We played better than in matches which we've won. Really encouraged and not viewing it as a loss with a 2nd leg coming. Although that will be tough - I dont like the way these scoreless matches are totting up.

Never really bothers me if we lose while putting our heart and soul into it.

On 09/01/2019 at 17:41, Argo said:

I'm sorry i am trying to resist replying to this but it's being said too often, your being quoted due to luck of draw, straw breaks camel's back.

Jorginho is a big, big reason we have gone from a side rubbish at being pressed to one that can play out the back easily even against the top teams, when a player is being pressed. Not only is Jorginho almost always in the pass combinations that lead to us playing out and retaining possession comfortably he is almost always in a position to receive a pass which in a lot of ways is our key defensive tactic as otherwise the other player would end up trapped and lose the ball leaving us exposed to a possible counter. 

There seems to be a notion that we are expecting Jorginho to be this creative genius in the final third, that's not what he was signed to do, he was signed to give us control in the middle of the park and keep things ticking over and he does his job fine.

Hhhhmm. But Argo can't you see the blindingly obvious downside to what you have described there?

By using Jorginho as that "passing" hub it hugely affects the tempo of our game. We often transition much too slowly from back to front. Mainly because of additional passes being played in areas where there is no real benefit, and because of Jorginho's usually short passing range of 5-10 yards.

We saw classic examples of this in the Newcastle game yesterday. And we saw the opposite. We saw what difference a player with a longer, more accurate, passing range and creative vision can do from those areas. Take a bow David Luiz!

I'd love to see Jorginho regularly making those types of balls but I am slowly coming to the conclusion that he doesn't have it in his locker. And if that is the case, that is a major problem for us because he also doesn't appear to have any other obvious skillset; pace, power, finishing, tackling, heading etc to make him a major asset and nailed on starter. In the Jorginho thread today @Forever Carefree has posted a stat that says Jorginho has now made over 2000 passes but hasn't created one assist. IMO that is worrying for a player the manager is intent upon building the team around.

Edited January 13, 20197 yr by just

27 minutes ago, just said:

I'd love to see Jorginho regularly making those types of balls but I am slowly coming to the conclusion that he doesn't have it in his locker. And if that is the case, that is a major problem for us because he also doesn't appear to have any other obvious skillset; pace, power, finishing, tackling, heading etc to make him a major asset and nailed on starter. In the Jorginho thread today Forever Carefree has posted a stay that says Jorginho has now made over 2000 passes but hasn't created one assist. IMO that is worrying for a player the manager is intent upon building the team around.

I'm not keen on the regista role yet see it as a team thing and 2000 passes without assists does not matter when you are winning.

The way you are winning is a factor yet as long as you are winning.

 

TBH I am not understanding your point there Strider?

20 hours ago, just said:

Hhhhmm. But Argo can't you see the blindingly obvious downside to what you have described there?

By using Jorginho as that "passing" hub it hugely affects the tempo of our game. We often transition much too slowly from back to front. Mainly because of additional passes being played in areas where there is no real benefit, and because of Jorginho's usually short passing range of 5-10 yards.

We saw classic examples of this in the Newcastle game yesterday. And we saw the opposite. We saw what difference a player with a longer, more accurate, passing range and creative vision can do from those areas. Take a bow David Luiz!

I'd love to see Jorginho regularly making those types of balls but I am slowly coming to the conclusion that he doesn't have it in his locker. And if that is the case, that is a major problem for us because he also doesn't appear to have any other obvious skillset; pace, power, finishing, tackling, heading etc to make him a major asset and nailed on starter. In the Jorginho thread today @Forever Carefree has posted a stat that says Jorginho has now made over 2000 passes but hasn't created one assist. IMO that is worrying for a player the manager is intent upon building the team around.

He has shown he can do it, against Arsenal (cross field ball to Alonso) and against Watford (pass for the penalty) but the key difference is at Napoli and if he went to City he had/would have had numerous runners and a solid system, we aren't quite there yet.

Now while i don't take away the type of balls Luiz has played in the last few games, it has to be taken into account from his CB position he isn't marked as tightly as Jorginho, he wouldn't have had the space and the time he had to pick out Pedro and Kante in recent weeks from CDM.

But furthermore to me, he wasn't signed to be a creative genius in the final 3rd, the responsibility in that regard is down to the players in front of him, his main job is to keep control in the central area and in general he is doing that fine, how many times this season have we lost the midfield battle? how many times these days do we actually lose possession needlessly in the middle like we did in the past? Palace recently was another example, he was always positioned to be available for a pass if a teammate was boxed in and if/when we are more accustomed to Sarri ball a 5 yard pass to another CM after receiving it will lead to a dangerous attack.

Our problems on the main are in the final 3rd and lack of width, neither of which can really be pinned on Jorginho. If we regularly start losing the battle in midfield, that is when he will need to be truly scrutinized. He was awful against Newcastle though i'll concede that one.

For balance i will say one thing is that he is only really suited to this brand of football, if we ever went pragmatic again he would never see the pitch.

He hasn't shown he can do it. Two examples from over 2000 completed passes? He rarely attempts those kind of long range passes and when he does they rarely come off. Against Newcastle in the first 10 minutes he tried to float a ball over the top to Willian on the left edge of their box and the pass was miles off, ran straight through to the keeper. I can't recall any other situations where he tried it in the game, though I do of course accept your point about needing players to make the runs.

Do we retain possession better under pressure now than we did under Conte? I think so and Jorginho has a part in that, but then so does every player that moves early to make an angle to receive the ball from the man under pressure. That's were the improvement lies IMO, (kudos to Sarri and the coaches there), not solely in the presence of Jorginho.

As for winning midfield battles I can't buy that at all Argo. Jorginho has looked very lightweight at times, and the tackling ability is lacking. Kante is still the player that makes the most telling contribution in that area IMO.

Lastly, fully agree that our immediate problems lie in the final third and those have to be addressed first. But that still doesn't stop me feeling disappointed from what we have seen from Jorginho so far.

Kane out until March.  I'm so sorry 

Out also Son for the Asian Cup, right ?

Just delli ali and erikson to be taken out by fulham today and woopeee ...wembley.....