuing to obstruct apparently.

Feel for the off duty officer who tried in vain to help.

I think most of us are aware, certainly those of us who either are or have been regular match goers, of Liverpool supporters habitually turning up at grounds without tickets, with out of date tickets, forged tickets, storming the gates and so forth. It happened at Heysel, it's happened at the Bridge. However, Hillsborough was something else. Hillsborough occurred as a direct result of the prevailing attitude of the Establishment of the day towards football supporters in general, that we were sub-human scum who deserved to be treated like animals.

A disaster - no sorry, make that an ATROCITY, on the scale of Hillsborough could have happened to any of us,had we been unfortunate to have been herded into pend at the mercy of a corrupt and self-serving police force who held the exact same attitude, the attitude held and propagated from Thatcher on down, who hated football supporters every bit as much as she hated the minors.

 

From the Independent:

 

The prime minister [Margaret Thatcher] and her aide Sir Bernard Ingham visited the stadium the day after the FA Cup semi-final in Sheffield, and were told by South Yorkshire police that "drunken Liverpool fans" had caused the crush that killed 96 people.

 

 

Thank you for your letter of June 13. I am sorry you are disgusted with the uncomfortable truth about the real cause of the Hillsborough disaster. It is my unhappy experience to find that most reasonable people outside Merseyside recognise the truth of what I say.

All I get from Merseyside is abuse. I wonder why. You are at least right in believing that you will have to put up with my discomforting views. I cherish the hope that as time goes on you will come to recognise the truth of what I say.

After all, who if not the tanked up yobs who turned up late determined to get into the ground caused the disaster? To blame the police, even though they may have made mistakes, is contemptible.

 

Ingham was asked again about his comments in 2013. He told the Liverpool Echo he stood by his original remarks and also refused to apologise for saying Liverpool should "shut up" about Hillsborough.

 

Had any of us fallen victim to a similar ATRCOCITY, the attitudes of Thatcher, Ingham, Rupert Murdoch and the top echelons of the South Yorkshire Police, to name but a few, would have been exactly the same.

'Class war' has been used FQ and I think I can see that.

Cameron said, ...like a blind man, in a dark room, looking for a black cat that isn't there ( paraphrasing) about those wanting answers.

Edited April 29, 20168 yr by Droogba

Throw Tony Blair in the mix too mate, when he was asked to review the case his reply was "why bother". Disgusting

Throw Tony Blair in the mix too mate, when he was asked to review the case his reply was "why bother". Disgusting

Yes, you're right.

I think most of us are aware, certainly those of us who either are or have been regular match goers, of Liverpool supporters habitually turning up at grounds without tickets, with out of date tickets, forged tickets, storming the gates and so forth. It happened at Heysel, it's happened at the Bridge. However, Hillsborough was something else. Hillsborough occurred as a direct result of the prevailing attitude of the Establishment of the day towards football supporters in general, that we were sub-human scum who deserved to be treated like animals.

A disaster - no sorry, make that an ATROCITY, on the scale of Hillsborough could have happened to any of us,had we been unfortunate to have been herded into pend at the mercy of a corrupt and self-serving police force who held the exact same attitude, the attitude held and propagated from Thatcher on down, who hated football supporters every bit as much as she hated the minors.

From the Independent:

The prime minister [Margaret Thatcher] and her aide Sir Bernard Ingham visited the stadium the day after the FA Cup semi-final in Sheffield, and were told by South Yorkshire police that "drunken Liverpool fans" had caused the crush that killed 96 people.

Thank you for your letter of June 13. I am sorry you are disgusted with the uncomfortable truth about the real cause of the Hillsborough disaster. It is my unhappy experience to find that most reasonable people outside Merseyside recognise the truth of what I say.

All I get from Merseyside is abuse. I wonder why. You are at least right in believing that you will have to put up with my discomforting views. I cherish the hope that as time goes on you will come to recognise the truth of what I say.

After all, who if not the tanked up yobs who turned up late determined to get into the ground caused the disaster? To blame the police, even though they may have made mistakes, is contemptible.

Ingham was asked again about his comments in 2013. He told the Liverpool Echo he stood by his original remarks and also refused to apologise for saying Liverpool should "shut up" about Hillsborough.

Had any of us fallen victim to a similar ATRCOCITY, the attitudes of Thatcher, Ingham, Rupert Murdoch and the top echelons of the South Yorkshire Police, to name but a few, would have been exactly the same.

Is that letter real?!

Ten year old fatality had blood tested for alcohol. Wrong doing is one thing, covering that up worse, demonising a group for that purpose disgusting.

That 10 year old was Jon Paul Gilhooley who was Steven Gerrard's cousin. He was a year older than Steven and considered the more promising football player at the time. Another uncle had a ticket to the game and took Jon Paul instead of Steven.

As Steven became a star, the Gerrard/Gilhooley family naturally used his fame and media connections to push the quest for truth on behalf of all the families. Even with the pressure from Gerrard and his family, it still took decades. I cynically think that if none of the victims had a famous family member, the truth would never have come out.

Complete ignorance on my part, I never read how the event 'stopped' - did they eventually take/cut the fences down that meant people could move onto the pitch?

I think most of us are aware, certainly those of us who either are or have been regular match goers, of Liverpool supporters habitually turning up at grounds without tickets, with out of date tickets, forged tickets, storming the gates and so forth. It happened at Heysel, it's happened at the Bridge. However, Hillsborough was something else. Hillsborough occurred as a direct result of the prevailing attitude of the Establishment of the day towards football supporters in general, that we were sub-human scum who deserved to be treated like animals.

A disaster - no sorry, make that an ATROCITY, on the scale of Hillsborough could have happened to any of us,had we been unfortunate to have been herded into pens at the mercy of a corrupt and self-serving police force who held the exact same attitude, the attitude held and propagated from Thatcher on down, who hated football supporters every bit as much as she hated the minors.

 

 

Back then I think we all experienced that style of policing and we all experienced some pretty serious crushes in some very packed terraces, but I was never crushed so much that I couldn't breathe. The design of the Leppings Lane pens was inherently dangerous. I went there a few times in the 80s, but we were in Div 2 so there was nothing like the crowd for an FACup semi, but when people cram themselves in - as we all used to - only to find there's no way out and you are getting crushed or trampled to death by your fellow fans (totally accidentally), well that is horrific beyond all imagination.

With proper stewarding/ policing, the tunnel would have been blocked off once the pens were full, and while no doubt some fans would have got in through the open gate without tickets, there would have been no fatal crush inside the central pens if it had been, as there was enough room in the other pens. 

Like a lot of posters, I am sure there were plenty of ticketless fans, and fans who'd been drinking (I'll hold my hands up to being guilty of both before a big game),  but the real cause of the tragedy was poor crowd control/ serious errors by the police. 

And it goes without saying that the cover-up was shameful and people should go to jail for it.

Is that letter real?!

Yes, but you have to remember the times.

Back then football fans were treated as scum, hearded like animals. Hillsborough could have happened at any number of grounds, the fact it happened there & then was just chance.

I read this week that a contributing factor to the disaster was as the gate was opened Beardsly hit the bar, the fans surged forward, and as the fans from outside rushed in, there was nowhere for the fans to go back in to.

How many of us back in the day got caught in one of those surges? Could have happened to any team at any ground.

/\ The police lead told officers to take photos of the bins, hardly any evidence of excessive alcohol. The timing of this was raised at the hearing I believe. One man, accused of not having a ticket, has it to this day. The guy who let his friend go in his place committed suicide as his friend died. The crush forced bodily functions which some police capitalised on.

Offside, I think you're right but Gerrard's fame and influence has risen over the years and was no match for the serious institutional corruption. Kenny Dalgish has also done his bit.

It is so distressing as we now begin to understand what really happened.

Edit, I've also read about half of the casualties may have been saved had procedure been followed.

Edited April 29, 20168 yr by Droogba

Complete ignorance on my part, I never read how the event 'stopped' - did they eventually take/cut the fences down that meant people could move onto the pitch?

No, they didn't have the tools. There was one doorway at the front, and the narrow tunnel at the back, but most people were just trapped and couldn't avoid trampling on fellow fans who fell over in the surge that brought down a crush barrier. The twisted metal posts that were visible after were a horrific sign of the unreal pressure in the pens. 

I think one difficult question is why did people push their way into a pen that was already rammed even before the outside gate was open to let thousands in. I think the answer is that it was part of normal life on the terraces that you used your body to move your way through a packed crowd.

I've also read that when Liverpool hit the bar in the first couple of minutes, there was a surge that brought down a barrier, causing people to end up on the ground, which seemed to bring more people in from the tunnel, adding to the crush, as those on the floor had no way of getting back their feet, as the crowd couldn't retreat as it normally did after a surge (due to the layout of the pen, with just the narrow tunnel for an exit). And then, as well as people dying on the ground, there were people who were crushed to death against the front wall and fence.

Screaming at the coppers on duty was no help as they just thought it was normal abuse at first and blanked it out, and even when they woke up to the horrific reality of people dying, all they could do to relieve the crush was open the small door at the front. They couldn't dismantle the fences as there was no cutting gear. And the lack of ambulances/ poor access meant that people did who might have been saved with a quicker response.

 

EDIT I see Shedpensioner has made the same point about the surge when Beardsley hit the bar. Surges were a great laugh on the terraces, but you never thought people would get killed in one.

Edited April 29, 20168 yr by Backbiter

Hillsborough contributed to making grounds safer, as many have said it could have happened anywhere at any time then.

From reading posts from Shed Enders who attended football matches back in the day it appears the whole set up was a disaster waiting to happen. Just a shame the lesson wasn't learnt when a fence broke with no casualties instead.

/\ The police lead told officers to take photos of the bins, hardly any evidence of excessive alcohol. The timing of this was raised at the hearing I believe. One man, accused of not having a ticket, has it to this day. The guy who let his friend go in his place committed suicide as his friend died. The crush forced bodily functions which some police capitalised on.

When we speak of Hillsborough the term "victims" usually refers to the 96 fans who lost their lives. Thank you for pointing out that there are survivors who are also victims in some way. The Hicks parents lost both their daughters at Hillsborough. It has been said that there is no greater grief than losing a child. I heard them speak about how every birthday is a day of sorrow and how lonely they are in old age.

Hillsborough contributed to making grounds safer, as many have said it could have happened anywhere at any time then.

I hope that the loved ones of those killed can take some solace in knowing that their loss probably saved future fans from dying.

The fact that it's taken this long is especially tragic when you think about the number of loved ones who have died themselves during the past 27 years. They went to their graves with sorrow, bitterness, and anger.

those who was at Leicester at the same time of Hillsborough will know how ramed we was in that terracing....and the police kept a whole pen empty for segregation.

those who was at Leicester at the same time of Hillsborough will know how ramed we was in that terracing....and the police kept a whole pen empty for segregation.

Aren't stadiums in some other countries (Germany perhaps?) still like that?

Aren't stadiums in some other countries (Germany perhaps?) still like that?

Heysel was a few years before, I think some stadiums then reacted with regards to safety, but there has been inferior builds in parts of the world I believe.

Heysel was a few years before, I think some stadiums then reacted with regards to safety, but there has been inferior builds in parts of the world I believe.

You'd think that after Heysel clubs would have made changes, but I guess it was the "that's a different stadium, it won't happen with us" mentality at work.

As I reread the letter posted earlier, I feel so upset. It sounds like something from an internet troll, not a senior government official. What a vile person. The worst part is that that type of person in my experience never ever thinks they're wrong so they never feel the guilt and shame they deserve to. If he's still alive today, I bet he still doesn't think he did anything wrong.

Any that guy is a "Sir"?!

Edited April 29, 20168 yr by offside

You'd think that after Heysel clubs would have made changes, but I guess it was the "that's a different stadium, it won't happen with us" mentality at work.

As I reread the letter posted earlier, I feel so upset. It sounds like something from an internet troll, not a senior government official. What a vile person. The worst part is that that type of person in my experience never ever thinks they're wrong so they never feel the guilt and shame they deserve to. If he's still alive today, I bet he still doesn't think he did anything wrong.

Any that guy is a "Sir"?!

We've been far more distressed than we'd have imagined, I think I said the little lad and the sisters in particular. A family day out a result of which a mum and dad will never be grandparents.It could, as someone said, have been any of us.

Your point about Ingham is magnified in that it was compounded by the many in collusion.

According to reports there could be upwards of 5000 compensation claims, some from people who weren't even there that day, but claiming distress from the campaign!

There are plenty of cases deserving of compensation but if you weren't there how can you claim?

Having read a bit more on the case as well, I find it unbelievable that the fans have been completely absolved of blame, if you read how many fans the Leppings lane terrace held, and then how many were outside when the gate was opened the numbers just don't add up, there must have been a large number of fans without tickets.